woodley wrote:Understand, I'm not talking about the checks from behind near the boards. We all agree those are dangerous. I've seen a bunch of head contact penalties this year, not one of which had the "victim" (only for lack of a better term) hurt in the slightest.
There's no long term damage from being hit in the head? Hmmm, I guess science has it wrong. There are also concussions that go unnoticed/undiagnosed right away.
skiumah wrote:
I never said there's a safe way to hit someone in the head.
Are all slashes equal? No.
Is all contact to the head equal? Apparently so.
If you're a HS hockey watcher than you know what type of check I'm talking about. Where the kid initiates the hit and his hands follow through high. I'm not talking a big blow, just a glove in the face mask. It's illegal and should be a penalty. But should it be 5 minutes?
skiumah wrote:You know the check, the one that's not dangerous, but still hands hit the helmet.
Okay, so explain to me what the different between "not dangerous" and "safe" is...
Yes, I do; the checks were a player is hit in the head illegally.
You admit it's illegal, well hopefully this stops it from happening. Personally, I wouldn't have minded if this were only for checks to the back, but I'm fine with this.
Again, I've never used the word "safe". Does every contact to the head result in a concussion?
*Almost all contact to the head should result in penalty. I'm guessing we agree on that. But I'm not sure they should automatically be 5 minutes.
I understand the intent of the rule: Eliminate all contact to the head. I'm not against this. Unfortunately, I just don't see rationale behavior from fans, players and coaches when a major is called for the type of hit I described in previous posts. A 2 minute penalty- yes, 5 minutes- no. Fans will scream, "LET THEM PLAY!" I hope I'm wrong.
Everyone needs to make an effort. The ref needs to make the call; the player accepts responsibility (and hopefully learns); a coach accepts the call; fans respect the call, even if its against their team.
* Forward trying to go around a defenseman ducks to avoid the hit. D throws a legal hip check and hits the forward in the head. Now what?
Oldtimehockeyguy23 wrote:Don't get me wrong here, great intentions with this rule and it will clean up the game. But there is no doubt going to over-refereeing by these refs and kids will get 5 min majors for otherwise not dirty plays at all.
and:
Is it just me or does anybody find it troubling that the MSHSL can basically do whatever it wants? Why can't we have the coaches sign off on something like this??? It is a MAJOR change that should not just be made quickly with no approval.
Taking checking out of Peewee hockey, and now this drastic rule change is making the case more and more to me everyday, the hockey world has lost its mind. They are probably soon going to ban fighting in the NHL and more and more injuries will result of these actions!!!
Why can't people understand that point? You make these kind of rules it sends the message to the players "you will NOT get hit dangerously, so don't worry about getting hurt and do NOT protect yourself."
Instead, we should the message of "Hockey is dangerous, you will get punished for stupid, dangerous hits, but at the same time you NEED to protect yourself."
Hockey legends and greats are turning over in their graves today, and it is a sad, sad day for the state of hockey in Minnesota.
I find it hard to believe that this is the same poster. ???
I think the rule changes are good but his first statement is correct. Games will be over-reffed for a while. That will be hard to watch.
The only thing interesting about this topic is which will it be:
1) Many more calls and special teams play.
2) Far fewer calls for head shots, boarding, and dangerous hits.
We've all watched enough Mn HS hockey to know there are far more illegal hits than any other league or level of play.
The question I had to start asking myself was "show me a check where a player doesn't get a fist to the head or stick to the throat. There's enough footage out there... don't take my word - look for yourself. That seems to be the primary target in this league.
While I would like to see the Mn HS game cleaned up, I'm worried about implementing such a rule change midway through the season rather than more strict enforcement of what's already in the rulebook - then change the rules to a major in the offseason.
My money is on #2 listed above. Refs are already reluctant to call 5 min penaties and now they may be more reluctant to make any call at all. If I'm wrong and we see more calls, then we will see a lot of "make-up" minors.
Not blaming the guys in stripes, but they are the means to an end. Neither result will put the refs in a favorable light. I feel for these guys. Coaches need to step up here too.
Bottom line - I like the intent, but the timing and process is way off.
BTW - if a player tries to take advantage of this culture by "flopping" or drawing a 5 minute penatly - then the rule should change for them as well. 5 min (instead of 2 min) for unsportsman like conduct.
What if a 6-2 player goes to check a 5-6 player and has is arms and elbows down, but beacuse of the height difference he has contact with the head. Will this or should this be a 5 min major?
headsup wrote:The only thing interesting about this topic is which will it be:
1) Many more calls and special teams play.
2) Far fewer calls for head shots, boarding, and dangerous hits.
We've all watched enough Mn HS hockey to know there are far more illegal hits than any other league or level of play.
The question I had to start asking myself was "show me a check where a player doesn't get a fist to the head or stick to the throat. There's enough footage out there... don't take my word - look for yourself. That seems to be the primary target in this league.
While I would like to see the Mn HS game cleaned up, I'm worried about implementing such a rule change midway through the season rather than more strict enforcement of what's already in the rulebook - then change the rules to a major in the offseason.
My money is on #2 listed above. Refs are already reluctant to call 5 min penaties and now they may be more reluctant to make any call at all. If I'm wrong and we see more calls, then we will see a lot of "make-up" minors.
Not blaming the guys in stripes, but they are the means to an end. Neither result will put the refs in a favorable light. I feel for these guys. Coaches need to step up here too.
Bottom line - I like the intent, but the timing and process is way off.
I am largely in agreement with this post. How often do we see referees call major penalties in high school games? Will they really start to call them regularly? Consider me a skeptic.
I think the new emphasis on head contact is a pretty good model for how to enact a rule designed to enhance safety. Early this season there was a very noticeable increase in head contact penalties; now that teams are learning, they are starting to drop off again. The MSHSL deserves credit for that.
woodley wrote:Understand, I'm not talking about the checks from behind near the boards. We all agree those are dangerous. I've seen a bunch of head contact penalties this year, not one of which had the "victim" (only for lack of a better term) hurt in the slightest.
There's no long term damage from being hit in the head? Hmmm, I guess science has it wrong. There are also concussions that go unnoticed/undiagnosed right away.
skiumah wrote:
I never said there's a safe way to hit someone in the head.
Are all slashes equal? No.
Is all contact to the head equal? Apparently so.
If you're a HS hockey watcher than you know what type of check I'm talking about. Where the kid initiates the hit and his hands follow through high. I'm not talking a big blow, just a glove in the face mask. It's illegal and should be a penalty. But should it be 5 minutes?
skiumah wrote:You know the check, the one that's not dangerous, but still hands hit the helmet.
Okay, so explain to me what the different between "not dangerous" and "safe" is...
Yes, I do; the checks were a player is hit in the head illegally.
You admit it's illegal, well hopefully this stops it from happening. Personally, I wouldn't have minded if this were only for checks to the back, but I'm fine with this.
As to the concussions. . . how many of those came from what is being penalized as head contact. Not what I've seen and I watch an awful lot of HS hockey. The existing (for 1 more day) rule not only allowed, but directed, that if a penalty such as head contact resulted in injury, a major and game misconduct was to be assessed.
My primary point was that MSHSL has reacted rashly. I'd be willing to bet that they can't even tell you how many head contact penalties were assessed, much less those that resulted in injury. How do you proclaim that you're preventing injuries when you haven't done your due diligence!!! We are all guessing here. . . the facts haven't been laid out.
Once again, hockey has let the influence of good intentions take away from the game. I am all for the protection of the players.
Years ago when I played, any penalty that drew blood was a major penalty. We had no facemasks! If a stick came up and hit the face and it drew blood, major penalty. If an elbow was thrown and the player bled, it was a major penalty.
Can you imagine the blood that would be evident on the ice with some of the checks these kids nowdays are throwing at each other along the boards! Yikes! There would be blood all over the ice!
Get rid of the facemasks and put the rule back into affect that checking can occur 3/4 of the ice sheet.
Why did MN Hockey change that rule??? Because that is what the NHL plays.
I am all for protecting the players, while still keeping hockey a physical game...but also harshly penalizing goonish type of plays....but I would hate to be a HS ref right now - as I can foresee issues with these changes being implemented without an off season to fine tune. I love the idea but hope it can be worked out ok with the heightened awareness we have due to recent tragic events...
The one thing that worries me about calling a major for any contact to the head is when a tall guy (say 6'3") applies an otherwise clean shoulder check to a little guy (say 5'8"). Unless the tall guy is a little hunched over and the little guy isn't, the tall guy's shoulder pad (or upper arm area) is going to come in contact with the little guy's head.
I know this won't happen all that often, but eventually such a major is going to really cost a team a win, say in a section final or in the State Tournament. That said, I do think the benefits of this rule change outweigh such negative possibilities.
The MSHSL is usually very deliberate in their thinking and implementation of rules, I think they really went overboard here. A mid season rule change to the NFHS rule book based on 1 incedent no matter how severe still is an over reaction.
I fear this will just lead to more injuries as players show less willingness to protect themselves and more willingness to lead with the head.
goldy313 wrote:The MSHSL is usually very deliberate in their thinking and implementation of rules, I think they really went overboard here. A mid season rule change to the NFHS rule book based on 1 incedent no matter how severe still is an over reaction.
I fear this will just lead to more injuries as players show less willingness to protect themselves and more willingness to lead with the head.
I do agree that this is a over reaction, but there is absolutely no place for a check from behind. Is there a statistics from the MSHSL or Mn Hockey on these severe injuries or does anybody know of other instances that have happened over the years? I can't recall any myself.
Oldtimehockeyguy23 wrote:Is it just me or does anybody find it troubling that the MSHSL can basically do whatever it wants? Why can't we have the coaches sign off on something like this??? It is a MAJOR change that should not just be made quickly with no approval.
Taking checking out of Peewee hockey, and now this drastic rule change is making the case more and more to me everyday, the hockey world has lost its mind. They are probably soon going to ban fighting in the NHL and more and more injuries will result of these actions!!!
Why can't people understand that point? You make these kind of rules it sends the message to the players "you will NOT get hit dangerously, so don't worry about getting hurt and do NOT protect yourself."
Instead, we should the message of "Hockey is dangerous, you will get punished for stupid, dangerous hits, but at the same time you NEED to protect yourself."
Hockey legends and greats are turning over in their graves today, and it is a sad, sad day for the state of hockey in Minnesota.
Everyone needs to remember this is not coming from the MSHSL on their own. The coaching and officiating associations directly tied to the MSHSL have unanimously agreed with all changes.
Boarding is going to be a bit more difficult to call, since that can be given to a player delivering a legal check. The end result of the check creates the penalty.
The head contact major will be interesting. We've been seeing a higher number of head contact penatlies. I wonder if that will continue now that it's 5 minutes. Although there are other versions like elbowing and such, if there is contact above the shoulders, head contact is the directed call.
The next couple of weeks will certainly be interesting. Especially with a zero tolerance for negative feedback for the players bench.
Sorry Hound Fans....this is the only thing that could stop DE from winning state....Randolph, good luck; 5 minute power plays neutralize talent. Hope I'm wrong but have a hunch this will be interesting. GB
I don't like taking discretion out of the refs hands. However, too many refs call cross-check instead of check from behind (2 & 10) So maybe the refs are at fault?
But I liken this to a change calling every offsides intentional, or every puck over the glass intentional delay of game.
My opinion is this week's games will be crazy. Then will settle down to refs calling cross-checking instead of check from behind
refs will have to much say in the outcome of the games. This is hockey there will be contact. I saw a couple games last week where the refs are already calling anything that is a good check. I also saw alot of players not playing the body at all when they use to in the same situation. Call the game the way the rules are and you wont have to change anything. If you keep your hands down hit with your shoulders or hips and not from behind than nothing should change. i can see it already where a player makes a perfect but hard hit and they are going to the box for 5. I also think this will make the elite players leave the High School game if the other leagues do not make the same changes. College recruiters will want to see how players play when there is physical play.
I know this may sound crazy, but how about also penalizing players that put themselves in dangerous situations. 5 minutes for both the checker and the prototypical kid that turns into the boards once he knows he being checked.
As a parent this drives me crazy. About half of these checks have mutual fault where the guy protecting the puck figures he can just turn at the last second.
If the goal is to "penalize to teach" then be consistent. Sometimes you have to protect the players from themselves.
Sorry... starting to sound like the government.
All sarcasm aside... let them play and use the rulebook as it was intended.
Until the MSHSL assigns the officials to do the games regardless of the coaches input not much in the long run will change. They are just doing a CYA and for a few weeks there will be a strong show. By the time of the state tournament the whistles will disappear.
There is a need for a state wide assignment of referees and also a state wide evaluation of officials by qualified people not the coaches.Reward the officials that call the rule book and get rid of those that do not.
I did not grow up playing hockey but have enjoyed watching my son grow playing the sport. The one thing I do not understand about the sport is the acceptance by the hockey community of discretional enforcement of safety type penalties. In football, if seen be the ref, a block in the back is always a clip and if you tackle somebody with your hand on the facemasking is called.
Would the game change if a check to the back or boarding is always called regardless of the intent, the time remaining or who got the last penalty? Probably yes. Kids and coaches will adjust. But if there was consistent nondiscretional enforcement of the safety type penalties I think it would change the game for the better.
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It comes down to whether the refs are going to properly enforce to new rules... The refs NEED to be held more accountable for their calls. Put more pressure on them to make the right calls/decisions. And of course, no laws can prevent freak accidents.
headsup wrote:BTW - if a player tries to take advantage of this culture by "flopping" or drawing a 5 minute penatly - then the rule should change for them as well. 5 min (instead of 2 min) for unsportsman like conduct.
starmvp wrote:It comes down to whether the refs are going to properly enforce to new rules... The refs NEED to be held more accountable for their calls. Put more pressure on them to make the right calls/decisions. And of course, no laws can prevent freak accidents.
Gee, maybe we could have the fans vote on all the calls officials make?
That would certainly "put more pressure" on that part of the game, since this all comes down to how refs make their calls...
starmvp wrote:It comes down to whether the refs are going to properly enforce to new rules... The refs NEED to be held more accountable for their calls. Put more pressure on them to make the right calls/decisions. And of course, no laws can prevent freak accidents.
Gee, maybe we could have the fans vote on all the calls officials make?
That would certainly "put more pressure" on that part of the game, since this all comes down to how refs make their calls...
Ref's names should be displayed somewhere.... Game sheet.... I don't care
starmvp wrote:It comes down to whether the refs are going to properly enforce to new rules... The refs NEED to be held more accountable for their calls. Put more pressure on them to make the right calls/decisions. And of course, no laws can prevent freak accidents.
Gee, maybe we could have the fans vote on all the calls officials make?
That would certainly "put more pressure" on that part of the game, since this all comes down to how refs make their calls...
Ref's names should be displayed somewhere.... Game sheet.... I don't care
What benefit would that provide? How would that help make them more accountable?
The officials names are not secret. There are people tied to the school, as well as coaches that have those names and can follow up directly if there are problems or questions.
Quote from the High School League staff member in today's article""Even if you don't have data, you can't argue with our rationale, which is safety of the students," Perry said."
So we don't know if the 2 and 10 for checking from behind helped or hurt so lets make the penalty more severe and hope this helps.
I still contend we are training our players to put themselves in dangerous situations.
