Alternatives to AAA?

[my 7th spam profile(O-tc)]

Patrick Kane stories are great. You like the "we did it" one, while I favor a few others. Like beating up the cabbie ....

You're right. I do prefer to focus on the positive.

Others enjoy the negatives, when people fail, especially succesful people. It makes them feel better about themselves.

Not sure that training out 240 days a year as opposed to 360 keeps him from punching a cab driver, but if it helps you sleep at night then power to you.

[my 7th spam profile(O-tc)]

Dismiss expert opinions all you want ...

Minnesota Hockey has been dismissing expert opinion for the past 4 decades, yet you hail them as the glorious blueprint.

So which is it, do you accept expert opinion or dismiss it? Or like most people, do you only accept expert opinion that fits your brand and dismiss that which does not?

[royals dad]

What is your perfect balance (ice time) if your son says to you that he wishes to play in the NHL?

Or have you told your kid that it's not possible and don't even try to reach your goals?

Youth Hockey is an investment that pays back.... The "NETWORK" of friends alone is priceless and there are plenty that have careers in Hockey that didn't make the big show. Aim high and you will more than likely be happy with where you land.

My son is a mite, and is the youngest of 3 hockey kids in a family. His balance is different because of all the factors that go into raising a kid. He wants to play for the Twins, Wild, U, and his HS team. I don't discourage his dreams but I expect that it is more likely he goes to college on my dime. Sometimes I wish I had his schedule, this summer it included a baseball league, a golf camp, a hockey camp, football camp, and now a football league just starting up. My oldest on the other hand is 15 and spent her first summer with just hockey for sports her balance has shifted a ton the last few years. I believe that the best way to do it is to get them involved in a lot at a young age then let them start to focus as they get into junior high.

I wasn't saying I had the perfect recipe for anyone, I just thought the advice some people were giving to the poster with a good young hockey player was flat out bad. Anyone who says get an 9 year old in an arena for 365 days, playing on multiple teams, exceeding the rest mandates by doing more than 1 tourney at a time.... That is recipe for disaster in the majority (my opinion) of cases. Why not follow what USA Hockey suggests in the ADM Guidelines.

I also get the trap a hockey parent in places like Edina is in, if you don't specialize early your kid will be left behind by all the Kane parents. I grew up there and understand the pressure. I believe that MM exists to serve those parents. I just hate the people who try and sell the NHL to them, maybe Bernie doesn't even go there anymore it has been years since I heard the pitch. There are maybe 10 kids who are 9 years old in MN right now who will some day be drafted of them 3 or 4 might play the NHL of them 1 might have a long career. Why sacrifice a great childhood for those odds? Think about it are you jealous of a kid who will get 300+ hours of hockey practice this year? Some clinics, maybe a summer team, skating lessons, all good but get some balance as well. Just some forum advice not a recipe.

[my 7th spam profile(O-tc)]

What is your perfect balance (ice time) if your son says to you that he wishes to play in the NHL?

Or have you told your kid that it's not possible and don't even try to reach your goals?

Youth Hockey is an investment that pays back.... The "NETWORK" of friends alone is priceless and there are plenty that have careers in Hockey that didn't make the big show. Aim high and you will more than likely be happy with where you land.

My son is a mite, and is the youngest of 3 hockey kids in a family. His balance is different because of all the factors that go into raising a kid. He wants to play for the Twins, Wild, U, and his HS team. I don't discourage his dreams but I expect that it is more likely he goes to college on my dime. Sometimes I wish I had his schedule, this summer it included a baseball league, a golf camp, a hockey camp, football camp, and now a football league just starting up. My oldest on the other hand is 15 and spent her first summer with just hockey for sports her balance has shifted a ton the last few years. I believe that the best way to do it is to get them involved in a lot at a young age then let them start to focus as they get into junior high.

I wasn't saying I had the perfect recipe for anyone, I just thought the advice some people were giving to the poster with a good young hockey player was flat out bad. Anyone who says get an 9 year old in an arena for 365 days, playing on multiple teams, exceeding the rest mandates by doing more than 1 tourney at a time.... That is recipe for disaster in the majority (my opinion) of cases. Why not follow what USA Hockey suggests in the ADM Guidelines.

I also get the trap a hockey parent in places like Edina is in, if you don't specialize early your kid will be left behind by all the Kane parents. I grew up there and understand the pressure. I believe that MM exists to serve those parents. I just hate the people who try and sell the NHL to them, maybe Bernie doesn't even go there anymore it has been years since I heard the pitch. There are maybe 10 kids who are 9 years old in MN right now who will some day be drafted of them 3 or 4 might play the NHL of them 1 might have a long career. Why sacrifice a great childhood for those odds? Think about it are you jealous of a kid who will get 300+ hours of hockey practice this year? Some clinics, maybe a summer team, skating lessons, all good but get some balance as well. Just some forum advice not a recipe.

Sounds like you have formulated a plan that balances the interests of your children and your family and incorporates your family values. That is the challenge for all parents and your approach sounds like it works well for your family.

Now imagine for a minute if you had outsiders constantly second guessing your parenting, ridiculing your choices and dismissing your values. You don't need to leave this forum to see 1,000's of examples of exactly that.

Considering we are talking about sports/physical activity, isn't a more reasonable approach to "live and let live" and respect the choices of other players/families, even if we disagree?

If we can agree on that simple premise, then the logical next step on an administrative level, is to facsilitate different options and avenues, not dictate one model over others.

[Hard water fan]

Not to fuel the fire, but I am curious- why is athletic develoment different than, let's say the arts. Take a kid who loves to play the piano. Do we limit their practice time, or encourage him/her to play a couple of different instruments to have a more diverse understanding of music theory? No we don't. Elite level musicians will tell you that they averaged between 3 and 4 hours practice per day. How about learning a language? Does the rule apply to that as well? Studies have shown that in all learning, immersion is the most effective way of development. I think everyone would agree that pushing or forcing a child has the potential to result in a lack of desire or development. But nurturing or enabling the desire is different, isn't it? If the kid is willing to practice and learn, that should be the determining factor. Another point- isn't the lesson of dogged-determination and commitment to become the best a good lesson? If those lessons can be incorporated into a schedule that doesn't tax a kid emotionally or physically to the point of being unhealthy, why not? Ironically, all of this discussion revolves around competition- competition for teams, schools, choices and success in life. Ultimately, that's what we are trying to do as parents. Help our kids become "the best", while competing with others who are in the same boat. That's why AAA has taken off so big in MN. Few admit that they don't want to be left behind, and in order to compete with those who do, it's almost neccessary.

[HockeyDad41]

Just listen to your kids. They will tell you when enough is enough.

My kid has been on the ice every day for the last 4 years and so far so good. Sometimes it only takes me an hour to find where he has hidden his gear.

[DMom]

I recently went to a school reunion and was having a conversation with a person who was an elite level swimmer. Truly, elite. Said he swam through two years of college, got out of the pool and has not been in a pool since. He said his kids swim for fun and they'll want Dad to get in the pool and he will not. Has not...in more years than I want to admit to.

I asked him if he thought my hockey kids would feel the same way in the future and he just looked at me and said, 'take them swimming tomorrow'.

Now, you know what? How many of you immediately thought...but that's only because there's no professional swimming league? so it's the money? Regardless, I think it's tragic that someone could love something so much and come to hate it.

[mackjogger]

Just listen to your kids. They will tell you when enough is enough.

My kid has been on the ice every day for the last 4 years and so far so good. Sometimes it only takes me an hour to find where he has hidden his gear.

[mnhcp]

What is your perfect balance (ice time) if your son says to you that he wishes to play in the NHL?

Or have you told your kid that it's not possible and don't even try to reach your goals?

Youth Hockey is an investment that pays back.... The "NETWORK" of friends alone is priceless and there are plenty that have careers in Hockey that didn't make the big show. Aim high and you will more than likely be happy with where you land.

My son is a mite, and is the youngest of 3 hockey kids in a family. His balance is different because of all the factors that go into raising a kid. He wants to play for the Twins, Wild, U, and his HS team. I don't discourage his dreams but I expect that it is more likely he goes to college on my dime. Sometimes I wish I had his schedule, this summer it included a baseball league, a golf camp, a hockey camp, football camp, and now a football league just starting up. My oldest on the other hand is 15 and spent her first summer with just hockey for sports her balance has shifted a ton the last few years. I believe that the best way to do it is to get them involved in a lot at a young age then let them start to focus as they get into junior high.

I wasn't saying I had the perfect recipe for anyone, I just thought the advice some people were giving to the poster with a good young hockey player was flat out bad. Anyone who says get an 9 year old in an arena for 365 days, playing on multiple teams, exceeding the rest mandates by doing more than 1 tourney at a time.... That is recipe for disaster in the majority (my opinion) of cases. Why not follow what USA Hockey suggests in the ADM Guidelines.

I also get the trap a hockey parent in places like Edina is in, if you don't specialize early your kid will be left behind by all the Kane parents. I grew up there and understand the pressure. I believe that MM exists to serve those parents. I just hate the people who try and sell the NHL to them, maybe Bernie doesn't even go there anymore it has been years since I heard the pitch. There are maybe 10 kids who are 9 years old in MN right now who will some day be drafted of them 3 or 4 might play the NHL of them 1 might have a long career. Why sacrifice a great childhood for those odds? Think about it are you jealous of a kid who will get 300+ hours of hockey practice this year? Some clinics, maybe a summer team, skating lessons, all good but get some balance as well. Just some forum advice not a recipe.

Why is it usually assumed 300 hours = not balanced? Some can some can't. I'm just saying!

[my 7th spam profile(O-tc)]

Studies have shown that in all learning, immersion is the most effective way of development. I think everyone would agree that pushing or forcing a child has the potential to result in a lack of desire or development. But nurturing or enabling the desire is different, isn't it? If the kid is willing to practice and learn, that should be the determining factor.

Now that just hit the nail on the head!

[my 7th spam profile(O-tc)]

Just listen to your kids. They will tell you when enough is enough.

BINGO!

[mnhcp]

Not to fuel the fire, but I am curious- why is athletic develoment different than, let's say the arts. Take a kid who loves to play the piano. Do we limit their practice time, or encourage him/her to play a couple of different instruments to have a more diverse understanding of music theory? No we don't. Elite level musicians will tell you that they averaged between 3 and 4 hours practice per day. How about learning a language? Does the rule apply to that as well? Studies have shown that in all learning, immersion is the most effective way of development. I think everyone would agree that pushing or forcing a child has the potential to result in a lack of desire or development. But nurturing or enabling the desire is different, isn't it? If the kid is willing to practice and learn, that should be the determining factor. Another point- isn't the lesson of dogged-determination and commitment to become the best a good lesson? If those lessons can be incorporated into a schedule that doesn't tax a kid emotionally or physically to the point of being unhealthy, why not? Ironically, all of this discussion revolves around competition- competition for teams, schools, choices and success in life. Ultimately, that's what we are trying to do as parents. Help our kids become "the best", while competing with others who are in the same boat. That's why AAA has taken off so big in MN. Few admit that they don't want to be left behind, and in order to compete with those who do, it's almost neccessary.

I had to cut back on my kids homework and reading, I didn't want them to suffer "burn out".

[my 7th spam profile(O-tc)]

I think it's tragic that someone could love something so much and come to hate it.

But is it such a TRAGEDY? Isn't that a little dramatic. A TRAGEDY is losing a son to a foreign war.

Having a child switch interests in past times doesn't qualify as a tragedy. In fact, we all switch interests in life. We switch interests in girlfriends, spouses, houses, cities, hobbies, some even switch genders. Those things are just part and parcel of life. Potentially switching hobbies is nothing to shield them from.

I used to have a taste for liver but now it turns my stomache. So what?

[O-townClown]

Sounds like you have formulated a plan that balances the interests of your children and your family and incorporates your family values. That is the challenge for all parents and your approach sounds like it works well for your family.

Now imagine for a minute if you had outsiders constantly second guessing your parenting, ridiculing your choices and dismissing your values. You don't need to leave this forum to see 1,000's of examples of exactly that.

Considering we are talking about sports/physical activity, isn't a more reasonable approach to "live and let live" and respect the choices of other players/families, even if we disagree?

If we can agree on that simple premise, then the logical next step on an administrative level, is to facsilitate different options and avenues, not dictate one model over others.

As long as 'we' isn't a group that includes you, I guess you're fine. Your 11 posts on this board are doozies. In a couple of the first ones you held Patrick Kane up as the model. Someone (me) simply pointed out the obvious Paul-Harvey-rest-of-the-story and you lob the allegation that some people (implication: me) revel in the misery of others to make themselves feel better.

Ah....okay. What happened to respect others even though you disagree?

Nobody ever pretended there is a perfect system anywhere, let alone the Minnesota Hockey association model. It works very well, however, which is why it has not been overhauled. For those seeking additional ice time, there is no shortage of opportunities. Fools will argue, but I'm not sure what the argument is. Minnesota Hockey hasn't changed the community model yet and doesn't appear to be.

If someone says they know better, does pointing out that a majority disagree constitute "second guessing" in your book? Seems like it is just sharing information. Our program lost a family this year to the lure of AAA hockey because the kid was too good to play with some lesser kids. Then the boy entered house league...where he'll play with the same darn kids the family was trying to get away from.

What I see is people falling into some common traps and then saying things to rationalize their behavior. Nobody says every kid burns out on hockey, do they? What I always hear is that the more you push at a young age the more likely it is kids will eventually burn out. A very general statement.

Yet you seem to disagree with it.

Or maybe I just never hear the scores of people that are telling you such behavior is flat-out wrong and harmful.

I love your profile. You played at a high level, your kid played at the highest (NHL I assume) and Patrick Kane - who has to be less than half your age - is your friend. That's awesome.

[mackjogger]

I think it's tragic that someone could love something so much and come to hate it.

But is it such a TRAGEDY? Isn't that a little dramatic. A TRAGEDY is losing a son to a foreign war.

Having a child switch interests in past times doesn't qualify as a tragedy. In fact, we all switch interests in life. We switch interests in girlfriends, spouses, houses, cities, hobbies, some even switch genders. Those things are just part and parcel of life. Potentially switching hobbies is nothing to shield them from.

I used to have a taste for liver but now it turns my stomache. So what?

Well said

[Hard water fan]

Try it with bacon. Everything is better with bacon.

[my 7th spam profile(O-tc)]

Why is it usually assumed 300 hours = not balanced? Some can some can't. I'm just saying!

Right. The other assumption is that kids skating 10 hours a week through the summer have no time for fishing or baseball or football or going to the beach. Those I know have time for all of that. Some choose to do it all. Some like to laze around the house as well. It's called balance, but a balance based on PERSONAL CHOICE not someone elses idea of what their balance should or shouldn't be.

[my 7th spam profile(O-tc)]

Your 11 posts on this board are doozies. In a couple of the first ones you held Patrick Kane up as the model.

Someone (me) simply pointed out the obvious Paul-Harvey-rest-of-the-story and you lob the allegation that some people (implication: me) revel in the misery of others to make themselves feel better.

Ah....okay. What happened to respect others even though you disagree?

Nobody ever pretended there is a perfect system anywhere, let alone the Minnesota Hockey association model. It works very well, however, which is why it has not been overhauled. For those seeking additional ice time, there is no shortage of opportunities. Fools will argue, but I'm not sure what the argument is. Minnesota Hockey hasn't changed the community model yet and doesn't appear to be.

What I always hear is that the more you push at a young age the more likely it is kids will eventually burn out. A very general statement.

Yet you seem to disagree with it.

Or maybe I just never hear the scores of people that are telling you such behavior is flat-out wrong and harmful.

I love your profile. You played at a high level, your kid played at the highest (NHL I assume) and Patrick Kane - who has to be less than half your age - is your friend. That's awesome.

Oh Mr. Clown, there you go again.

I never held Patrick Kane up as a model. I used him as an example that his parents knew what was best for him, just as I know what is best for my kids and I am sure you know what is best for yours.

I never lobbed any allegation. YOU SAID, and I quote ...

Patrick Kane stories are great. You like the "we did it" one, while I favor a few others. Like beating up the cabbie and refusing to pay the fare

Now, although I'm sure the Paul Harvey reference left you feeling very intellectual as you hit the Submit button, I am not sure how an altercation with a cab driver is a "rest-of-the-story" scenario for Patrick Kane's hockey training or anyones potential hockey training. As far as "reveling in the misery", you are the one that stated rather than the positive "we did it" story, you FAVORED the beating up a cabbie story. I am just commenting on your own words, so don't try and somehow attribute them to me. I'm not sure what that story has to do with his training, which is why I said, (washing my hands of it)
"Not sure that training out 240 days a year as opposed to 360 keeps him from punching a cab driver, but if it helps you sleep at night then power to you."

As far as disagreeing that pushing kids equals burnout - well, not once did I ever say that any kid should ever be pushed. My words are to NOT PUSH A CHILD. In fact, I advocate AGAINST PUSHING KIDS, as do most of us who deal with youth players on a daily basis. My OBSERVATION is that the elite kids that I see making it DON'T NEED TO BE PUSHED. In fact, THEY DO THE PUSHING.

Every kid is different. Some like to play in season. Some like a little extra. Some like a lot extra. I advocate listening to your child and treating them as individuals on a case by case basis. If he/she WANTS TO PLAY then LET THEM PLAY. If they WANT TO TRAIN, then LET THEM TRAIN. I won't re-tread my past posts, but your characterization that I disagree with the statement "that the more you push at a young age the more likely it is kids will eventually burn out" is just patently false.

I also never said that I was friends with Patrick Kane. This is just another example of you putting words in the mouths of others to somehow rationalize your own case. In going through your posts I see this is somewhat of an M.O. of yours.

In fact, you couldn't get through this post without making offensive remarks to those who disagree with you, using the condescending holier-than-thou verbiage

Fools will argue, but I'm not sure what the argument is.

Well the argument(s) have been made and made clear on many occasions. The fact you haven't grasped them yet does nothing to diminish the validity of the argument(s) but speaks volumes about yourself.

Just as you write ...

Or maybe I just never hear the scores of people that are telling you such behavior is flat-out wrong and harmful.

Perhaps you should go back and read the scores of your own posts.

I will ask respectfully now, don't chime in unless you have something positive to contribute.

[coachmom]

I am hearing so many different opinions. What if the kid has the genetic makeup, and the desire to suceed? What do you do with that kid? Let him play or hold him back?

[Benito Juarez]

[Benito Juarez]

I am hearing so many different opinions. What if the kid has the genetic makeup, and the desire to suceed? What do you do with that kid? Let him play or hold him back?

He's 8 years old.

Genetics? Desire? Hold him back?



Wow.

[luckyEPDad]

Not to fuel the fire, but I am curious- why is athletic develoment different than, let's say the arts. Take a kid who loves to play the piano. Do we limit their practice time, or encourage him/her to play a couple of different instruments to have a more diverse understanding of music theory?

When I read this I thought how all the professional musicians I know (not a huge sampling) play multiple instruments. Though about how most of the musicians I listen too play multiple instruments. Did a little digging and found that a Bachelor of Music degree usually requires you to play a second instrument. Even as early as 6th grade band percussionists are encouraged to learn piano.

You need to come up with a better example.

[O-townClown]

The great friends I have made through the game have the common thread of MEGA ice time. Wether it was the Brotens who lived and breathed hockey on the ponds of northern Minnesota or the Sutters who played till midnight every night on the family farm where their father had poured a rink. The common thread is ICE TIME and lots of it. I believe the 10,000 hour rule is golden.

In fact a friend of mine who now plays for the Chicago Black Hawks had a very ambitious father who set his goals at age 10 of 300 games per year, 1000 goals scored and 360 days of ice per year.

Spam profile guy:

My mistake then. You said you set up multiple profiles and on the same day there were some posts from Multi Tasker with the same Kane stories. Incorrectly, I assumed you posted it.

Over the past two summers there has been an argument that Tier I or club or some alternative to community-based hockey is coming and everyone else just has to accept it. Thirsty to learn, I've attacked the argument and given ample opportunity for those to explain for the benefit of all how this will happen. You say I don't understand, when in fact I do. I've heard every conceivable benefit and every possible justification for why this will happen.

And I still don't see sufficient proof that it is coming. If this is somehow unfair play on an informational message board I guess I'll have to read the protocol book. Private messages in the last week with a mod and two rather prolific posters seem to indicate I'm not alone.

When I tell you something is happening, feel free to challenge that belief and if I can't explain the position you should ignore it. Kinda how it works.

One poster knows how Tier I hockey will be played in Minnesota next year because his son is a part of the movement but he just can't share the deets with us yet. All ears.

[Ugottobekiddingme]

The great friends I have made through the game have the common thread of MEGA ice time. Wether it was the Brotens who lived and breathed hockey on the ponds of northern Minnesota or the Sutters who played till midnight every night on the family farm where their father had poured a rink. The common thread is ICE TIME and lots of it. I believe the 10,000 hour rule is golden.

In fact a friend of mine who now plays for the Chicago Black Hawks had a very ambitious father who set his goals at age 10 of 300 games per year, 1000 goals scored and 360 days of ice per year.

Spam profile guy:

My mistake then. You said you set up multiple profiles and on the same day there were some posts from Multi Tasker with the same Kane stories. Incorrectly, I assumed you posted it.

Over the past two summers there has been an argument that Tier I or club or some alternative to community-based hockey is coming and everyone else just has to accept it. Thirsty to learn, I've attacked the argument and given ample opportunity for those to explain for the benefit of all how this will happen. You say I don't understand, when in fact I do. I've heard every conceivable benefit and every possible justification for why this will happen.

And I still don't see sufficient proof that it is coming. If this is somehow unfair play on an informational message board I guess I'll have to read the protocol book. Private messages in the last week with a mod and two rather prolific posters seem to indicate I'm not alone.

When I tell you something is happening, feel free to challenge that belief and if I can't explain the position you should ignore it. Kinda how it works.

One poster knows how Tier I hockey will be played in Minnesota next year because his son is a part of the movement but he just can't share the deets with us yet. All ears.

O-Clown...your a bright guy, please explain "what" is happening and I will respond. Always looking for a new perspective because the swamp land in Florida is driving investments in the wrong direction...but you already know that.

[DMom]

I think it's tragic that someone could love something so much and come to hate it.

But is it such a TRAGEDY? Isn't that a little dramatic. A TRAGEDY is losing a son to a foreign war.

Having a child switch interests in past times doesn't qualify as a tragedy. In fact, we all switch interests in life. We switch interests in girlfriends, spouses, houses, cities, hobbies, some even switch genders. Those things are just part and parcel of life. Potentially switching hobbies is nothing to shield them from.

I used to have a taste for liver but now it turns my stomache. So what?

I think when a marriage ends it is tragic, I think when someone switches genders they have probably lived a pretty tragic life up until that point. I'm right there with the rest of you, my kids are on the ice everyday (except the youngest because we can't afford it, but Doc says he's going to be 6' 5" so we are thinking that if we just continue to let his brother's pound the crap out of him and make sure he has good edges, he'll be okay), and if they aren't skating they are lifting. I'm just hoping to be able to afford Wild season tickets someday (and have the time to go to games) and I am hoping at least one of my son's still wants to watch a little hockey. Until than I will continue to question most of my parenting decisions....'maybe I shouldn't have him take the College in Schools classes, because we don't want him messing up any eligibility--oh wait the only way to the nhl is NOT through college' I hope you are all having that argument in 7 years, that your kids are still as good as they are today and that you are all still enjoying it. Though I can still worry, it's what I do.