Blades:Do they need out of state players to help them lose?

[offside14]

The question is why would you need to look to other states when you have better players in your own back yard right here in MN.

I wasn't raised here, and quite frankly, can't figure out why it is taboo to talk about nahl and minnesota aaa tier 1 hockey as year round option vs the "Blessed" MSHSHL and the state tourney and association hockey. When there are so many that seem to think grabbing out of state kids in the summer is ok, essentially opening borders to create a kind of tier 1 appoach to summer hockey.

This is not meant to condescending but I don't get the two personalities of minnesota hockey.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Just know that Minnesota Made is an entity who's purpose is to turn a profit. Nothing wrong with that ...

Right. Among other things.

This is one of the real strengths of the Minnesota Made model. Like any efficient business, it MUST make a profit to stay in existence. This in turn forces it to offer value to it's customers, as with any business, ultimately you are only as good as your product. It's a very American approach to hockey development. Getting paid for RESULTS.

That said, Minnesota Made management has shown considerable business ethics and strong principles when it comes to it's AAA programs, refusing to abandon it's core philosophies even at the expense of losing customers (i.e. 95 & 96 Machine teams). Where lesser programs might bow to the demands of a small group of customers, the Made has chosen to stand on it's core philosophies. This type of big picture management will continue the success of Minnesota Made for many many years, much to the benefit of it's larger core customer base.

Indeed, the owners and management at Minnesota Made have achieved for themselves something that we all want for ourselves and our children. They get to go to work everyday at a job they have a true passion for - in this case, hockey, kids and development. Like musicians, athletes and celebrities, they have the best of all worlds. It's often said that going to work everyday at a job you love is not work at all.

It's no wonder the owner of the Made is a focal point criticism, born of jealousy, as he truly has achieved something we all strive for, in his own life and for his family.

As it relates to youth hockey players in Minnesota, the success of Minnesota Made and it's principals is a big success for Minnesota hockey as well and all who enjoy the programs it produces.

Good for them.

For the sake of many Minnesota youths, I wish them many many years of good profit and good business.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Also ... just my two cents ... the moderators of this forum may want to consider Topic Headings ... the heading of this thread for example ...

"Blades:Do they need out of state players to help them lose?"

This is a repugnant title. Obviously posted by an adult to ridicule children with whom's parents he/she disagrees with. It has no place for
in a civil discussion - especially one involving our children.

Without stifling any 5th ammendment rights, we ought to hold members of this forum to at least some level of decency or decorum. This type of language or inuendo has no place.

I would appeal to moderators to give some thought to removing titles who's purpose is to ridicule, mud sling or otherwise present children as pawns in adult ego battles.

The title ought to be just changed to something more accurate, like this;

"eastondude: I am so miserable and insecure I attack children to boost my ego"

... at least then we know the topic is really about

[HockeyDad41]

Just know that Minnesota Made is an entity who's purpose is to turn a profit. Nothing wrong with that ...

Right. Among other things.

This is one of the real strengths of the Minnesota Made model. Like any efficient business, it MUST make a profit to stay in existence. This in turn forces it to offer value to it's customers, as with any business, ultimately you are only as good as your product. It's a very American approach to hockey development. Getting paid for RESULTS.

That said, Minnesota Made management has shown considerable business ethics and strong principles when it comes to it's AAA programs, refusing to abandon it's core philosophies even at the expense of losing customers (i.e. 95 & 96 Machine teams). Where lesser programs might bow to the demands of a small group of customers, the Made has chosen to stand on it's core philosophies. This type of big picture management will continue the success of Minnesota Made for many many years, much to the benefit of it's larger core customer base.

Indeed, the owners and management at Minnesota Made have achieved for themselves something that we all want for ourselves and our children. They get to go to work everyday at a job they have a true passion for - in this case, hockey, kids and development. Like musicians, athletes and celebrities, they have the best of all worlds. It's often said that going to work everyday at a job you love is not work at all.

It's no wonder the owner of the Made is a focal point criticism, born of jealousy, as he truly has achieved something we all strive for, in his own life and for his family.

As it relates to youth hockey players in Minnesota, the success of Minnesota Made and it's principals is a big success for Minnesota hockey as well and all who enjoy the programs it produces.

Good for them.

For the sake of many Minnesota youths, I wish them many many years of good profit and good business.

Wow - great response. I can't wait to see if the hardcore haters can spin this one.

[Toomuchtoosoon]

That said, Minnesota Made management has shown considerable business ethics and strong principles when it comes to it's AAA programs, refusing to abandon it's core philosophies even at the expense of losing customers (i.e. 95 & 96 Machine teams). Where lesser programs might bow to the demands of a small group of customers, the Made has chosen to stand on it's core philosophies. This type of big picture management will continue the success of Minnesota Made for many many years, much to the benefit of it's larger core customer base.

However, when you continue to use these teams as examples of what you can achieve if you continue to participate, and those teams disband because many (not all) are sick of the tactics, then you should (as good business people do) review why many on these people left. Most every kid benefitted from their time at MM skillwise, but something drove them away. It is a burn-out business model, but they will continue to do well since there are many young skaters families that will pay the money for their program. Most of these kids still love the game, they just choose to continue elsewhere.

Just the facts, no hating here.

PS-for those worried about their 5th amendment rights-don't. I do not think the FBI will arrest you for stating your opinion on this board. Private parties can censor all they want-it is their business and they can do what they want when it comes to kicking people off of youth hockey message boards.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

However, when you continue to use these teams as examples of what you can achieve if you continue to participate, and those teams disband because many (not all) are sick of the tactics, then you should (as good business people do) review why many on these people left. Most every kid benefitted from their time at MM skillwise, but something drove them away. It is a burn-out business model, but they will continue to do well since there are many young skaters families that will pay the money for their program. Most of these kids still love the game, they just choose to continue elsewhere.

Just the facts, no hating here.

Well, some of the facts anyways ...

First off, I don't know that anybody is hoisting these teams (or any other youth hockey team) as an example of what you can achieve - indeed, at 12, 13 and 14 years old they have achieved very little - but are simply involved in the journey.

The win-loss record of any of the Minnesota Made AAA programs has very little, if anything, to do with the success of Minnesota Made. The success of the Made is evident by quantity of people who seek out it's programming - made possible only by the quality of the programming itself - which ranks up there with the best available anywhere. Quality programming, in turn, created by quality people.

I live in a ritzy suburb but I drive an old clunker. Recently the shocks and a few other things went on my car and the garage that services my vehicle quoted me 1400.00 to fix it. I was going to take it to them but on the way there I stopped at a rival station. Just for kicks I popped in for a quote - and what do you know - they said they would do it for 1200.00. I called my regular garage and gave them an opportunity to match the price. They declined. I left the vehicle with them and set out to walk home.

On the way home I stopped at our local grocery store.

Inside, there was a lady at the checkout who had her adult daughter and grandaughter with her. She went to write a check for the groceries but the clerk told her they did not accept checks. The lady got quite irate and screamed for the manager. She made quite a scene. The Manager tried to explain the store policies and why they were in place and offered some alternatives. She would have none of it though and gave the clerk and manager an ultimatum - they would either do it her way and take the check or they would not get her business, now or ever.

Long story short, she left the store in a huff, daughter and granddaughter in tow ... vowing never to return. The daughter did pop back into the store a few minutes later and apologized for the scene. Since then I have seen the daughter in the store shopping but I will likely never see the older woman in there again.

Anyways, it got me thinking. What could this business have done to retain the old woman as a customer? In her own words, it would have to be done her way - NOT the stores way. That she was the customer and the customer is always right. In this instance that would have meant that the store would have had to abandon it's policy of not accepting checks and made a an exception for this woman.

I don't know the reasons behind the store check policy, but I give the store the benefit of the doubt and accept there is a reason behind it. Obviously a reason or reasons they feel are so compelling that making an exception for this woman was not an option. Whetever the reason. It's probably not a big deal. She will get her groceries elswhere and the store is not going out of business without her. Moreover - her daughter and grandaughter (who also left the store that day) will be repeat customers.

My garage would have had to cut their price by 200.00 for me to take my old clunker in for the particular work required. I don't know why they wouldn't give me the discount. It's a little strange that two garages a few blocks apart could be so far apart an an issue as commonplace as price. I don't know their costs. I don't know their philosophy. Maybe it's a mater of price. Maybe a matter of principal. Whatever the reason, it's no big deal. I got my car fixed. My regular garage will not go bankrupt because I went elsewhere on that issue. Moreover, I will go back to either garage in future when I have an issue, to whomever suits my needs best on the issue.

It's not uncommon for customers to spread their business between different suppliers or to switch suppliers when their needs can be begtter met elsewhere. It's not necesarily a negative reflection of the business nor is it neccesarily a negative reflection of the customer.

I imagine Minnesota Made, like any business, also runs into an unsatisfied customer from time to time. Most instances I imagine, don't recieve a lot of attention. However, the moving of a couple of Machine Teams to Velocity and the departure of the '95 Team have recieved a great deal of attention. This attention doesn't come from the disputes themselves, which are relatively minor. The negative attention is a result of detractors/competitors of Minnesota Made who see an opportunity to validate their negative feelings. (By the way, when you hear these issues spoken of in a negative manner it should reveals more about the messenger than the message.)

I'll give you an example of how these things have really been taken out of context and blown out of proportion. You might be surprised to hear the reality is a lot different than what you read on here.

A good friend of mine has a child on one of the teams which departed. The issue was between the owner of Minnesota Made and one of the team coaches. They had some philosophical differences and the coach made clear he was going to take the team elsewhere if things weren't done his way. It was explained to him that teams at Minnesota Made were expected to operate a certain way and that his way was inconsistent with the Minnesota Made way.

Like the lady in the grocery store - Irreconcilable differences and company parted.

This put the parent in a difficult position. What to do with his child, who LOVES playing for the Machine. The child and parent have no battle here but are caught in the cross fire between the ego of their coach and the policies of their team. What do they do now?

Sort of like the daughter of the grumpy old woman. They have no issue with Minnesota Made but are caught in the cross-fire.

Here's what many people do not know, or at least is not spoken about, about the departure of these teams. And this speaks highly of the character of the Minnesota Made owner/management. After much discussion between parents who largely wanted to stay at Minnesota Made and Minnesota Made management that the best course of action was to keep the kids together, even if that meant taking all of the kids elswhere. That the group of kids - the team - needed to be kept intact. That was more important than the jersey they wore or any negative press. The teams that left did so with the full blessing and endorsement of Minnesota Made.

This is really startling, as reading this forum, one might be led to believe that Bernie McBain is some kind of ego-maniac, obsessed with his bottom line, who would insist that players remain loyal to him or face some sort of rebuke.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The man truly cares about the kids he is charged with and despite the fact that he knew how bad it would look on him personally, on his Machine franchise and on Minnesota Made, his first and foremost concern was in the interest of those kids - those teams - even if it meant a departure from Minnesota Made. I give the man a ton of credit for this, as I know many people who's ego would get in the way and his concern was first and foremost for the well being of the players.

The fact that several teams left or disbanded is not a weakness or failing of Minnesota Made. On the outside looking in, it's unfortunate that some agreement couldn't be reached. I don't know the reasons Minnesota Made has the policies it does, but they stand by them - and that's a great strength - showing an uncompromising commitment to the core values that serve as the foundation of Minnesota Made. Lesser programs might cave to the whims of individual coaches. What's most impressive is what happened after the rifs - that Minnesota made put the interests of the players at the forefront. An unselfish position. Lesser programs might have been petty or punitive.

My friend's child has gone on to play with the team that departed. By all accounts things are going fine and the child is having fun. My friend has another child who still plays for another Machine team. In fact, he has 3 children in total - who all go to the Minnesota Made breakfast clubs and other Minnesota Made clinics.

In short, he is still a big Minnesota Made customer. He is getting great value and enjoying great programming to the benefit of all 3 of his children. One of whom still wears the orange while another former Machine player wears a different game jersey.

They are treated in exactly the same manner now as they were before the one team left. They still do a good deal of business at Minnesota Made but they also switched one aspect, the departed team, to best suit the needs and interests of the child.

In other words, and you wouldn't get this from these forums - It's not a big deal. Minnesota Made will continue on. This childs particular team will continue on. There are no apparent hard feelings and no reason for hard feelings.

Each of the teams that left/disbanded for it's own reasons (all stemming from coaching or policy disputes). Not a big deal.

Certainly, the fact that several teams disbanded or departed hasn't kept the players and parents from those teams from being robust and repeat visitors/customers at Minnesota Made. Just because a particular program doesn't suit them doesn't mean there aren't a dozen more Minnesota Made programs that do.

Minnesota Made is far from a burn-out business. In fact, quite the opposite. It thrives on the forefront of the hockey development industry (and make no mistake - it is an industry), constantly pushing and promoting new and exciting ways to learn and play the game.

Kids who once spent a good chunk of time at Minnesota Made and are now practicing their passion elsewhere doesn't neccesarily point to a "choice" to do so. Many times, as in the case of my friend's child, they would be at Minnesota Made given a choice, but a better fit for their situation and in the interests of the child (all things considered) are elsewhere at this time.

What's lost is the thing that has "driven these kids away" is a disagreement between adults in authority. The coaches operating the team and the program setting the policies. It has nothing to do with the kids who are just showing up where they are told and little to do with parents who are just doing their best to make the right choices for the individual situations of their individual children.

Nobody is being driven out. There is no burn-out. There is no water-boarding or other questionable "tactics". It is neither a negative reflection of Minnesota Made or a negative reflection of the parents, coaches or players involved. It's just an everyday occurance where people make different choices based on different needs and philosophies. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Of course, as with any business, there are people who absolutely hate it. For whatever reason, they despise the business model, disagree with the philosophy, don't like the color scheme, are aghast at the prices or maybe Bernie just won't take their check ...

[Toomuchtoosoon]

If it all about business principles, then we should still have a 96 Machine playing. Players are made, not born according to the slogan. There are many kids and parents willing to make the sacrifice to play on the 96 Machine, however, we all know that the DNA has a much bigger role in developing top level talent than the business philosophy states.  So you combine the next level of players with the other 96ers who wanted to stay and you should have a top level 96 AAA team. The truth is that they would never achieve the levels the original team did since a lot of the naturals who busted their butt were no longer there. That is not good for the business slogan. 

 

In addition, if it was just the 95 coach who took players with him, then is it the coach that makes the difference or the business philosophy? Does MM do a good job in making kids who want to work hard better hockey players?-yes. Can they make a kid who works hard, puts in the hours, but does not have enough natural talent a D1 player of NHLer-No. So that is the crux of the difference. 

 

MM should start a new 96 Machine team and coach up the kids. If it is all about their development system and business philosophy, then the new 96 Machine should once again dominate.

 

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

TMTS ... not trying to be a wiseguy, but I have to admit, you've lost me here.

My post and follow up reply to your post addressed the question of wether or not Minnesota Made should or shouldn't be a for-profit business and wether or not Minnesota Made is a well run for-profit business.

I am not sure how we make the jump from that to DNA or how we conclude that Minnesota Made is somehow a business failure because they can't produce NHL or D1 caliber players.

But in response to this new branch of the discussion ... First off, we don't know wether Minnesota Made can or can't develop D1 or NHL talent because none of the Minnesota Made players are at that stage yet. And when the Minnesota Made players do come of age, even for those that make the D1 jump, it will be impossible to say with certainty how much of their Minnesota made experience contributed directly to that success.

The only remotely close examples we have are Bernies 88's - who by all accounts were rewarded for their efforts.

Second I am not aware that they are selling that service. - in all the days I have spent a the Made, no one has ever promised to make my kid a D1 or NHL player and I don't see that slogan anywhere on the property.

I suppose if your expectation was that your child would be D1 or NHL because he played at the Made then you are setting yourself up for a major dissapointment. I'm not sure any program could live up to such a lofty expectation, nor have I seen any evidence of Minnesota Made is making those promises or selling that service.

Again, this doesn't speak badly of Minnesota Made - it merely tells a story of parents with unrealistic expectations.

The VAST MAJORITY of parental participants at Minnesota Made - at least the ones that I know - simply want their children to be the best they can be, to play and enjoy the game at the highest level within them, meet new people, get different coaching, experience clean healthy fun, get a bit of excersize, learn new skills etc..

Further, with regards to the 96 team. Minnesota Made does have a 96 team. Are they playing at the same level as the players on the team that Minnesota Made has been developing for the past 5-6 years? No. But it's their first year together. By all accounts they are having fun and improving, as expected. They will be fine.

Anyways I am glad you brought up the DNA thing, as I think this will be a great discussion. However, to save our moderators some headache, I will post it as a fresh topic. I hope to see you on the thread ... please bring some actual facts to the discussion or something to support your theory ...

we all know that the DNA has a much bigger role in developing top level talent ...

[natureshooter]

There was a coach from St Paul who know it was about the game. Not where people are from. Natureshooter

[scrapiron]

another

[Dirty Coaches]

Why call it the "Minnesota" Blades then? Why not do something like the Monopoly does when they uses "North America"

How about change the name to "North American Blades?" They've never been real good about communication. My son used to fill in "now and then" but if he failed to meet their expectations, he wasn't called back. When he stood out while playing against them, the phone was ringing for their next practice/tournament (free of charge). I never had to pay. My kid did say that it was always a quiet locker room because most of the kids didn't no each other. This could explain why they don't always win. Not much of a team concept.

[mackjogger]

This is such a joke - this ETS person is the idiot that came to a tournament last year in a suit - pathetic - envy and jealousy are powerful motivators and the people typing lately are just sick of the bilge that has been spewing from Bernie haters

People are just so naive about the blades org - they say all the right things untill its time to win a tournament and then it's off to other states or raiding other teams to try to win? Why not just pick your team and develop them like you always preach?

People appreciate the options that are available these days and the blades want things to go back to the way they used to be........guess what it's never going to happen - the jeanie is out of the bottle but development and WINNING is still the goal - seems like orange are winning more and developing the players on the team - its all good!!

you are missing the point. At the Brick they are competing against teams pulling from an entire region. These kids are playing 50 games 90 practices during AAA season (sept-march) for their own organization. Then the brick tryout comes and all of these kids from several states compete for 18 spots. speaking JUST BRICK now...MN should have a similar format. Let the best 9-10 year olds represent the state.

Anybody know the furthest distance an 01 blade had to travel for practice?

[luckyEPDad]

The Blades have historically assembled a roster specifically for the Brick....and that roster doesn't always jive with their "regular" roster...this is nothing new.

Why? I ask this seriously. What is the purpose of mix and match teams to play in a tournament? Does it help the players? Does it help the club? I don't see the upside but see plenty of down. Not looking for a fight. Please educate me.

[JSR]

The Blades have historically assembled a roster specifically for the Brick....and that roster doesn't always jive with their "regular" roster...this is nothing new.

Why? I ask this seriously. What is the purpose of mix and match teams to play in a tournament? Does it help the players? Does it help the club? I don't see the upside but see plenty of down. Not looking for a fight. Please educate me.

Depends on where you are from? In the twin cities you have so many great players I agree that you probably shouldn't need to have that and have ample option to play at high levels with doing such things. However, some folks don't live in as hockey rich areas as that and maybe they have a kid who can play at the highest level but they have no team to play with that can locally. So they play on all the local teams in winter and even spring etc... but once or twice a year they either create or find a team that can play at that level and is playing in a reasonably high level invite type tourney so their son or daughter can know what it's like to play with and against that level of competition so they can decide for themselves if they want/need to work harder or whatever. When you have never played with or against that level you have no idea if you can play at that level or if you can (or are close to it) how much harder you have to work in games etc.... I don't advise ti as a regular thing but once a yearish it can be a very good thing for those kids in that predicament. That is, in my opinion, a legit reason why some do it anyway. I realize it is not why all do.

[South Sask Hockey]

I have a question, do the Blades and Machine play tournaments in July and August. Our season is usually done after the Subway, which leaves the kids open to attend the Brick Tournament. If your teams are not playing in July why would you not send a state team? Seems to me that you get the Wild involved someway and have independent coaches that are not associated with the above mentioned programs.

[luckyEPDad]

The Blades have historically assembled a roster specifically for the Brick....and that roster doesn't always jive with their "regular" roster...this is nothing new.

Why? I ask this seriously. What is the purpose of mix and match teams to play in a tournament? Does it help the players? Does it help the club? I don't see the upside but see plenty of down. Not looking for a fight. Please educate me.

Depends on where you are from? In the twin cities you have so many great players I agree that you probably shouldn't need to have that and have ample option to play at high levels with doing such things. However, some folks don't live in as hockey rich areas as that and maybe they have a kid who can play at the highest level but they have no team to play with that can locally. So they play on all the local teams in winter and even spring etc... but once or twice a year they either create or find a team that can play at that level and is playing in a reasonably high level invite type tourney so their son or daughter can know what it's like to play with and against that level of competition so they can decide for themselves if they want/need to work harder or whatever. When you have never played with or against that level you have no idea if you can play at that level or if you can (or are close to it) how much harder you have to work in games etc.... I don't advise ti as a regular thing but once a yearish it can be a very good thing for those kids in that predicament. That is, in my opinion, a legit reason why some do it anyway. I realize it is not why all do.

That would explain why a player would want an invite, but what's in it for the club? Is it a source of extra income? I don't see how winning a tournament with a special roster enhances their image. If anything I view it as an admission that they are incapable of developing or attracting talent.

Only in professional sports is winning everything and the only thing. There income is directly related to success. In this case I see no economic justification. Is it hubris?