How Affluence Affects Hockey Success

[karl(east)]

This is a no-brainer. One just has to drive through the Super Rink parking lot on any given weekend --- lots of new or nearly new Burbs and Escalades and not too many junkers..................

Exactly, that is an outstanding example IMO.

I have to disagree here--this is lovely anecdotal evidence, but 20 Escalades in a parking lot isn't serious evidence. To use an extreme counter-example, you could find the same types of cars outside a rugby club in South Africa. That doesn't exactly mean the city is rich, though. There are rich and poor people in just about every city, and the rich people tend to live and interact more with other rich people, and vice versa. (This comment is not meant to suggest that Blaine isn't "affluent"--a term that seems to mean different things to people on here--I'm just saying we need better evidence.)

Defense brings up a very important point by mentioning population. As I mentioned earlier, association size is the first place to look if you want to assess how good a hockey team will be. Of course association size can be a product of affluence, but there are also affluent schools out there that aren't very big, and thus don't have great hockey teams. Demographic trends also matter a lot. If you look back at the history of teams that made the state tournament/its winners, you can get a decent picture of how and the metro area expanded, or when certain areas stopped getting lots of new/young residents. (There's a bit of a time lag since it takes time to raise new children into hockey players, but it works relatively well.)

Outstate schools seem to follow different rules. Most small towns we can separate into haves and have-nots, and the two lists stay pretty consistent. The haves usually aren't always good, but have bubbles of talent that come up every few years. Changing demographics have hurt some cities, particularly those on the Iron Range.

I'd stick the medium-sized outstate cities (Duluth, Rochester, St. Cloud) into a different category altogether. Each of those cases have their own special sets of circumstances that decide who is good and who isn't.

I'm not saying HSHW's explanation (affluence, hockey history, private schools=good at hockey) is wrong, I just think we can be a little more precise.

[old goalie85]

What about back in the 70's & 80's, were Johnson & South St Paul rich kids? I think not !!!

[woogieboogiewoogie]

This is a no-brainer. One just has to drive through the Super Rink parking lot on any given weekend --- lots of new or nearly new Burbs and Escalades and not too many junkers..................

All those Burbs and Escalades are actually from all over the place(from Brainerd to Mankato, Willmar to Stillwater and everywhere in between). I'd be willing to bet, quite a few of those parents are living paycheck to paycheck to make their dreams come true. I mean their kids' dreams come true.

[interestedbystander]

This is a no-brainer. One just has to drive through the Super Rink parking lot on any given weekend --- lots of new or nearly new Burbs and Escalades and not too many junkers..................

All those Burbs and Escalades are actually from all over the place(from Brainerd to Mankato, Willmar to Stillwater and everywhere in between). I'd be willing to bet, quite a few of those parents are living paycheck to paycheck to make their dreams come true. I mean their kids' dreams come true.

Obviously...my point is not that Blaine is affluent. It's that hockey is a sport primarily for the well off. And the more well off, the better the opportunities for coaching, training, etc. Why is that so hard to embrace? No different than polo players, golfers, etc.......

[woogieboogiewoogie]

This is a no-brainer. One just has to drive through the Super Rink parking lot on any given weekend --- lots of new or nearly new Burbs and Escalades and not too many junkers..................

All those Burbs and Escalades are actually from all over the place(from Brainerd to Mankato, Willmar to Stillwater and everywhere in between). I'd be willing to bet, quite a few of those parents are living paycheck to paycheck to make their dreams come true. I mean their kids' dreams come true.

Obviously...my point is not that Blaine is affluent. It's that hockey is a sport primarily for the well off. And the more well off, the better the opportunities for coaching, training, etc. Why is that so hard to embrace? No different than polo players, golfers, etc.......

My point---there is $$ everywhere and there are parents willing to do whatever it takes and at any cost(even if it means going in debt) to help there kids get better.

[BBB]

Interesting that 7 of the top 10 are towns around Lake Minnetonka.

And a team around lake Minnetonka has never won a state title. Minnetonka and Wayzata have a bunch of rinks and draw most of the kids from the towns listed yet have never accomplished what the northern suburbs or tiny rural towns have. Wayzata's been to state once in about 50 years? Minnetonka hasnt been to a youth state tournament in something list 30-35 years? Is that even possible? Mound is garbage even at a the class A level and Orono is ok, for class A that is.
The only other towns I notice are in the WBL area. Based on state titles as we've been talking what's their total?
So basically all the most affluent areas with a bunch of rinks, large youth programs and all the money to afford hockey and the expenses involved haven't done much over the last half century but towns from the northern burbs (that were ranked anywhere from 90-160) have won quite a few titles over the last 20 years. Centennial (circle pines and lino lakes) were the only one with an avg income of 25k.
interestedbystander, have you done your escalade/suburban study at places like Stillwater or Hopkins? What did you find out? Let us know if Brainerd is drawing rich kids who live in million dollar homes and whose parent drive 'sclades. We need to figure out why their hockey isn't very good.
Defense, go up to Anoka County and count on one weiner how many people you see who are affluent; meaning "having an abundance of wealth, property, or other material goods; prosperous; rich"
Then count on your fingers and toes how many tattoo shops you see, drug rehab centers, and check cashing places you see and combine it with the domestic abuse cases filed that day in Anoka County and let me know which extremity you run out of first.

[BBB]

Looking at a list of MN state champions, I see Wayzata and EP are the dominate teams in cross country across the state. You must have to be affluent to run.
I know Minnetonka has a recent state title in football and EP and wayzata are on their own level. Can the rest of the state not afford to play football or is a matter of drawing from large talent pools of kids, regardless of their families financial situation, and combining it with good coaching/programs?
Back to the escalade study. What happens if you go to NSC in Blaine in the summer and there are a bunch of suburbans/escalades there for the soccer tournament? Does that make soccer an affluent sport? Everyone can afford to play soccer right.

[defense]

Interesting that 7 of the top 10 are towns around Lake Minnetonka.

And a team around lake Minnetonka has never won a state title. Minnetonka and Wayzata have a bunch of rinks and draw most of the kids from the towns listed yet have never accomplished what the northern suburbs or tiny rural towns have. Wayzata's been to state once in about 50 years? Minnetonka hasnt been to a youth state tournament in something list 30-35 years? Is that even possible? Mound is garbage even at a the class A level and Orono is ok, for class A that is.
The only other towns I notice are in the WBL area. Based on state titles as we've been talking what's their total?
So basically all the most affluent areas with a bunch of rinks, large youth programs and all the money to afford hockey and the expenses involved haven't done much over the last half century but towns from the northern burbs (that were ranked anywhere from 90-160) have won quite a few titles over the last 20 years. Centennial (circle pines and lino lakes) were the only one with an avg income of 25k.
interestedbystander, have you done your escalade/suburban study at places like Stillwater or Hopkins? What did you find out? Let us know if Brainerd is drawing rich kids who live in million dollar homes and whose parent drive 'sclades. We need to figure out why their hockey isn't very good.
Defense, go up to Anoka County and count on one weiner how many people you see who are affluent; meaning "having an abundance of wealth, property, or other material goods; prosperous; rich"
Then count on your fingers and toes how many tattoo shops you see, drug rehab centers, and check cashing places you see and combine it with the domestic abuse cases filed that day in Anoka County and let me know which extremity you run out of first.

It's a very good point that the communities listed have not won big in hockey. DIdn't think of it that way.
Depending on how you define affluent, OK, it's subjective. I'm guessing that if I did my homework, I would find that people in Anoka county drink excessively, use drugs, or beat their wives....think you have to be poor to do that???? I'm guessing that the NW suburbs are doing slightly better than the neighborhoods in Minneapolis and St. Paul...I don't think the point was that the NW suburbs are the elitest place to live. I think the point was that the NW suburbs are suburbs. And towns that were generally growing in the last few decades. Where did Rogers come from?
Why didn't any of those teams get to state before the '90's??
Tattoo shops explains exactly the questions I asked, is it more money, or population demoraphic????
How did we go from Warroad coach resigns to arguing who's rich????
If it is to be believed that the NW suburbs are a "lower" place, go ahead and believe it. You are not going to fool me.
In my opinion I think it takes a mixture of all that has been stated. Lack in one area and make it up in another. Don't have a ton of money floating around the community???? if you still win in hockey you likely have a hockey culture. Have a ton of money but not a lot of success?? People aren't that interested in hockey yet, or the culture hasn't been built.

[BBB]

Why did those schools not make it before the 90's.
I would say smaller talent pools, inferior coaching/facilities/hockey programs in general. That's just a guess.
What I am really wondering about is Wayzata's East-African-like domination in long distance running but their irrelevance in the affluently dominated sport of ice hockey. Is it the custom fit running $hoe$ at GearWest in Long Lake? The recent introduction of microfiber running shorts? Big bucks along with less crotch chaffing during long distance races?

[mulefarm]

Don't know about Escales, but drove through Wayzata HS and Minnetonka Hs and counted more BMW's, Lexus, and Range Rovers than in all of Anoka County!

[The X]

Why did those schools not make it before the 90's.
I would say smaller talent pools, inferior coaching/facilities/hockey programs in general. That's just a guess.
What I am really wondering about is Wayzata's East-African-like domination in long distance running but their irrelevance in the affluently dominated sport of ice hockey. Is it the custom fit running $hoe$ at GearWest in Long Lake? The recent introduction of microfiber running shorts? Big bucks along with less crotch chaffing during long distance races?

Last time I checked Wayzata has a pretty strong hockey program. Several players going D-1 and losing to AA champ in OT in section title game. Not an example of hockey futility I would say. The section Wayzata plays in has more to do with them not going to state than anything else.

[BBB]

See above posts about the factors relating to producing state champions...thats what we're talking about here. Wayzata hasn't produced a single one and has only made it to St Paul once since goalies started wearing masks.
Wayzata/Plymouth is the Escalade capital of the midwest. They even have valet parking at the high school..The only towns that can compete with them for that title are Brainerd (0 state titles), Minnetonka (0 state titles), White Bear (0 state titles), and Stillwater (0 state titles). All of those have had hockey for quite a few decades and have had people "interested" in hockey regardless of what Defense says. Those schools facilities aren't too shabby either. If affluence has such a significant impact on success in hockey....Wayzata is up 3-0 every game before the puck even drops.

[MNHockeyFan]

Another consideration is that many parents in those wealthy communities around Lake Minnetonka send their kids to private schools. BSM, Breck, Blake and to a lesser extent AHA have been the main beneficiaries over the years.

[The X]

See above posts about the factors relating to producing state champions...thats what we're talking about here. Wayzata hasn't produced a single one and has only made it to St Paul once since goalies started wearing masks.
Wayzata/Plymouth is the Escalade capital of the midwest. They even have valet parking at the high school..The only towns that can compete with them for that title are Brainerd (0 state titles), Minnetonka (0 state titles), White Bear (0 state titles), and Stillwater (0 state titles). All of those have had hockey for quite a few decades and have had people "interested" in hockey regardless of what Defense says. Those schools facilities aren't too shabby either. If affluence has such a significant impact on success in hockey....Wayzata is up 3-0 every game before the puck even drops.

I agree triple B, but these schools you mentioned are always in the hunt. There can only be one champion every year. Just a little friendly banter during the offseason, nothing to get worked up over.

[The X]

See above posts about the factors relating to producing state champions...thats what we're talking about here. Wayzata hasn't produced a single one and has only made it to St Paul once since goalies started wearing masks.
Wayzata/Plymouth is the Escalade capital of the midwest. They even have valet parking at the high school..The only towns that can compete with them for that title are Brainerd (0 state titles), Minnetonka (0 state titles), White Bear (0 state titles), and Stillwater (0 state titles). All of those have had hockey for quite a few decades and have had people "interested" in hockey regardless of what Defense says. Those schools facilities aren't too shabby either. If affluence has such a significant impact on success in hockey....Wayzata is up 3-0 every game before the puck even drops.

[The X]

Another consideration is that many parents in those wealthy communities around Lake Minnetonka send their kids to private schools. BSM, Breck, Blake and to a lesser extent AHA have been the main beneficiaries over the years.

Very good point.

[youngblood08]

What about back in the 70's & 80's, were Johnson & South St Paul rich kids? I think not !!!

No but when Johnson and SSP were the teams to recon with they had industry that supportted that area. Johnson area had the 3M plants, Hamm/Strohs Brewery and many other industries. Back in the SSP haydays 90% of the town worked at Hormel and the Stockyards.

Population growth is what spurs a growth in your hockey. Towns grow it increases competition also brings in the opportunity for people with a higher level of hockey experience to move in and help the program.

[EHSHack]

See above posts about the factors relating to producing state champions...thats what we're talking about here. Wayzata hasn't produced a single one and has only made it to St Paul once since goalies started wearing masks.
Wayzata/Plymouth is the Escalade capital of the midwest. They even have valet parking at the high school..The only towns that can compete with them for that title are Brainerd (0 state titles), Minnetonka (0 state titles), White Bear (0 state titles), and Stillwater (0 state titles). All of those have had hockey for quite a few decades and have had people "interested" in hockey regardless of what Defense says. Those schools facilities aren't too shabby either. If affluence has such a significant impact on success in hockey....Wayzata is up 3-0 every game before the puck even drops.

Jokes?

[karl(east)]

Responding to a post made on the old version of this thread:

I'm not saying HSHW's explanation (affluence, hockey history, private schools=good at hockey) is wrong, I just think we can be a little more precise.

I would like to make it clear that I am pointing the arrowing the other direction AND I'm not saying "good at hockey" but rather "state title."

STAte Title implies affluence, hockey history OR private. Those three alone imply nothing. Rambling on and on about why certain schools with these traits are not good shows you clearly do not understand what was stated.

You are in violent agreement with me.

Forgive me if this sounds like a patronizing social science lecture, but what we have here is a confusion between correlation and causation.

HSHW has identified a correlation. That is, there is an obvious relationship between three factors (affluence, hockey history, being a private school) and winning state titles. It doesn't matter which way the "arrow goes" in a correlation--we are simply saying that the two things are related. (Hence my use of an equals sign, which does not imply that one thing causes the other. If we wanted to do that, we'd use arrows.)

My posts on this thread have been an effort to see what lies behind this correlation, and see if we can identify any causation. (In reading this thread, it seems like many people are interested in finding an explanation for why certain schools are good at hockey (something winning state titles would be an indicator of). So I'm trying to find that, and if we were to take HSHW's formula as a causation:

Affluence and/or history and/or private school ---> hockey success

My last post attempted to explain that this is true (depending on one's definition of affluence), but that there are probably deeper reasons if we really want a reason why. That is why I'm rambling on about differences between metro and outstate schools. I hope someone found it at least mildy helpful.

Is that clear?

[The Other Bash Brother]

See above posts about the factors relating to producing state champions...thats what we're talking about here. Wayzata hasn't produced a single one and has only made it to St Paul once since goalies started wearing masks.
Wayzata/Plymouth is the Escalade capital of the midwest. They even have valet parking at the high school..The only towns that can compete with them for that title are Brainerd (0 state titles), Minnetonka (0 state titles), White Bear (0 state titles), and Stillwater (0 state titles). All of those have had hockey for quite a few decades and have had people "interested" in hockey regardless of what Defense says. Those schools facilities aren't too shabby either. If affluence has such a significant impact on success in hockey....Wayzata is up 3-0 every game before the puck even drops.

Jokes?

Plymouth doesn't even have a high school.

Are you arguing that Robbinsdale Armstrong is affluent?

[Toomuchtoosoon]

Plymouth doesn't even have a high school.

Wayzata HS is in Plymouth-close to Medina and Maple Grove. It has about 900 students per class from all socioeconomic backgrounds.

Having large numbers and resources improves the chances, but does not offer any guarantees.

Edina has smaller class sizes, but similar hockey participation. Wayzata is now a football school, all other sports take the back seat. Hockey in Edina is king-which adds the intangible of why they probably have had better success than their cake eater brother from the north.

[BBB]

Plymouth doesn't even have a high school.

Are you arguing that Robbinsdale Armstrong is affluent?

Plymouth actually has two high schools...Heck lets throw Armstrong in the affluent category with Anoka and Elk River. I heard there was an escalade at New Hope arena the other night. That way the statement about affluent, private, and history can include everyone and by default HSHW would be correct. We can leave out Austin and Irondale but everyone knows they will never contend for a title anyway.

[BBB]

Is Providence Academy in Plymouth too?

[HShockeywatcher]

Is Providence Academy in Plymouth too?

yes. and private

[AlterEagle]

Here's a list of per capita income by municipality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mi ... ita_income

Interesting that 7 of the top 10 are towns around Lake Minnetonka.

And not a single state champ...dare I say...ever from this area??? First state champ on the list is Edina at #15.