Top 75 High Schools teams of all-time

[MNHockeyFan]

SSP has my vote; they're the only ones left without a state title.

SSP got my pick as soon as I saw this as well. Probably wrong, because so many others have surprised during the 'countdown'.

Fun and entertaining thread!

[BodyShots]

SSP has my vote; they're the only ones left without a state title.

SSP got my pick as soon as I saw this as well. Probably wrong, because so many others have surprised during the 'countdown'.

Fun and entertaining thread!

I don't know, but Eveleth has 5 championships, 2 seconds, and 4 thirds and only finished 12th. I'm guessing International Falls will come in next with their 6 titles, 2 seconds, and 4 thirds.

It appears to be a "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY" countdown.

[east hockey]

SSP has my vote; they're the only ones left without a state title.

SSP got my pick as soon as I saw this as well. Probably wrong, because so many others have surprised during the 'countdown'.

Fun and entertaining thread!

I don't know, but Eveleth has 5 championships, 2 seconds, and 4 thirds and only finished 12th. I'm guessing International Falls will come in next with their 6 titles, 2 seconds, and 4 thirds.

It appears to be a "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY" countdown.

From the first post in this topic:

Code: Select all

The highest point totals are awarded for teams in the State Tournament from 1975-1991, followed by 1992-2011, 1961-74, 1951-60 and 1945-50. A strong enough argument was made for it being tougher to make state during 1975-91 (prior to the two-class tournament) that these years carry a slightly heavier weight than more recent results. 

Lee

[luckyEPDad]

What is the "A" vs "AA" weighting when calculating points? Is it arbitrary or did you use some statistical method?

[east hockey]

What is the "A" vs "AA" weighting when calculating points? Is it arbitrary or did you use some statistical method?

Class A points were calculated at 36% of Class AA points.

Code: Select all

The 0.36 I came up with was the result of comparing the PageStat ratings of every Class A team to every Class AA team over the past eleven years. This was a huge sampling of over 83,000 comparisons and gave me a certain amount of confidence.

Above is from the topic where I started discussion of this.

Lee

[TTpuckster]

SSP has my vote; they're the only ones left without a state title.

SSP got my pick as soon as I saw this as well. Probably wrong, because so many others have surprised during the 'countdown'.

Fun and entertaining thread!

I don't know, but Eveleth has 5 championships, 2 seconds, and 4 thirds and only finished 12th. I'm guessing International Falls will come in next with their 6 titles, 2 seconds, and 4 thirds.

It appears to be a "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY" countdown.

I also voted for IF next.

[karl(east)]

SSP has my vote; they're the only ones left without a state title.

SSP got my pick as soon as I saw this as well. Probably wrong, because so many others have surprised during the 'countdown'.

Fun and entertaining thread!

I don't know, but Eveleth has 5 championships, 2 seconds, and 4 thirds and only finished 12th. I'm guessing International Falls will come in next with their 6 titles, 2 seconds, and 4 thirds.

It appears to be a "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY" countdown.

SSP hasn't done all that much lately either.

I do think that the what-have-you-done-for-me-lately reasoning is good--it's a lot easier to win a title when there are fewer teams, and when many of them had poorly developed programs.

[east hockey]

Here are the results from the survey on who would finish #9. I'm posting this here because, after detailing the next team, I will be setting up a new poll for people to guess who the #8 team will or should be.

South St Paul--11 votes
International Falls--4 votes
Roseau--2 votes
Bloom. Jefferson--1 vote
Duluth East--1 vote
Grand Rapids--1 vote

Lee

[east hockey]

#9: South St. Paul

267.18 pts
--0 state titles
--27 state tournaments; 1 state tournament (Class A)

Only two schools have been to state more times than the Packers; the only thing holding them down from a higher ranking is that they’ve never won it all. It’s not that they’ve been bottom-feeders at the state tournament as they have an 18-9 record in quarterfinal games. They had difficulty in state semifinals, going 2-16. I say “had” rather than “have had” because they went to Class A play starting in 2003-04. Since then they have been to the Class A state tournament once.

[218er]

Here are the results from the survey on who would finish #9. I'm posting this here because, after detailing the next team, I will be setting up a new poll for people to guess who the #8 team will or should be.

South St Paul--11 votes
International Falls--4 votes
Roseau--2 votes
Bloom. Jefferson--1 vote
Duluth East--1 vote
Grand Rapids--1 vote

Lee

This is the best thread I've ever seen... and I truely believe this is very accurate.

[sllek]

I have to agree with 218er, this is a magnificent thread. Just a guess as to how the rest of the rankings will turn out:
8. International Falls
7. St. Paul Johnson
6. Duluth East
5. Grand Rapids
4. Bloomington Jefferson
3. Hill-Murray
2. Roseau
1. Edina

I can't wait to see how I did.

[east hockey]

After this has been completed, I'll be posting lists showing the top twenty teams in each decade.

Lee

[GordonBombay99]

Amazing thread, one of the best I have ever seen on here. Its such an incredible and very accurate list too.

[east hockey]

Amazing thread, one of the best I have ever seen on here. Its such an incredible and very accurate list too.

I don't know about the accuracy bit. Where I saw how a few teams landed, I scratched my head, and actually reviewed the numbers on a few of them to make sure I had put the correct points down for each season. Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. There are still questions I'm asking myself about this; does just getting to the tournament mean more than the credit I'm giving it? Is the factoring I've plugged in for different time periods justified? Questions like these, and others. The Class A vs Class AA thing is something I still ponder, also.

It's been fun working on this. Normally, when the season ends, I'm ready for it to be over so I can get on with life's other stuff. But I'm still in hockey mode anyway due to the Bulldogs being in the Frozen Four.

Lee

[Puck Whisperer]

Amazing thread, one of the best I have ever seen on here. Its such an incredible and very accurate list too.

I don't know about the accuracy bit. Where I saw how a few teams landed, I scratched my head, and actually reviewed the numbers on a few of them to make sure I had put the correct points down for each season. Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. There are still questions I'm asking myself about this; does just getting to the tournament mean more than the credit I'm giving it? Is the factoring I've plugged in for different time periods justified? Questions like these, and others. The Class A vs Class AA thing is something I still ponder, also.

It's been fun working on this. Normally, when the season ends, I'm ready for it to be over so I can get on with life's other stuff. But I'm still in hockey mode anyway due to the Bulldogs being in the Frozen Four.

Lee

Interesting to read though - and difficult to attempt because of the head scratchers! Thanks! GO Bulldogs!

[GordonBombay99]

Amazing thread, one of the best I have ever seen on here. Its such an incredible and very accurate list too.

I don't know about the accuracy bit. Where I saw how a few teams landed, I scratched my head, and actually reviewed the numbers on a few of them to make sure I had put the correct points down for each season. Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. There are still questions I'm asking myself about this; does just getting to the tournament mean more than the credit I'm giving it? Is the factoring I've plugged in for different time periods justified? Questions like these, and others. The Class A vs Class AA thing is something I still ponder, also.

It's been fun working on this. Normally, when the season ends, I'm ready for it to be over so I can get on with life's other stuff. But I'm still in hockey mode anyway due to the Bulldogs being in the Frozen Four.

Lee

There's always going to be flaws with any ranking, but with the factors taken into account I think its fairly accurate, teams should get rewarded for how they play and their success, I think for the most part this list takes that into account.

[karl(east)]

I'm voting for St.Paul Johnson this time--they only have 3 tourney appearances since the arrival of the privates in 1975. Everyone left has 3+ state titles.

I'm curious to see who comes first out of Grand Rapids and Duluth East--East has a few more appearances, but GR's run of dominance came during the time period that's getting the most weight.

[PuckU126]

I'm voting for St.Paul Johnson this time--they only have 3 tourney appearances since the arrival of the privates in 1975. Everyone left has 3+ state titles.

I'm curious to see who comes first out of Grand Rapids and Duluth East--East has a few more appearances, but GR's run of dominance came during the time period that's getting the most weight.

Your vote doesn't count, Karl.

[karl(east)]

I'm voting for St.Paul Johnson this time--they only have 3 tourney appearances since the arrival of the privates in 1975. Everyone left has 3+ state titles.

I'm curious to see who comes first out of Grand Rapids and Duluth East--East has a few more appearances, but GR's run of dominance came during the time period that's getting the most weight.

Your vote doesn't count, Karl.

What, do you think Lee leaked the rankings to me?

[east hockey]

I'm voting for St.Paul Johnson this time--they only have 3 tourney appearances since the arrival of the privates in 1975. Everyone left has 3+ state titles.

I'm curious to see who comes first out of Grand Rapids and Duluth East--East has a few more appearances, but GR's run of dominance came during the time period that's getting the most weight.

Your vote doesn't count, Karl.

What, do you think Lee leaked the rankings to me?

Lee

[goldy313]

It looks good to me. I think getting to the tournament is easier now than ever as most sections only have 2 legitimate contenders year in and year out. Then you have sections like 6AA where there were 4 this year and everyone talked how tough it was, well 25 years ago every section was like that.

I think the A/AA thing is right, year in and year out maybe 1 class A team would make the AA or 1 class tournament and most years I don't think even 1 would. You'll have the occasional Warroad and they play Roseau and Moorhead where you'll get a good idea but then you also have Breck, Hermantown, and Lourdes who don't play any top AA teams from their area most years and generally lose when they do.

[PuckU126]

Your vote doesn't count, Karl.

What, do you think Lee leaked the rankings to me?

Lee

That laugh says it all.

[High Flyer]

What is the "A" vs "AA" weighting when calculating points? Is it arbitrary or did you use some statistical method?

Class A points were calculated at 36% of Class AA points.

Code: Select all

The 0.36 I came up with was the result of comparing the PageStat ratings of every Class A team to every Class AA team over the past eleven years. This was a huge sampling of over 83,000 comparisons and gave me a certain amount of confidence.

Above is from the topic where I started discussion of this.

Lee

So since you are weighting down the accomplishments of class “A” teams, can we assume you are doing the same for class “AA” opt ups?

Multiplier
Class A .36
Class AA 1.0
Class AA Opt Ups 1.36

[BodyShots]

Amazing thread, one of the best I have ever seen on here. Its such an incredible and very accurate list too.

I don't know about the accuracy bit. Where I saw how a few teams landed, I scratched my head, and actually reviewed the numbers on a few of them to make sure I had put the correct points down for each season. Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. There are still questions I'm asking myself about this; does just getting to the tournament mean more than the credit I'm giving it? Is the factoring I've plugged in for different time periods justified? Questions like these, and others. The Class A vs Class AA thing is something I still ponder, also.

It's been fun working on this. Normally, when the season ends, I'm ready for it to be over so I can get on with life's other stuff. But I'm still in hockey mode anyway due to the Bulldogs being in the Frozen Four.

Lee

I agree with the others, Lee. This post has been a joy to read, and the first one I look for each morning. I commend you on your time and effort put into creating this list with commentary.

I would be curious to know your criteria for assigning points. Do teams earn points for conference results? You list a lot of Section results as well. Do you get points for advancing to the Section Semi's and Finals? How many points does a state champion get, versus a 2nd place or Consolation Champ? I could go on and on.

There have been a few head scratchers for me, and I'm sure if you gave this project to 100 posters, they would come up with 100 different results based on their own criteria.

Thanks for keeping the hockey interests going!

[east hockey]

Amazing thread, one of the best I have ever seen on here. Its such an incredible and very accurate list too.

I don't know about the accuracy bit. Where I saw how a few teams landed, I scratched my head, and actually reviewed the numbers on a few of them to make sure I had put the correct points down for each season. Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. There are still questions I'm asking myself about this; does just getting to the tournament mean more than the credit I'm giving it? Is the factoring I've plugged in for different time periods justified? Questions like these, and others. The Class A vs Class AA thing is something I still ponder, also.

It's been fun working on this. Normally, when the season ends, I'm ready for it to be over so I can get on with life's other stuff. But I'm still in hockey mode anyway due to the Bulldogs being in the Frozen Four.

Lee

I agree with the others, Lee. This post has been a joy to read, and the first one I look for each morning. I commend you on your time and effort put into creating this list with commentary.

I would be curious to know your criteria for assigning points. Do teams earn points for conference results? You list a lot of Section results as well. Do you get points for advancing to the Section Semi's and Finals? How many points does a state champion get, versus a 2nd place or Consolation Champ? I could go on and on.

There have been a few head scratchers for me, and I'm sure if you gave this project to 100 posters, they would come up with 100 different results based on their own criteria.

Thanks for keeping the hockey interests going!

The starting point for the criteria I'm using can be found here, in a page I posted on my website back in 1999.

http://minnhock.com/bestteam.htm

It's been tweaked/refined since then. I didn't include Class A in the original study; it is included now. In the original study, winning a state title in 1945 was given the same value it was in any other year.

I did not include conference titles for two reasons:

1. Not every team plays in a conference.

2. Getting historical data on this would likely be impossible.

As you mentioned, I included certain teams' records in section semifinals and finals for a reason; those are factored in, but at very low values. Winning a section, for example, is worth roughly five times as many points as losing a section semi-final.

There is a definite progression involved here; you get a certain number of points for winning a section semifinal. For each level you attain, the points added to your score increase. That progression is detailed in the link I posted.

Funny...I didn't realize until after I had adjusted for decades and the split to a two class system that my changes hurt Duluth East, since they won their first title in 1960 when point values were lower and won their other two titles after the two-class system was in place. Heh.

Lee