STA

[PuckU126]

From followthepuck.com... a very good overview of STA and other private schools... IMO...

Attention St. Thomas Academy: Isn't your move up overdue?

With Holy Family Catholic making the move up to Class AA after only three years of having their own independent hockey program, what is stopping St. Thomas Academy, the 2011 Class A State Champions? St. Thomas Academy hockey is a proven successful program and the Cadets play over 50 percent of their regular season schedule against Class AA teams and prep schools. The Cadets would most likely be welcomed with open arms and better respected by the boys high school hockey fan base if they decided to FINALLY move up. Section 3AA looks like a nice fit for them.

Holy Family Catholic 2011-2012 enrollment: 595 (boys & girls)
Hill-Murray 2011-2012 enrollment: 705 (boys & girls)
Academy of Holy Angels 2011-2012 enrollment: 741 (boys & girls)
St. Thomas Academy 2011-2012 enrollment: 1066 (all boys Academy)*

Additional Information:

*Since I made the post above, I received two emails that the St. Academy enrollment for grades 9 through 12 is actually 534. The Cadets school information can be found here: http://www.cadets.com/page/365

They, the MSHSL (Minnesota State High School League), doubled the number (1066) because it is an all boys school. Not sure why that was necessary but that is what they did. I think all they needed to do was list it as '534 (boys only)'.

One of the emails also suggested, since I was singling out St. Thomas Academy, that I should also call out Breck School, Hermantown, and Blake School to move up as well. They too have had successful hockey programs in recent years. The pro-St. Thomas Academy supporter that emailed me had a good point if we were strictly talking about similar enrollments and successful programs at the Class A level. However, we are talking about an ALL BOYS SCHOOL. They have 534 BOYS. The other three schools, cut in half to represent the number of potential boys, would be Breck (200), Blake (260), Hermantown (313).

My point is that St. Thomas Academy has a much larger pool of boys eligible to play hockey and that they schedule a majority of their games against Class AA teams or prep schools. They play like a Class AA team during the regular season but they go into the Class A tournaments looking like Goliath's big brother.

2010-2011 regular season games vs. Class AA and elite non-MSHSL prep schools:
St. Thomas Academy: 15 out of 25 | 60%
Blake School: 9 out of 25 | 36%
Breck School: 8 out of 25 | 32%
Hermantown: 6 out of 25 | 24%

New Class AA team Holy Family Catholic: 4 out of 24 | 16.7%

If St. Thomas Academy does not want to move up due to their enrollment size, that is absolutely their prerogative. However, if the Cadets argument is that they want to play better competition during the regular season, why does that not stay consistent with deciding to opt up to the Class AA level and play in that tournament where the better teams are?

St. Thomas Academy's record versus Class A schools in the last six years:

91-8-4 (.919 win percentage)

2010-2011: 16-0-0 | CLASS A CHAMPIONS
2009-2010: 13-2-0 (lost to Mahtomedi twice including the Section 4A title game)
2008-2009: 11-2-2 (lost to Duluth Marshall and Mahtomedi, Mahtomedi in the 4A title game)
2007-2008: 16-2-0 (lost to Breck and Duluth Marshall) | CLASS A CHAMPIONS
2006-2007: 17-1-1 (lost to Duluth Marshall at state and tied them regular season) | CLASS A THIRD PLACE
2005-2006: 18-1-1 (lost to Breck, tied Red Wing) | CLASS A CHAMPIONS

If it were not for Mahtomedi, St. Thomas Academy could be, should be looking at four straight Class A titles. But, somehow, Mahtomedi was able to upset St. Thomas Academy not once but twice in the Section 4A playoffs in back-to-back years thanks to some outstanding and timely goaltending by Brad Wohlers of the Zephyrs in both years. Mahtomedi was badly outshot in both games. In the 2010 playoffs, St. Thomas Academy outshot the Zephyrs 45-25. In 2009, 49-23 Cadets.

Some more information for the debate...

Thank you for solidifying the notion that STA has the capabilities and should opt up to Class AA, DmanDad.

Great post.

[HShockeywatcher]

Thank you for solidifying the notion that STA has the capabilities and should opt up to Class AA, DmanDad.

Great post.

Still, not a single poster in this entire thread has said they shouldn't be and people continue to post that they should as if someone is arguing with them

Funny how this train of thought only exists in high school hockey. In a class system based on enrollment, you are in a class based on your school's enrollment, nothing else. Allowing schools to opt up, and not down, gives the message that enrollment implies talent, which we all know it doesn't.

As I've said in other threads, I believe the top 64 teams based on enrollment should be in the top class and, until there is enough to create a 3rd class, the lower class will have the rest of the teams.
Since that is not being done, being in the higher class as apposed to the lower, seems to be a recruiting tool.

I took 5 minutes to go through enrollments. Of schools with hockey programs that do not need a co-op to exist (for example, I didn't count MPLS schools) St Thomas is 70th based on enrollment in the state. If the top half of the state were placed in AA, instead of top 64, without opt ups, they would be.

But enrollment in a school such as the public schools is typically geographically related NOT chosen for a specific purpose such as hockey. That tilts the scales so enrollment in this case DOES imply talent.

But we do not have a system where schools are required to be in a class with other schools of similar enrollments.

The "scales" are only "tilted" if you concede that enrollment somehow implies talent.

Either it does or it doesn't; the hockey community argues it doesn't all the time. If it really doesn't, then we should have two classes based solely on size, two champions based on size, not ability.

The "typically" you say is not really that typical...

Personally, I'm at a loss for what is "right" to do with private schools were you to fix this. I would say that based on size they should be in the class in the same proportion as the public schools. This would put the same ones there that are now, plus a few others.

[PuckU126]

Thank you for solidifying the notion that STA has the capabilities and should opt up to Class AA, DmanDad.

Great post.

Still, not a single poster in this entire thread has said they shouldn't be and people continue to post that they should as if someone is arguing with them

O well, at least the feeling is mutual by most.

[MrBoDangles]

Thank you for solidifying the notion that STA has the capabilities and should opt up to Class AA, DmanDad.

Great post.

Still, not a single poster in this entire thread has said they shouldn't be and people continue to post that they should as if someone is arguing with them

Funny how this train of thought only exists in high school hockey. In a class system based on enrollment, you are in a class based on your school's enrollment, nothing else. Allowing schools to opt up, and not down, gives the message that enrollment implies talent, which we all know it doesn't.

As I've said in other threads, I believe the top 64 teams based on enrollment should be in the top class and, until there is enough to create a 3rd class, the lower class will have the rest of the teams.
Since that is not being done, being in the higher class as apposed to the lower, seems to be a recruiting tool.

I took 5 minutes to go through enrollments. Of schools with hockey programs that do not need a co-op to exist (for example, I didn't count MPLS schools) St Thomas is 70th based on enrollment in the state. If the top half of the state were placed in AA, instead of top 64, without opt ups, they would be.

But enrollment in a school such as the public schools is typically geographically related NOT chosen for a specific purpose such as hockey. That tilts the scales so enrollment in this case DOES imply talent.

But we do not have a system where schools are required to be in a class with other schools of similar enrollments.

The "scales" are only "tilted" if you concede that enrollment somehow implies talent.

Either it does or it doesn't; the hockey community argues it doesn't all the time. If it really doesn't, then we should have two classes based solely on size, two champions based on size, not ability.

The "typically" you say is not really that typical...

Personally, I'm at a loss for what is "right" to do with private schools were you to fix this. I would say that based on size they should be in the class in the same proportion as the public schools. This would put the same ones there that are now, plus a few others.

Have you been reading the same thread? It must be spooky in your world..

[PuckRanger]

But we do not have a system where schools are required to be in a class with other schools of similar enrollments.

The "scales" are only "tilted" if you concede that enrollment somehow implies talent.

Either it does or it doesn't; the hockey community argues it doesn't all the time. If it really doesn't, then we should have two classes based solely on size, two champions based on size, not ability.

The "typically" you say is not really that typical...

Personally, I'm at a loss for what is "right" to do with private schools were you to fix this. I would say that based on size they should be in the class in the same proportion as the public schools. This would put the same ones there that are now, plus a few others.

The point you seem to either keep missing or ignoring is that the private schools, regardless of their enrollment, have the ability to draw from a MUCH larger talent pool (ie, STA draws from the entire metro area). A school like Little Falls high school on the other hand does not. Enrollment numbers are almost irrelevant for classifying private schools.

I agree that you can't place them based on talent. That is the old tier II disaster mentality. The best solution is that all private schools play AA.

There are many other statistics regarding private schools and their effect on class A hockey HERE.

[karl(east)]

But we do not have a system where schools are required to be in a class with other schools of similar enrollments.

The "scales" are only "tilted" if you concede that enrollment somehow implies talent.

Either it does or it doesn't; the hockey community argues it doesn't all the time. If it really doesn't, then we should have two classes based solely on size, two champions based on size, not ability.

The "typically" you say is not really that typical...

Personally, I'm at a loss for what is "right" to do with private schools were you to fix this. I would say that based on size they should be in the class in the same proportion as the public schools. This would put the same ones there that are now, plus a few others.

The point you seem to either keep missing or ignoring is that the private schools, regardless of their enrollment, have the ability to draw from a MUCH larger talent pool (ie, STA draws from the entire metro area). A school like Little Falls high school on the other hand does not. Enrollment numbers are almost irrelevant for classifying private schools.

I agree that you can't place them based on talent. That is the old tier II disaster mentality. The best solution is that all private schools play AA.

There are many other statistics regarding private schools and their effect on class A hockey HERE.

Some very interesting statistics there.

I'll ask the question I always ask at this point: do you think public schools that co-op with privates (ie. New Ulm, Mankato East, Sleepy Eye, River Lakes, Faribault, etc.) should be AA as well?

[The X]

But we do not have a system where schools are required to be in a class with other schools of similar enrollments.

The "scales" are only "tilted" if you concede that enrollment somehow implies talent.

Either it does or it doesn't; the hockey community argues it doesn't all the time. If it really doesn't, then we should have two classes based solely on size, two champions based on size, not ability.

The "typically" you say is not really that typical...

Personally, I'm at a loss for what is "right" to do with private schools were you to fix this. I would say that based on size they should be in the class in the same proportion as the public schools. This would put the same ones there that are now, plus a few others.

The point you seem to either keep missing or ignoring is that the private schools, regardless of their enrollment, have the ability to draw from a MUCH larger talent pool (ie, STA draws from the entire metro area). A school like Little Falls high school on the other hand does not. Enrollment numbers are almost irrelevant for classifying private schools.

I agree that you can't place them based on talent. That is the old tier II disaster mentality. The best solution is that all private schools play AA.

There are many other statistics regarding private schools and their effect on class A hockey HERE.

This is exactly what some of us have been saying for a long time. The reason why the privates have dominated is no secret, everyone knows why. There are lots of kids at public schools that are being denied the chance to play at state because of this being allowed by the MSHSL. But...I contend that these private teams are doing nothing against the rules by playing in class A at this time. This policy has been chosen by the MSHSL and they are the only group that can level the playing field. To this point, the MSHSL chooses to ignore this and deny thousands of players the chance they deserve. One has to wonder exactly why this is happening? Best guess would be that they have no answer whatsoever of how to fix this nor do they care about the issue. The 10 privates in class A have obviously proven they have no desire to move up unless it has advantages to their own agenda. The MSHSL is the only entity that can fix this, so.......Until they do that the class A privates are doing nothing wrong by playing in the class they have been assigned!! End of story.

[DotaDangler]

But we do not have a system where schools are required to be in a class with other schools of similar enrollments.

The "scales" are only "tilted" if you concede that enrollment somehow implies talent.

Either it does or it doesn't; the hockey community argues it doesn't all the time. If it really doesn't, then we should have two classes based solely on size, two champions based on size, not ability.

The "typically" you say is not really that typical...

Personally, I'm at a loss for what is "right" to do with private schools were you to fix this. I would say that based on size they should be in the class in the same proportion as the public schools. This would put the same ones there that are now, plus a few others.

The point you seem to either keep missing or ignoring is that the private schools, regardless of their enrollment, have the ability to draw from a MUCH larger talent pool (ie, STA draws from the entire metro area). A school like Little Falls high school on the other hand does not. Enrollment numbers are almost irrelevant for classifying private schools.

I agree that you can't place them based on talent. That is the old tier II disaster mentality. The best solution is that all private schools play AA.

There are many other statistics regarding private schools and their effect on class A hockey HERE.

This is exactly what some of us have been saying for a long time. The reason why the privates have dominated is no secret, everyone knows why. There are lots of kids at public schools that are being denied the chance to play at state because of this being allowed by the MSHSL. But...I contend that these private teams are doing nothing against the rules by playing in class A at this time. This policy has been chosen by the MSHSL and they are the only group that can level the playing field. To this point, the MSHSL chooses to ignore this and deny thousands of players the chance they deserve. One has to wonder exactly why this is happening? Best guess would be that they have no answer whatsoever of how to fix this nor do they care about the issue. The 10 privates in class A have obviously proven they have no desire to move up unless it has advantages to their own agenda. The MSHSL is the only entity that can fix this, so.......Until they do that the class A privates are doing nothing wrong by playing in the class they have been assigned!! End of story.

Great post Howie.

A letter to the MSHL would probably accomplish more than bitching online anonymously.

[puckster15]

In regard to STA not playing up, blame the headmaster and board at STA. Vanelli brothers want to play up, at least that is what the rumbling is within hockey circles.

Since they are dealt the single A cards, can't blame Vanelli's for doing what coaches want to do, develop their hockey players. Thus the AA games. Maybe STA will be without Tom Vanelli soon since they choose to stay at single A.

[defense]

The article by prep hockey north states what everyone already knows. Private schools have been dominating class A hockey. So, I pose the question: Any time some entity begins to dominate something, should we remove them?? What happens when St. Thomas Academy, Totino-Grace, Breck, Blake, St. Cloud Cathedra, DuLuth Marshall, and Lourdes High School move to AA and all of a sudden there are 3 or 4 Private Schools in the AA tournement?? The same percieved problems will be talked about.
If it is not broken, don't fix it.
The two class tournement definitely has helped public school teams in class A. I would doubt that Red Wing would've achieved their level of success in the single class format, same for Hermantown, even Warroad. Yes, these schools would've definitely had success, in Warroad's case it was already there, but, not at the same level achieved in class A. The same goes for numerous programs throughout MN. Teams such as East Grand Forks, Thief River Falls, Fergus Falls, Virginia, Orono, all had decent programs that produced strong teams from time to time....shall we say..in they became bigger fish in a smaller pond???
Class A has helped schools where hockey was not so popular gain noteriety for hockey, it has also helped schools that had "developing" programs achieve levels of success and stabiltity that would be years down the road in the single class.
I say all of this as a person who played hockey in outstate MN for a school who started in AA and whent to A. A team that was knocked out of class A state tournement championship contention by that first Benilde championship team. And numerous private schools who followed.
If there is a problem in MN high school hockey today, it is not the private schools. EVERYONE needs to look at their own hockey programs and ask themselves honestly: Are we really a class A team???? For MOST the answer would be NO.

[Hockey North]

AA or a seperate league would be fine with me for private schools. I would be a little more sympathetic to the Hermantown opinions on this post if their whole system was not peppered with "open enrollment" players. Including some of the top players.

What a shotgun statement with nothing to back it up. Every kid on this years Varsity has been with Hermantown from Squirts and up. Some families move and some have left the mess what is the Duluth Schools. That is not our fault. The school district has even closed open enrollment for certain grade levels. Its people like you that come on forums and talk out of your @#$ and make blanket statements. Jealousy I am assuming.

I guess you forgot about 2 players that came from Duluth (as peewees) that left because of the Duluth Schools and the Less attractive youth hockey program they were gonna have to play in at Peewees for the fairer confines of Hermantown. One is probably the 2nd leading scorer and 1 is a Def. I will also say that Duluth Heights and ProctorTwig associations have lost quite a few players that open enrolled that are as young as Squirt level now. This all happened in the last 3-5 years. No doubt this has helped Hermantown become much stronger. You are right, not your fault, but open enrollment has helped Hermantown.

[MNHockeyFan]

No doubt this has helped Hermantown become much stronger. You are right, not your fault, but open enrollment has helped Hermantown.

It's great that these kids and their parents had a choice, whatever the reasons, whether it be better academics, surrounding themselves with other kids who want to excel or even to become part of a better hockey program. The reason(s) why they open enrolled don't matter. What matters most is that they had a choice! If enough other kids make the same decision who knows it just might force other schools in the area to get better if they want to retain their students and athletes. Really it's not much different than a private school attracting kids who believe another alternative might help them.

[HawkeyPower]

AA or a seperate league would be fine with me for private schools. I would be a little more sympathetic to the Hermantown opinions on this post if their whole system was not peppered with "open enrollment" players. Including some of the top players.

What a shotgun statement with nothing to back it up. Every kid on this years Varsity has been with Hermantown from Squirts and up. Some families move and some have left the mess what is the Duluth Schools. That is not our fault. The school district has even closed open enrollment for certain grade levels. Its people like you that come on forums and talk out of your @#$ and make blanket statements. Jealousy I am assuming.

I guess you forgot about 2 players that came from Duluth (as peewees) that left because of the Duluth Schools and the Less attractive youth hockey program they were gonna have to play in at Peewees for the fairer confines of Hermantown. One is probably the 2nd leading scorer and 1 is a Def. I will also say that Duluth Heights and ProctorTwig associations have lost quite a few players that open enrolled that are as young as Squirt level now. This all happened in the last 3-5 years. No doubt this has helped Hermantown become much stronger. You are right, not your fault, but open enrollment has helped Hermantown.

If I know who you are talking about, I beleive those families have houses within the school district. So some can in as Peewees, its still 3-4 years in the youth program.

[WB6162]

No doubt this has helped Hermantown become much stronger. You are right, not your fault, but open enrollment has helped Hermantown.

It's great that these kids and their parents had a choice, whatever the reasons, whether it be better academics, surrounding themselves with other kids who want to excel or even to become part of a better hockey program. The reason(s) why they open enrolled don't matter. What matters most is that they had a choice! If enough other kids make the same decision who knows it just might force other schools in the area to get better if they want to retain their students and athletes. Really it's not much different than a private school attracting kids who believe another alternative might help them.

So teaching the kids loyalty to their hometown school means nothing to you? I guess these are the morals that Enron and Lehman Bros was built on. Look out for yourself, screw the buddies you grew up with and the coaches who helped you as a kid. Just look out for #1 and of course bring glory to your parents

I think I'm on to this line of thinking.

[interestedbystander]

Because, of course, your buddies always have your best interests at the top of their priority list and would lay down their lives for you....... isn't there a country song that goes something like that? Choices force those with an inferior product to either fail or get better. What thousand acre woods are you living in?

[sachishi4]

Why does there need to be "loyalty" to a hometown school? They have never gone there and have no requirement to attend that school. The school has done nothing for them. The hockey association and parents did the work. The kid probably also put in a lot of work outside of school to do this himself. The city schools dont own these kids, and whether it is open enrollment (which is just as much recruitment as anything) or a private school, the kids have a choice. They are not bound to a contract. Why should they be "loyal" to a school they might not want anything to do with?

city hockey associations DO NOT EQUAL high school hockey requirements. And if the public high school coach is out there "telling" these kids which school to go to and giving them the perks of going to one school or the other, that is blatant recruitment. And yes, it does happen in public schools. All the time.

[MNHockeyFan]

So teaching the kids loyalty to their hometown school means nothing to you?

Why should anyone be "loyal" to a school, before they even go there? Should everyone also be loyal to the closest church, even if it may not be the best choice?

I guess these are the morals that Enron and Lehman Bros was built on.

Well that's a great comparison!

Look out for yourself, screw the buddies you grew up with and the coaches who helped you as a kid. Just look out for #1 and of course bring glory to your parents

I do believe that everyone needs to look out for him or herself first. It's very foolish to rely on others who may or may not have your best interest in mind. That includes your "buddies" who you grew up with in elementary and middle school. You'll probably lose track of them pretty soon after they graduate, as their interests change and they find new "buddies" (or a wife) to hang with. And screw "the coaches who helped you as a kid"? Doubtful they are the same guys who coach the local high school. Coaches move around all the time, and it would be foolish for them to base their decisions on who they coached 5 or 10 years earlier. And bring glory to your parents? At some point kids get away from making their decisions based on what will please their parents (but even so they should owe more loyalty to the people that raised them than any school or coach).

[defense]

True to your school....sounds like a beach boys tune.
Anyway, choosing a different school than the one you live in is what's happenign all over MN. It's open enrollment. These kids switched as peewees and there is bitterness about it????? I would even give a little if it were bantams, but these kids switched in 6th or 7th grade.....big deal. Did they stay with their decision??? That is the biggest question. Did they totally support their decision??? Stay with it??? Not if they should be loyal to DuLuth instead of going to Hermantown. YOu know what??? Maybe these kids' parents decided that they did not like that the Duluth Schools were combining, and decided to go to a different and better situation.....thought of that??

[interestedbystander]

Exactly. But leave for academics and a peaceful school environment? Unheard of. LOL. Besides, how much loyalty do you think the kid is getting in return? I don't think for a minute that his spot isn't gone when the next best thing skates into town or the next big wallet buys the association board. Loyalty is a two way street. Just sayin.

[Northhcky]

AA or a seperate league would be fine with me for private schools. I would be a little more sympathetic to the Hermantown opinions on this post if their whole system was not peppered with "open enrollment" players. Including some of the top players.

What a shotgun statement with nothing to back it up. Every kid on this years Varsity has been with Hermantown from Squirts and up. Some families move and some have left the mess what is the Duluth Schools. That is not our fault. The school district has even closed open enrollment for certain grade levels. Its people like you that come on forums and talk out of your @#$ and make blanket statements. Jealousy I am assuming.

I guess you forgot about 2 players that came from Duluth (as peewees) that left because of the Duluth Schools and the Less attractive youth hockey program they were gonna have to play in at Peewees for the fairer confines of Hermantown. One is probably the 2nd leading scorer and 1 is a Def. I will also say that Duluth Heights and ProctorTwig associations have lost quite a few players that open enrolled that are as young as Squirt level now. This all happened in the last 3-5 years. No doubt this has helped Hermantown become much stronger. You are right, not your fault, but open enrollment has helped Hermantown.

As far as you saying the 2nd leading scorer on Hermantown is open enrolled thats just bs. I assume your talking about Thomas and his parents bought a home about 2 blocks from the HS years ago. As far as one of the defensemen your talking about i have no clue who that would be as they all reside in Hermantown and have for years. No one, i repeat no one from Hermantowns HS team is open enrolled! Got it. Some moved there as youths but thats the keyword. "moved".
Most grades are at capacity so any open enrollment has been pretty much shut down. Only allowed at a couple lower grades now. Hermantown "along with Esko" consistantly has higher academic achievement levels than all the surrounding area. Can't blame anyone for wanting to get there kids in if they can. There are waiting lists that have nothing to do with sports.

[defense]

Exactly. But leave for academics and a peaceful school environment? Unheard of. LOL. Besides, how much loyalty do you think the kid is getting in return? I don't think for a minute that his spot isn't gone when the next best thing skates into town or the next big wallet buys the association board. Loyalty is a two way street. Just sayin.

As a parent of a 3rd grader and 4 year old, if something like combining two schools in the town came up, under certain unforseen circumstances, I guess I would look really hard at moving my kids to a different school. Duluth has good hockey all around, some programs have been better than others....but how long untill Hermantown is not the "power" anymore?
And even IF someone moved to Hermantown partially because of the hockey....or if someone open enrolled at Hermantown totally for the hockey, so be it. Big deal....honestly...the old team didn't need him anyway if that's the way it is.

[No Political Connections]

Exactly. But leave for academics and a peaceful school environment? Unheard of. LOL. Besides, how much loyalty do you think the kid is getting in return? I don't think for a minute that his spot isn't gone when the next best thing skates into town or the next big wallet buys the association board. Loyalty is a two way street. Just sayin.

As a parent of a 3rd grader and 4 year old, if something like combining two schools in the town came up, under certain unforseen circumstances, I guess I would look really hard at moving my kids to a different school. Duluth has good hockey all around, some programs have been better than others....but how long untill Hermantown is not the "power" anymore?
And even IF someone moved to Hermantown partially because of the hockey....or if someone open enrolled at Hermantown totally for the hockey, so be it. Big deal....honestly...the old team didn't need him anyway if that's the way it is.

Do some people go to Hermantown for hockey? Sure, but if you look at Duluth and it's schools and all of the "stuff" going on in it you would leave too. From what I have seen of the schools and their problems in the newspapers I think it is safe to say that Hermantown, Cloquet, Esko, etc are all going to grow even more with people fleeing Duluth. Along with the hockey getting stronger so will basketball, football, track and etc. A rising tide raises all ships and conversely a lowering tide lowers all ships.

[PuckRanger]

But we do not have a system where schools are required to be in a class with other schools of similar enrollments.

The "scales" are only "tilted" if you concede that enrollment somehow implies talent.

Either it does or it doesn't; the hockey community argues it doesn't all the time. If it really doesn't, then we should have two classes based solely on size, two champions based on size, not ability.

The "typically" you say is not really that typical...

Personally, I'm at a loss for what is "right" to do with private schools were you to fix this. I would say that based on size they should be in the class in the same proportion as the public schools. This would put the same ones there that are now, plus a few others.

The point you seem to either keep missing or ignoring is that the private schools, regardless of their enrollment, have the ability to draw from a MUCH larger talent pool (ie, STA draws from the entire metro area). A school like Little Falls high school on the other hand does not. Enrollment numbers are almost irrelevant for classifying private schools.

I agree that you can't place them based on talent. That is the old tier II disaster mentality. The best solution is that all private schools play AA.

There are many other statistics regarding private schools and their effect on class A hockey HERE.

Some very interesting statistics there.

I'll ask the question I always ask at this point: do you think public schools that co-op with privates (ie. New Ulm, Mankato East, Sleepy Eye, River Lakes, Faribault, etc.) should be AA as well?

I would say no, as long as the "host" school is public. Most of these coop schools are so small their contribution to the hockey program is almost insignificant.

[HShockeywatcher]

No doubt this has helped Hermantown become much stronger. You are right, not your fault, but open enrollment has helped Hermantown.

It's great that these kids and their parents had a choice, whatever the reasons, whether it be better academics, surrounding themselves with other kids who want to excel or even to become part of a better hockey program. The reason(s) why they open enrolled don't matter. What matters most is that they had a choice! If enough other kids make the same decision who knows it just might force other schools in the area to get better if they want to retain their students and athletes. Really it's not much different than a private school attracting kids who believe another alternative might help them.

I'd say Hermantown is probably the worst example in the state.
That being said, open enrollment is the reason many public school teams are good in many different sports/activities. Heck, there was even a poster to say recently that good hockey players from Baudette usually open enroll to Warroad.
Private schools do have a clear advantage for many reasons over public schools, but one of them is not that students elsewhere can go there, in most cases.

Some moved there as youths but thats the keyword. "moved".

So it's okay to leave your community if you physically get up and move your whole family, but if you happen to like the area you live in, but if you simply want to send your child to a school, public or private, (oh wait, we only care if it's private) for whatever reason, it's not okay?

Because, of course, your buddies always have your best interests at the top of their priority list and would lay down their lives for you....... isn't there a country song that goes something like that? Choices force those with an inferior product to either fail or get better. What thousand acre woods are you living in?

We are a country that lives and dies by the market and freedom of choice in a product...unless it is something we all pay for. The average public school student in America costs the public $9,000 a year. I would much prefer the schools were fighting over students than simply taking the ones that are "loyal" to their community. I wish you could open enroll anywhere you wanted for any reason and there were more communities like Hermantown that everyone wanted to get into for obvious reasons.

I'll ask the question I always ask at this point: do you think public schools that co-op with privates (ie. New Ulm, Mankato East, Sleepy Eye, River Lakes, Faribault, etc.) should be AA as well?

I would say no, as long as the "host" school is public. Most of these coop schools are so small their contribution to the hockey program is almost insignificant.

And here in lines one of a couple issues I have with the "private schools should be in AA" debate; it is only an issue if the school is good. No one cared about St Thomas being in Class A in 2004, heck even 2005, for the same reasons no one cares that Providence Academy or New Ulm Cathedral are in Class A.

[PuckRanger]

And here in lines one of a couple issues I have with the "private schools should be in AA" debate; it is only an issue if the school is good. No one cared about St Thomas being in Class A in 2004, heck even 2005, for the same reasons no one cares that Providence Academy or New Ulm Cathedral are in Class A.

Not true. St. Thomas Academy is just the one being discussed now. Before that it was Benilde and Duluth Marshall, amongst others. Before 2000, it wasn't much of an issue because class A was still relatively new. The reason people are mentioning St. Thomas Academy is because this thread is titled "STA".

Do you believe that New Ulm Cathedral (which graduates roughly 20-30 boys each year and does not have their own hockey program) holds the same kind of advantages as a school like St. Thomas Academy or Hill-Murray? I would say no. Its hard to use hockey as a draw for more students when they will be wearing the sweater of New Ulm public high school. If these schools start finding a way to begin exploiting this in the future, then off to AA with them as well. I doubt this would happen, though. My guess is the coop would be dissolved before it got to that point.

And yes, Providence Academy belongs in AA (along with Legacy Christian, St. Paul Saints, St. Paul Academy, and Minnehaha Academy.) - they are the host private school. They can offer those same advantages if they choose to do so.

Its not about being good in hockey, its about their ability to draw from a large pool of players which greatly enhances their ability to be good.

I do have an issue with the arguments about a school having to make improvements to keep its athletes. This line of thinking is exactly what is causing the demise of small school hockey. Chisholm, Babbitt-Embarrass, Mesabi East are three schools that come to mind that simply didn't have the resources available to them to retain enough players to keep their own hockey program. Silver Bay, Two Harbors, and Greenway aren't far behind. And this is just one part of the state! The metro area is a different beast and likening everything to the corporate world is a dangerous approach for outstate schools. The money and resources just aren't available.