Parent official for league game

hockeysqA · Post by **hockeysqA** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:40 pm

TheJet wrote:
hockeysqA wrote:
TheJet wrote: District 8. Tied 1-1. 45 minute game. Zero penalties. Took a goal from us even some opposing team parents said was in (which was in).
REALLY?!!? I doubt the opposing team parents said it was in! It was NOT in..it hit the cross bar..it is on tape! The high school ref is the one who called off the goal..not "the guy working his kids game"![/quote

Yes REALLY?!!? The goal is/was a small part that comes with the territory when something like this is/was allowed to happen - any close play, non call, etc. is going to be brought to the forefront, that's the way it is (but would love to see the angle you have from the opposite end of the ice). Anyhow, don't you think it's ironic a parent of the opposing side would say "I wonder if the ref has a kid on this team"? The sense was there despite your opinion, like it or not. No matter how anyone spins it - high school kid, dad, grandpa, brother, whatever = wrong. It seems almost everyone hear would agree it was wrong unless there were extenuating circumstances. What were the circumstances? Thank you.
Again...The high school ref is the one who called off the goal..not "the guy working his kids game"

TheJet · Post by **TheJet** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:51 pm

hockeysqA wrote:
TheJet wrote:
hockeysqA wrote: REALLY?!!? I doubt the opposing team parents said it was in! It was NOT in..it hit the cross bar..it is on tape! The high school ref is the one who called off the goal..not "the guy working his kids game"![/quote

Yes REALLY?!!? The goal is/was a small part that comes with the territory when something like this is/was allowed to happen - any close play, non call, etc. is going to be brought to the forefront, that's the way it is (but would love to see the angle you have from the opposite end of the ice). Anyhow, don't you think it's ironic a parent of the opposing side would say "I wonder if the ref has a kid on this team"? The sense was there despite your opinion, like it or not. No matter how anyone spins it - high school kid, dad, grandpa, brother, whatever = wrong. It seems almost everyone hear would agree it was wrong unless there were extenuating circumstances. What were the circumstances? Thank you.
Again...The high school ref is the one who called off the goal..not "the guy working his kids game"
And I never said it was. Good luck the rest of the way, I like the direction of the program you are with - great things to come.

hocmom · Post by **hocmom** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:06 pm

Again, please understand, I am not in any way justifying a parent reffing unless it was a last resort. I absolutely agree with you that it shouldn't happen.

This kind of saddens me. It means that at a youth hockey level we have to avoid any "appearance" of impropriety. It assumes ill will on the part of a grown man officiating a bunch of kids in a game that has no consequence. Sad.

That said, I am going to back off on my earlier jab at squirt parents. There is a good reason that they are the way they are. I think it is because they have not yet lost their edge. They still recognize how important the game is. They are still fresh off of hours of time spent at home each evening studying the rules, the parents of the older kids (and refs) have long since forgotten the rules. They are still courageous, they have no fear of making complete asses of themselves. It is sad that this edge gradually wears off. Only the very best of us can stay sharp. Don't give up, hang on to your edge. We are all in this together.

Ugottobekiddingme · Post by **Ugottobekiddingme** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:50 am

hocmom wrote:
Again, please understand, I am not in any way justifying a parent reffing unless it was a last resort. I absolutely agree with you that it shouldn't happen.
This kind of saddens me. It means that at a youth hockey level we have to avoid any "appearance" of impropriety. It assumes ill will on the part of a grown man officiating a bunch of kids in a game that has no consequence. Sad.

That said, I am going to back off on my earlier jab at squirt parents. There is a good reason that they are the way they are. I think it is because they have not yet lost their edge. They still recognize how important the game is. They are still fresh off of hours of time spent at home each evening studying the rules, the parents of the older kids (and refs) have long since forgotten the rules. They are still courageous, they have no fear of making complete asses of themselves. It is sad that this edge gradually wears off. Only the very best of us can stay sharp. Don't give up, hang on to your edge. We are all in this together.

I need to start sniffing glue again...what??

bluemancrew · Post by **bluemancrew** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:44 am

North Region Tournament

Hibbing vs. Virginia

Young Goal Judge from opposing town was texting with her friend during a goal. Ref looked up for the red light and called the goal off. Several people from different teams saw the goal. Score was 1-1 at the time.

TheJet · Post by **TheJet** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:31 am

bluemancrew wrote:North Region Tournament

Hibbing vs. Virginia

Young Goal Judge from opposing town was texting with her friend during a goal. Ref looked up for the red light and called the goal off. Several people from different teams saw the goal. Score was 1-1 at the time.

Hope it didn't change final outcome.

TheJet · Post by **TheJet** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:32 am

Ugottobekiddingme wrote:
hocmom wrote:
Again, please understand, I am not in any way justifying a parent reffing unless it was a last resort. I absolutely agree with you that it shouldn't happen.
This kind of saddens me. It means that at a youth hockey level we have to avoid any "appearance" of impropriety. It assumes ill will on the part of a grown man officiating a bunch of kids in a game that has no consequence. Sad.

That said, I am going to back off on my earlier jab at squirt parents. There is a good reason that they are the way they are. I think it is because they have not yet lost their edge. They still recognize how important the game is. They are still fresh off of hours of time spent at home each evening studying the rules, the parents of the older kids (and refs) have long since forgotten the rules. They are still courageous, they have no fear of making complete asses of themselves. It is sad that this edge gradually wears off. Only the very best of us can stay sharp. Don't give up, hang on to your edge. We are all in this together.
I need to start sniffing glue again...what??

I'll second that.

HockeyDad41 · Post by **HockeyDad41** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:03 am

bluemancrew wrote:North Region Tournament

Hibbing vs. Virginia

Young Goal Judge from opposing town was texting with her friend during a goal. Ref looked up for the red light and called the goal off. Several people from different teams saw the goal. Score was 1-1 at the time.

What level?

bluemancrew · Post by **bluemancrew** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:03 pm

North Region Bantam A

Final:
Hibbing 2
Virginia 1

Unfortunately, good/responsible tournament directors had to reprimand a young goal judge for a poor work ethic. It could have been a game changer?

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:27 pm

Through all this back and forth, I've not heard if the officials did a good job or not?

Forget about the personal side of what should happen, or which calls should be made, or which puck crossed the line.

Did the officials do their job?

TheJet · Post by **TheJet** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:51 pm

inthestands wrote:Through all this back and forth, I've not heard if the officials did a good job or not?

Forget about the personal side of what should happen, or which calls should be made, or which puck crossed the line.

Did the officials do their job?

You'll get yes and no depending on what side you sit on.

Mnhockeys · Post by **Mnhockeys** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:15 pm

inthestands wrote:Through all this back and forth, I've not heard if the officials did a good job or not?

Forget about the personal side of what should happen, or which calls should be made, or which puck crossed the line.

Did the officials do their job?

The first post basically gave you the answer! And if it was a fairly officiated game, this parent or/and ref thing probably would not be questioned.

About the level of plays, it does not matter. When you are accepted to get paid to officiate a game, you got to do your best and be fair with both teams.

We all understand it is hard for a parent to be in partial with our kid's game, that is why parent ref is a bad idea!

Mnhockeys · Post by **Mnhockeys** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:23 pm

hocmom wrote:
Again, please understand, I am not in any way justifying a parent reffing unless it was a last resort. I absolutely agree with you that it shouldn't happen.
This kind of saddens me. It means that at a youth hockey level we have to avoid any "appearance" of impropriety. It assumes ill will on the part of a grown man officiating a bunch of kids in a game that has no consequence. Sad.

That said, I am going to back off on my earlier jab at squirt parents. There is a good reason that they are the way they are. I think it is because they have not yet lost their edge. They still recognize how important the game is. They are still fresh off of hours of time spent at home each evening studying the rules, the parents of the older kids (and refs) have long since forgotten the rules. They are still courageous, they have no fear of making complete asses of themselves. It is sad that this edge gradually wears off. Only the very best of us can stay sharp. Don't give up, hang on to your edge. We are all in this together.

Were you not a squirt parent before? Not all squirt or mite parents need to grow up as suggested. Have you heard Bantam parent yelled at the ref during the game "Ref, You sucked!"?

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:22 pm

Mnhockeys wrote:
inthestands wrote:Through all this back and forth, I've not heard if the officials did a good job or not?

Forget about the personal side of what should happen, or which calls should be made, or which puck crossed the line.

Did the officials do their job?
The first post basically gave you the answer! And if it was a fairly officiated game, this parent or/and ref thing probably would not be questioned.

About the level of plays, it does not matter. When you are accepted to get paid to officiate a game, you got to do your best and be fair with both teams.

We all understand it is hard for a parent to be in partial with our kid's game, that is why parent ref is a bad idea!

I didn't see the basic answer you speak of?
Squirt game last night, team parent on our side says to me you think the ref has a kid on the team or something?
That doesn't really tell me they did a good job.

Actually, in most cases a parent reffing their kids game tend to be harder on them than others. Mostly because they've seen all the bad habits over and over agai.

Most districts have rules against that, but I'm confident there are situations that occurr out of everyone's control.

On another note, the goal judge is not the final authority on a goal. They are in place to assist the on-ice officials in case of questions. It's nice when the light comes on in conjuntion with the officials signal, but does not confirm anything 100%.

bluemancrew · Post by **bluemancrew** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:46 pm

My point...

It doesn't matter if it's a Squirt Game or Bantam Region, the ref can only call what he can see.
I could only see the goal, not the texting.

The best teams are still going to State...

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:05 am

blueman: The goal judge requirement is a joke. Put some kid behind the net and that somehow helps the ref? Place the cause were it belongs. 1 Ref 2 Linesmen system. Refs coming into the zone late calling goals from the top of the circle? Ignoring a goal judge saying it was no goal. Missing half the game trying to get from end to end without running into the linesmen.

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:39 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:blueman: The goal judge requirement is a joke. Put some kid behind the net and that somehow helps the ref? Place the cause were it belongs. 1 Ref 2 Linesmen system. Refs coming into the zone late calling goals from the top of the circle? Ignoring a goal judge saying it was no goal. Missing half the game trying to get from end to end without running into the linesmen.

Actually BB82 the goal judge requirement is very helpful if the people are given, and follow direction.

In the 1/2 system you reference, the goal judge can make a huge difference if they pay attention and do their job. The judges should be adults, and able to sit for a period at a time without having their nose glued to a cell phone.

Until the powers that be decide to change the 1/2 system, that is what we have to work with. I understand the arguments for and against, and am glad I don't have to make the call which is best..

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:57 am

If goal judges are so important, they should be paid and most logical source would be lower level referees gaining additional experience. I was standing by the goal judge with about 20 others along the end board glass. The goal judge and all 20 of us saw that the puck never crossed the goal line. Was NOT a goal. Ref coming in from the top of the circle called it a goal. Never consulted with the goal judge.

Support the 3 man system all you want. The fact the refs hate it says it all.

Got old watching missed call after missed call because the ref was looking elsewhere.

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:10 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:If goal judges are so important, they should be paid and most logical source would be lower level referees gaining additional experience. I was standing by the goal judge with about 20 others along the end board glass. The goal judge and all 20 of us saw that the puck never crossed the goal line. Was NOT a goal. Ref coming in from the top of the circle called it a goal. Never consulted with the goal judge.

Support the 3 man system all you want. The fact the refs hate it says it all.

Got old watching missed call after missed call because the ref was looking elsewhere.

Do you read posts before responding? I didn't support anything, but did say I understand the thought process behind both arguments..

The High school playoffs follow the system you just outlined. USA hockey does not, at least that I remember. Probably a dollars and cents decision, but I'm just guessing there.

I didn't read the opinions of missed call after missed call from anyone else, but didn't attend the game. If you've officiated Bantam A level hockey, your opinion would be valuable.

BadgerBob82 · Post by **BadgerBob82** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:22 am

inthestands: I'm sorry, I didn't mean "you" as in YOU. I meant to any reader in general being the you.

I have refereed up to JV hockey. (Years ago, JV games had their own referees and the Varsity got the "good refs") Granted, this was before refs had to wear helmets but still, the game is roughly the same.

My two main points are the 1 ref / 2 linesman system is terrible. The only plausible plus for this system is the potential of consistency in the calls. Which doesn't prove true either.

Goal judges for youth games are not needed. The ref will make the final call so having some Mom or Dad fill a work slot on a volunteer sheet means nothing. If it is that important, hire the job out as is done with the referees. The 2 ref / 1 linesman system helps put the ref in a position to actually call goals! (While the other can watch the rest of the play)

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:45 am

BB92, Agreed on all points.

Today they use the same team to officiate the JV and Varsity level games. There are times when only 2 can make it, but they are the "good refs" for both. Although many would agrue there are no good ones..

USA hockey is finding it more difficult to get good quality "referees". The linesman job is filled fairly easily. More than 50% of first year officials quit after the initial season. You can't build a system around that. There are a myriad of reasons for the decline, and many older officials are retiring for one reason or another.

Goal judges are a nice fail safe in case of questions. As long as they do their job, and only that.

We are a dying breed, those guys that can remember reffing when helmets weren't required, or even recommended...

Ugh · Post by **Ugh** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:50 pm

Out of a Twin Cities district there was a game with an on-ice ref who is in a relationship with a district official and that district official has a skater on the ice. Any calls affected? Don't know. Would everyone, probably including the on-ice ref, wish to avoid it? I would guess yes. At the end of the day, everyone, squirts to the NHL, just wants a fair shake out of the game and let the players decide it, not the refs.

bluemancrew · Post by **bluemancrew** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:21 am

BadgerBob82 wrote:If goal judges are so important, they should be paid and most logical source would be lower level referees gaining additional experience. I was standing by the goal judge with about 20 others along the end board glass. The goal judge and all 20 of us saw that the puck never crossed the goal line. Was NOT a goal. Ref coming in from the top of the circle called it a goal. Never consulted with the goal judge.

Support the 3 man system all you want. The fact the refs hate it says it all.

Got old watching missed call after missed call because the ref was looking elsewhere.

I think we are talking about two different calls.

___________________________________________________________

Bluejackets 2
Rochester 1 Go Jackets..

hocmom · Post by **hocmom** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:34 am

Ugh wrote:Out of a Twin Cities district there was a game with an on-ice ref who is in a relationship with a district official and that district official has a skater on the ice. Any calls affected? Don't know. Would everyone, probably including the on-ice ref, wish to avoid it? I would guess yes. At the end of the day, everyone, squirts to the NHL, just wants a fair shake out of the game and let the players decide it, not the refs.

One of the team parents was dating the ref. Cheaters.

We have a strict set of rules in our assn. No parent, sibling, cousin, classmate, alumni from same school or those that eat in the same pizza joint can ref... We pretty much hire out of state refs.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:53 am

It really isn't that hard, people. In our area the ref can communicate those teams with which he or she has a conflict. If a ref has a little sister playing on the hometown 10UB team, then he discloses that information, and the scheduler puts him on the ice for game other than hometown 10UB.

Are associations really scheduling refs without telling them what teams they'll be reffing?
Are refs really so desperate for the $25 that they would try to sneak onto the ice of their kid's game?
How is the coach supposed to be able to lay into the guy about an off-sides call if he's related to his left wing?