Top programs of all time

218er · Post by **218er** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:39 pm

I think The Thirsty Whale hit all of them. I think the Top two would be Roseau and Edina (as much as a hate to say it). They have stood the test of times over a 50+ year period. Teams like Eveleth and the St. Paul teams did really stand the test of times, and are no longer top teams.

With that being said, there aren't many programs that have produced the following... Impressive...

http://www.hometeamsonline.com/teams/de ... %20Records

GordonBombay99 · Post by **GordonBombay99** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:44 pm

Despite not having as much success lately I still think Eveleth needs to be very high on any list created just because of how they dominated hockey in Minnesota back in the 40s and 50s. But the usual suspects will definitely be on this list also.

defense · Post by **defense** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:51 pm

The whole idea sounds like a joke. Yes, East hockey fans, we bow down to you because you decided to play hockey against the twin cities teams...great....let's see then: Roseau will be #1, Edina #2, DuLuth East #3...... This is likely impossible to accomplish, good luck.

EastMetro Hockey10 · Post by **EastMetro Hockey10** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:18 pm

These are the best 4 I thought of off the top of my head.

Edina (Best Metro): More state titles then anyone enough said.

Bloomington Jefferson (2nd Best Metro): Dominant in the late 80's and 90's not as good now but still a solid program.

Roseau (Best Northern): Up and down the last couple years but they've won a ton of state titles with a tiny enrollment.

Hill-Murray (Best Private): 3 state titles and a ton of state appearances overall I don't think any private school compares to what the Pioneers have done.

Post by **east hockey** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:39 pm

defense wrote:The whole idea sounds like a joke. Yes, East hockey fans, we bow down to you because you decided to play hockey against the twin cities teams...great....let's see then: Roseau will be #1, Edina #2, DuLuth East #3...... This is likely impossible to accomplish, good luck.

East won't be #3. Won't be in the top five unless they do something significant at state this week.

Lee

Bigshooter44 · Post by **Bigshooter44** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 4:58 am

1. Edina
2. Roseau
3. Jefferson
4. Eveleth
5. Grand Rapids
6. Duluth East
7. Hill-Murray
8. South St.Paul
9. Moorhead
10. St.Paul Johnson / Warroad

codemanh · Post by **codemanh** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:22 am

The only problem I see so far is that I don't think that class 'A' should be less then half of 'AA'. Sure, teams can opt up but there is no way you can say Warroad is a lesser program because they don't opt up. We all know they could make the 'AA' tourney quite often, but it would come down to them and Roseau almost every year.

GordonBombay99 · Post by **GordonBombay99** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:17 pm

Could always make a Class A list and a Class AA list and then go from there to solve some of that problem.

zamboni14 · Post by **zamboni14** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:29 pm

codemanh wrote:The only problem I see so far is that I don't think that class 'A' should be less then half of 'AA'. Sure, teams can opt up but there is no way you can say Warroad is a lesser program because they don't opt up. We all know they could make the 'AA' tourney quite often, but it would come down to them and Roseau almost every year.

Moorhead might have a few things to say about Warroad making it to state if they played AA.

As much as people see Roseau and want to lump Warroad in with them (in terms of small school beating the big schools,) I think Warroad gets overrated in terms of "grandness" or legacy. How many titles does Roseau have while playing against the big schools? 7. How many does Warroad have? ZERO! All 4 of Warroad's titles have been playing in class A, and most of their state tournament births have been while playing in class A. Yes they can beat some of the big schools (but they aren't the only small school that can do that,) but can they compete with the likes of Edina, Hill Murry or Duluth East and come out on top more times then not? Sorry, but no.

GordonBombay99 · Post by **GordonBombay99** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:37 pm

zamboni14 wrote:
codemanh wrote:The only problem I see so far is that I don't think that class 'A' should be less then half of 'AA'. Sure, teams can opt up but there is no way you can say Warroad is a lesser program because they don't opt up. We all know they could make the 'AA' tourney quite often, but it would come down to them and Roseau almost every year.
Moorhead might have a few things to say about Warroad making it to state if they played AA.

As much as people see Roseau and want to lump Warroad in with them (in terms of small school beating the big schools,) I think Warroad gets overrated in terms of "grandness" or legacy. How many titles does Roseau have while playing against the big schools? 7. How many does Warroad have? ZERO! All 4 of Warroad's titles have been playing in class A, and most of their state tournament births have been while playing in class A. Yes they can beat some of the big schools (but they aren't the only small school that can do that,) but can they compete with the likes of Edina, Hill Murry or Duluth East and come out on top more times then not? Sorry, but no.

It would make 8AA very loaded if Warroad opted up and it would easily be a 3 team race for state each year.

Post by **east hockey** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:39 pm

GordonBombay99 wrote:Could always make a Class A list and a Class AA list and then go from there to solve some of that problem.

Gordon, the problem I ran into when I thought about doing that was there are some teams which have made state in both classes. If I include Warroad in Class A, what to do with the points they get in the single class tournament? Vice versa. Do I then include them in both classes? Similar problem for Alexandria and Benilde, to name just a couple which occur to me.

code, Warroad is a good example of a team which may have done well in Class AA. They probably would have made the tournament a number of times. Then there is the flip side of the argument. Looking at the winners in section 6A, would any of them have beaten out the 6AA teams to get to state?

The 0.36 I came up with was the result of comparing the PageStat ratings of every Class A team to every Class AA team over the past eleven years. This was a huge sampling of over 83,000 comparisons and gave me a certain amount of confidence.

Which brought me to another idea; compare the PageStat rating of the Class A representative to the Class AA rep from the same section and award various pt totals based on that. It could work but it also could only go back to the 1997-98 season, when PageStat first started. Then there is the problem of how to convert the PageStat difference into a ratio. My eyes blur just thinking about trying to do this. Someone warned me early on in the feedback about making it too complicated. I think this would cross over that line.

Good ideas and discussion thus far!

Lee

Post by **east hockey** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:47 pm

zamboni14 wrote:
codemanh wrote:The only problem I see so far is that I don't think that class 'A' should be less then half of 'AA'. Sure, teams can opt up but there is no way you can say Warroad is a lesser program because they don't opt up. We all know they could make the 'AA' tourney quite often, but it would come down to them and Roseau almost every year.
Moorhead might have a few things to say about Warroad making it to state if they played AA.

As much as people see Roseau and want to lump Warroad in with them (in terms of small school beating the big schools,) I think Warroad gets overrated in terms of "grandness" or legacy. How many titles does Roseau have while playing against the big schools? 7. How many does Warroad have? ZERO! All 4 of Warroad's titles have been playing in class A, and most of their state tournament births have been while playing in class A. Yes they can beat some of the big schools (but they aren't the only small school that can do that,) but can they compete with the likes of Edina, Hill Murry or Duluth East and come out on top more times then not? Sorry, but no.

Zamboni, that fact (about Warroad's titles in Class A vs the one-class system) wasn't lost on me. One could claim that Warroad would have a better chance in Class AA than they did in the one-class system because there were less teams, but I don't think the top end of those Class AA teams was diluted very much. But it does bring up a somewhat problematic question; how much easier is it to win Class AA because of some of the better Class A teams who could compete such as Breck and St Thomas? Would those Class A teams win 36% of the titles? My gut feeling says that I doubt it.

Meh. A lot to consider and a lot of questions which can be interpreted different ways depending on who you talk to. I'm taking subjective data (who won what) and applying a set of objective ideas to it. So it won't be perfect, not by any means. But it will create a lot of chatter once I start revealing the teams next week (or next month)

Lee

5th Line Center · Post by **5th Line Center** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:50 pm

GordonBombay99 wrote:
zamboni14 wrote:
codemanh wrote:The only problem I see so far is that I don't think that class 'A' should be less then half of 'AA'. Sure, teams can opt up but there is no way you can say Warroad is a lesser program because they don't opt up. We all know they could make the 'AA' tourney quite often, but it would come down to them and Roseau almost every year.
Moorhead might have a few things to say about Warroad making it to state if they played AA.

As much as people see Roseau and want to lump Warroad in with them (in terms of small school beating the big schools,) I think Warroad gets overrated in terms of "grandness" or legacy. How many titles does Roseau have while playing against the big schools? 7. How many does Warroad have? ZERO! All 4 of Warroad's titles have been playing in class A, and most of their state tournament births have been while playing in class A. Yes they can beat some of the big schools (but they aren't the only small school that can do that,) but can they compete with the likes of Edina, Hill Murry or Duluth East and come out on top more times then not? Sorry, but no.
It would make 8AA very loaded if Warroad opted up and it would easily be a 3 team race for state each year.

Okay, Roseau and Warroad will combine their teams. Good luck to anyone that thinks they can beat them! With their combined enrollment, they'd still likely be the smallest school in the AA tourney.

defense · Post by **defense** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:37 pm

I always have to throw in the fact that Roseau NEVER went to the class A tournement. Never won the 8a tournement.

HS Fan 4 Life · Post by **HS Fan 4 Life** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:51 pm

Roseau has clearly done the "most" with the "least". They have proven you don't need 3,000 kids in your school to win championships.

That said, I think it is no contest. Edina hands down. 10 titles coming in 5 different decades. Add a record 7 consolation titles and they have accumulated the most hardware of any school.

GordonBombay99 · Post by **GordonBombay99** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:26 pm

HS Fan 4 Life wrote:Roseau has clearly done the "most" with the "least". They have proven you don't need 3,000 kids in your school to win championships.

That said, I think it is no contest. Edina hands down. 10 titles coming in 5 different decades. Add a record 7 consolation titles and they have accumulated the most hardware of any school.

Roseau and Warroad both prove that great. They have always done amazing with the amount of people in the town.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:30 pm

Rochester H.S. became John Marshall in 1958, Mayo opened in 1966 or 67.

Karl, I disagree, I think the tournament was much harder to get to in the 1 class days, the difference between 1-8 quarterfinal games was usually much less. We also have a situation where the same teams are making appearances year after year. Not since 1996 has anyone besides Roseau or Moorhead represented section 8, in the last 10 years of the 1 class Bemidji, Warroad, Roseau, and EGF all represented section 8. In the 10 years prior to splitting classes 5 different teams represented section 1, in the last 10 it's been 3. The changes in class structure also weakend section 1 terribly, in the last 10 years of a 1 class tournament section 1 went 0-2 twice, had 2 champions and 3 runners up and going back 15 years were probably the best section over that span. So I would argue even the state tournament has been weakend by the split pretty heavily.

The A tournament changes even less.

warriors41 · Post by **warriors41** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:38 pm

East, as someone who pretty much sticks to posting about class A hockey, because thats where my interests lie, you should just stick to rating the AA schools. There is no way to include A teams without offending A supporters by not counting them enough or making AA supporters laugh because you are giving them too much credit. Just leave them out and it will make it much simpler. I wouldn't be offended that way at least.

JS · Post by JS » Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:56 pm

If...one just went by a simple model with minimal variables, and no wieghting. Getting to state is worth a point, getting to the final is worth a point, and winning it that year is worth a point: (making it to state, getting to finals, winning it all, total points).

#1 Edina (32,14,10,56)
#2 Roseau (33, 12, 7,52)
#3 Hill Murray ( 24,9,5*,38*)
#4T International Falls (19,9,7,35)
#4T Warroad (21*,10*,4*,35*)
#6 St. Paul Johnson ( 21,7,4,32)
#7 Evelth-Gilbert (15,9,7,31)
#8 South St.Paul (28,2,0,30)
#9T Duluth East (17,6,3,26)
#9T Bloomington Jefferson (16,5,5,26)

zamboni14 · Post by **zamboni14** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:05 am

warriors41 wrote:East, as someone who pretty much sticks to posting about class A hockey, because thats where my interests lie, you should just stick to rating the AA schools. There is no way to include A teams without offending A supporters by not counting them enough or making AA supporters laugh because you are giving them too much credit. Just leave them out and it will make it much simpler. I wouldn't be offended that way at least.

you can't leave out the A schools though. They have become a fixture as much as AA schools. Without the A schools playing, we wouldn't have seen some of these kids before they leave for various colleges. As much as some of us (myself included) complain about teams like STA or Breck being in A (and not AA) we still love to see kids like Wheeler and Schroeder stand out among the other players and dominate.

Even if you were to take out the "A" schools, there will be people that will complain about X being above Y team.

warriors41 · Post by **warriors41** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:05 am

zamboni14 wrote:
warriors41 wrote:East, as someone who pretty much sticks to posting about class A hockey, because thats where my interests lie, you should just stick to rating the AA schools. There is no way to include A teams without offending A supporters by not counting them enough or making AA supporters laugh because you are giving them too much credit. Just leave them out and it will make it much simpler. I wouldn't be offended that way at least.
you can't leave out the A schools though. They have become a fixture as much as AA schools. Without the A schools playing, we wouldn't have seen some of these kids before they leave for various colleges. As much as some of us (myself included) complain about teams like STA or Breck being in A (and not AA) we still love to see kids like Wheeler and Schroeder stand out among the other players and dominate.

Even if you were to take out the "A" schools, there will be people that will complain about X being above Y team.

I'm in absolute agreement with you. It drives me up a wall when people refer to the class A tourny as the JV tournament or something to that extent. It has produced some of the best talent to come out of the state since the two class system. I don't think people should just discredit it like some seem to do. I'm just saying for ranking programs sake it would be easier for east to just do AA. I'm probably one of the few that watches more A games than AA comes tournament time but I'll still admit that it is tougher to win the AA tournament.

The problem lies with how much weight to give A programs for winning their state tournament against a AA school for winning theirs. And just like any other problem, this one is best solved by ignoring it and leaving A teams out of the rankings.

zamboni14 · Post by **zamboni14** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:42 am

warriors41 wrote:
zamboni14 wrote:
warriors41 wrote:East, as someone who pretty much sticks to posting about class A hockey, because thats where my interests lie, you should just stick to rating the AA schools. There is no way to include A teams without offending A supporters by not counting them enough or making AA supporters laugh because you are giving them too much credit. Just leave them out and it will make it much simpler. I wouldn't be offended that way at least.
you can't leave out the A schools though. They have become a fixture as much as AA schools. Without the A schools playing, we wouldn't have seen some of these kids before they leave for various colleges. As much as some of us (myself included) complain about teams like STA or Breck being in A (and not AA) we still love to see kids like Wheeler and Schroeder stand out among the other players and dominate.

Even if you were to take out the "A" schools, there will be people that will complain about X being above Y team.
I'm in absolute agreement with you. It drives me up a wall when people refer to the class A tourny as the JV tournament or something to that extent. It has produced some of the best talent to come out of the state since the two class system. I don't think people should just discredit it like some seem to do. I'm just saying for ranking programs sake it would be easier for east to just do AA. I'm probably one of the few that watches more A games than AA comes tournament time but I'll still admit that it is tougher to win the AA tournament.

The problem lies with how much weight to give A programs for winning their state tournament against a AA school for winning theirs. And just like any other problem, this one is best solved by ignoring it and leaving A teams out of the rankings.

I agree that it's hard to figure out how much you weigh A vs AA, and the problem is that you'd like to give A teams just as much credit, but the teams that get "the most" credit then is your schools like STA and Breck and not Red Wing, Hermantown, Eveleth, I-Falls, etc. who are the REAL class A teams (successful smaller programs)

StayAtHomeD · Post by **StayAtHomeD** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:27 am

Roseau and Hill Murray.

Post by **east hockey** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:11 pm

goldy313 wrote:Rochester H.S. became John Marshall in 1958, Mayo opened in 1966 or 67.

Karl, I disagree, I think the tournament was much harder to get to in the 1 class days, the difference between 1-8 quarterfinal games was usually much less. We also have a situation where the same teams are making appearances year after year. Not since 1996 has anyone besides Roseau or Moorhead represented section 8, in the last 10 years of the 1 class Bemidji, Warroad, Roseau, and EGF all represented section 8. In the 10 years prior to splitting classes 5 different teams represented section 1, in the last 10 it's been 3. The changes in class structure also weakend section 1 terribly, in the last 10 years of a 1 class tournament section 1 went 0-2 twice, had 2 champions and 3 runners up and going back 15 years were probably the best section over that span. So I would argue even the state tournament has been weakend by the split pretty heavily.

The A tournament changes even less.

Goldy, I think what you say has some merit, after doing some additional thinking about it. As for the same teams representing the same sections over and over, I think open enrollment has a lot to do with that as well, as it came into being just a couple years prior to the splitting of the classes. It's led to the rich getting richer, to a certain extent.

It may be appropriate to give some additional weight to what teams did between 1975-93 (The tier system in 1992-93 still meant the eight best teams in each section got to fight it out for the right to go to State), as opposed to what teams have done since. Doing that would have some interesting and predictable movements in teams historical point values.
How much more weight to give, I don't know yet.

Lee

Post by **karl(east)** » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:03 pm

If we use the end of the Tier 1 tourney as the cutoff and look ten years before and after that point, we find that 34 different teams made the tourney from 84-93, and 31 from 94-03. So that suggests it was perhaps a bit harder to make the tourney before the split, but not conclusively so.

Of course, there might be other factors at play here. Both Duluth East and Moorhead--two of the most frequent state tourney visitors since the 2-class split, arose at about the time of the split. But it's hard to argue that their dominance was caused by the split--both programs' success at state proves they deserved to be there, and probably just got their programs going at the right time.

Looking at the metro, I don't really see anything suggesting the state tourney got more predictable. In pretty much the every section, it's the same cast of characters before and after the split.
-The north metro section (2 or 4) had a bunch of scattered teams winning, none of which did much at state until the late 90s/early 00s.
-Section 3 was WBL or Hill, pretty much every year, before and after.
-Section 2/4 (St. Paul schools/Hastings/Apple Valley) had more or less the same list of contenders, and the same results once they got to state.
-Section 5 actually got a little more competitive thanks to the end of the Jefferson dynasty.
-Section 6 is the same general cast, though Edina became more dominant--but the teams that had been winning with them through the late 80s were all still AA programs. Maybe open enrollment or some internal resurgence is a better explanation.

In the north, it's possible that I-Falls and Eveleth could have upset one of those East teams, and perhaps more likely that Warroad could have stolen a title or two from Moorhead and Roseau. The best argument for the 2-class split weakening the sections can probably be made in the north, especially back in the 90s when northern teams won the A tourney pretty much every year. But even so, I don't think the evidence is overwhelming, especially in Section 7.

Section 1 did get whacked, but that may have more to do with the realignment than anything. Most of the damage that Section 1 did at state in the 80s was thanks to Burnsville, which won the section 7 out of 9 times before the 1991 realignment and the start of the 2-tier tourney. The other team that did things at state, John Marshall, seemed to drop off (not sure why on that one).

Section strength is such an important factor, but we really lack any way of judging that.