Is Rochester Red the 12th team in the D9 Peewee A playoffs?

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Are you kidding me? I gave the coach's post an A+ rating! Love the statement "I don't claim my views are what's best ...", that is completely reversal of your total break-down of everyone's objections from your earlier posts. . .

While I appreciate the grade, I must say that I didn't say that "I don't claim my views are what's best"... I actually do "claim" that they are, but what I said was: "I don't claim to know my views are what's best and I can only hope the procedures allow for all opinions to be heard and that the present powers that be make the right decisions."

C'mon man... don't distort what I say and FORCE me out of retirement!!!

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Quasar,
I don't have a team in D9. Remember what's happening here. It is called ad hominem abuse or when one doesn't argue the facts they question the character of the person stating the facts (liar comes to mind). Another poster picks up the abuse and re-states it as fact.

Your are right. In my November blog I pointed out this could happen and have been following the events in D9 every week since the November posts. But I only followed it at the peewee A level.

Quasar - I have to echo Frederick61 and point out that I have seen him post for two years and I don't think he has a dog in the fight.

That being said, Frederick, while I haven't called you a "liar", I do think you're smart enough to know that you've been proven wrong here. (Mnhockeys look what you've done!... I was going to stay away!!! grrrr.)

[Quasar]

CHC,

If by being wrong, you mean that District 9 used the rules and their influence
starting a new District to placate Rochester, Then I agree.

By the letter of the law, and interpretation thereof, Fredrick could be wrong.

But...If the question is .. That a team should play with their peers in the district to qualify for a seeding in the district playoffs.

Then you will have to admit ...He is right.. So far Minnesota hockey has resisted the formation of a tier 1 level (Which I personally would like to see them do) But until they do.. There should be no special deals because it was the easy thing to do. We have all been present when the 4 loudest guys in the room put the steamroller into gear... It might be legal....But..It ain't right!!

[Quasar]

And with that... I'll bow out of the trials and tribulations of District nine.
And.. unlike the Coach, I won't be back on this thread..

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

CHC,

If by being wrong, you mean that District 9 used the rules and their influence
starting a new District to placate Rochester, Then I agree.

By the letter of the law, and interpretation thereof, Fredrick could be wrong.

But...If the question is .. That a team should play with their peers in the district to qualify for a seeding in the district playoffs.

Then you will have to admit ...He is right.. So far Minnesota hockey has resisted the formation of a tier 1 level (Which I personally would like to see them do) But until they do.. There should be no special deals because it was the easy thing to do. We have all been present when the 4 loudest guys in the room put the steamroller into gear... It might be legal....But..It ain't right!!

You make alot of assumptions. First, you assume that D9 placated Rochester, second, you assume that some loudmouths bullied D9 into allowing Rochester Red to have an Independent schedule and still play in districts, lastly, you assume that forcing a team to play teams not in its caliber is "right", whereas allowing Rochester to field two teams of the district's teams' caliber is "wrong".

It wasn't "right" or "wrong" in the moral sense you allude to, it was "smart".

AND if people stop addressing me and distorting my views - I too will be out of this post forever more....

[Ugottobekiddingme]

CHC...identity established...you are Brett Favre. How's it looking for next year?

[MrBoDangles]

The Rochester Red exemption for league play was discussed, at length, at several initial board meetings of District 9. The District Director sought the advice and council of the board and executive committee and made his decision based on the support of those bodies. It is the district directors sole authority to rule of matters such as these, however, our director often seeks our council and opinion from the board before he makes rulings. He has done an outstanding job this season on several difficult matters.

I don't know if it was put into a written declaration, hand delivered and nailed to the door of Rochester Youth Hockey. But I do know it is in the minutes of our exec comm meetings.

I also know that every affiliate representative was well aware of this exemption before the start of the season. After that it is up to the affiliate representative to communicate that with their associations.

Dave Swenson

Lesson to everyone, communication and documenting with details would eliminate a LOT of speculation, rumors and distrust. Probably been wise to post on website and/or in meeting minutes with some details on the process/discussions when the decision was reached.

Nailed it!
It probably would of been more documented if it wasn't meant to be under most folks radar......

[hocmom]

Yeah, post it on the district website. Everyone knows everyone reads the district website.

[Ugottobekiddingme]

Since we're discussing District 10, could you imagine if Champlin Park or Anoka played an independent schedule and then was allowed to play in the District 10 playoffs? I am certain that teams like Irondale would cry foul. While this exception may have been passed by the District 9 board with the best of intentions, it creates the opportunity for fraud, favoritism and improvidence, which is not a good thing. Rochester Red was given an unearned advantage over other teams in the District. I believe in a system based on meritocracy, which does not include giving a team a special pass to the District playoffs, even if you believe in good faith that the team would have been one of the top teams in the District had they played a league schedule. The fact is we will never know because they did not play a league schedule, which means they are not part of the league, which, in turn, means they should not be allowed to play in the league (District) playoffs.

 This vote by the District board was not in the best interests of all the young athletes in the District, nor is it fair to the rest of the teams and the young players on those teams who earned their respective league play wins to qualify for the District playoffs. It's kind of like allowing a kid to show up for school on the last week of his senior year and compete for the right to be called class valedictorian based on one set of final exams.

I coached in D10 this year and there did not want my team to play 11 of the 15 games that were scheduled because my team would not be challenged, if we were allowed to play an independent schedule we would have developed much better players. I can only applaud the Rochester board and A Bantam/Peewee Red coaching staffs for pushing for this option down there. Yes they should be allowed to compete to be the bests team in the state and D9 said at the beginning for the year, d9 would be the place for them to start. No team gets anything out of beating a team 10-0 and no team that gets beat 10-0 gets anything out of it!

We should also consider this little bombshell of a post towards good communications and details...why the interest from D10 coaches towards the good people of Rochester?...and again now we have pee wee aged players stuck in the middle. The radar is pinging...

[hockey_is_a_choice]

Interesting post--and claims--Mn_Hcky_Coach. By a process of elimination, Minnesota Hockey Coach, if you really did coach in District 10 and played a 15-game league schedule, that means you coached a B1 Bantam team (B1 Bantams are the only level in District 10 who played a 15-game league schedule).  Revealingly, among the top six Bantam B1 teams in District 10, there was only a ten-point spread between the first seed and the sixth seed, which means the schedule was competitive. Your claim that only four of the 15 games your team played in District 10 league play were worthwhile isn't supported by the statistics.  Further, your claim that your players would have become better players had they been allowed to play an independent schedule is nonsense. If your players were better players they should have played Bantam A this year. Moreover, if you--their coach--wanted to challenge them you could have set up numerous scrimmages with the likes of the top Bantam B1 teams from Osseo Maple Grove, Edina, Wayzata, Eden Prairie etc.  The fact of the matter is that at the Peewee and the Bantam levels there is nothing stopping you from playing the top rated teams in the state. All you have to do is pick up the phone or send an e-mail and offer to set up a scrimmage.  Whether the top teams think your team will offer a competitive game is another matter all together.

[Expressor16]

Dave,
I appreciate the answer and would ask one more. Was there every any discussion with D4 on their extra seed?

Yes, at the Spring MH meetings.

[Ugottobekiddingme]

MN_Hcky_Coach wrote:
Hocmom,

You're community is lucky to have someone who gave their time to make it better, it is too bad some people think you're time was too much. You have set a great example for your kids, giving back to the community is the most under rated thing a person can do, but as you know, very rewarding.

Interesting connection here as well...not making any claims...just interesting as it relates to two programs not related in any way. A D10 coach and 9 year board member involved with D9 affairs.

[silentbutdeadly3139]

Yeah, post it on the district website. Everyone knows everyone reads the district website.

Didn't you to get the minutes of the board early in this thread ? If nothing else its CYA.

[frederick61]

Tonight, the Rochester Gold beat Red Wing 5-2 in a D9 playoff game. That means the Rochester Red will play the Rochester Gold in the first of two games the Red will need to win to assure themselves a seed in the regional playoff.

To put it another way, the top 17 peewee players in the Rochester program (the Red team) will be playing the Rochester Gold, a team that is comprised of 50% of the next 34 Rochester peewee players.

This is the result of fair policies put in place by D9 and Rochester. Those policies were based on the assumption that the Red would somehow be less competitive playing a D9 schedule and beating D9 teams 10-0. The D9 and Rochester adults made this judgment long before any kids tried out for any team and associations had decided on the level of teams they would field.

How should the adults in Rochester handle this game? They can’t allow the Red team to become less competitive by beating up the Gold team?
I know. Why don’t they phone in a score, a nice one like 6-2 so nobody will feel hurt? They could save the cost of two hours of ice and the referees plus gas.

[Expressor16]

Tonight, the Rochester Gold beat Red Wing 5-2 in a D9 playoff game. That means the Rochester Red will play the Rochester Gold in the first of two games the Red will need to win to assure themselves a seed in the regional playoff.

To put it another way, the top 17 peewee players in the Rochester program (the Red team) will be playing the Rochester Gold, a team that is comprised of 50% of the next 34 Rochester peewee players.

This is the result of fair policies put in place by D9 and Rochester. Those policies were based on the assumption that the Red would somehow be less competitive playing a D9 schedule and beating D9 teams 10-0. The D9 and Rochester adults made this judgment long before any kids tried out for any team and associations had decided on the level of teams they would field.

How should the adults in Rochester handle this game? They can’t allow the Red team to become less competitive by beating up the Gold team?
I know. Why don’t they phone in a score, a nice one like 6-2 so nobody will feel hurt? They could save the cost of two hours of ice and the referees plus gas.

And Owatonna may meet the Red team. The 15 best PeeWee players from a town of 25k playing the best 17 PeeWees from a city of over 100k. It may be a helluva game. Owatonna will compete. If the Gold team looses, they will have the opportunity to play back in, like any other quarterfinal or semifinal losing team.

Good luck to everyone.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Tonight, the Rochester Gold beat Red Wing 5-2 in a D9 playoff game. That means the Rochester Red will play the Rochester Gold in the first of two games the Red will need to win to assure themselves a seed in the regional playoff.

To put it another way, the top 17 peewee players in the Rochester program (the Red team) will be playing the Rochester Gold, a team that is comprised of 50% of the next 34 Rochester peewee players.

This is the result of fair policies put in place by D9 and Rochester. Those policies were based on the assumption that the Red would somehow be less competitive playing a D9 schedule and beating D9 teams 10-0. The D9 and Rochester adults made this judgment long before any kids tried out for any team and associations had decided on the level of teams they would field.

How should the adults in Rochester handle this game? They can’t allow the Red team to become less competitive by beating up the Gold team?
I know. Why don’t they phone in a score, a nice one like 6-2 so nobody will feel hurt? They could save the cost of two hours of ice and the referees plus gas.

Congratulations to Rochester Gold. Earlier in the season you lost to Red Wing 8-10, then you beat them 8-4 later during the year, and now you beat Red Wing 5-2.

I also saw that Gold lost to Mankato 0-12 in earlier in the year and within the past month or so they lost 2-5.

Looks like the players on Gold make huge strides playing at the PeeWee A level... rather than playing B1 and dominating.

Frederick seems to focus on the fact that Gold will probably lose to Red... and probably by more than a few goals.

Here's a hunch that both Gold and Black players and parents would cite their development and say they had a good year, despite not making the regionals (like 75% of PeeWee A teams).

Black lost to Red Wing twice early in the year and beat them recently 3-0.

I hope D9 takes the development of Gold and Black into consideration.

Now watch, Freddie and MNhockeys will say that not playing Red twice is the reason Red Wing didn't develop...

We'll see.

Looks like

[Expressor16]

Tonight, the Rochester Gold beat Red Wing 5-2 in a D9 playoff game. That means the Rochester Red will play the Rochester Gold in the first of two games the Red will need to win to assure themselves a seed in the regional playoff.

To put it another way, the top 17 peewee players in the Rochester program (the Red team) will be playing the Rochester Gold, a team that is comprised of 50% of the next 34 Rochester peewee players.

This is the result of fair policies put in place by D9 and Rochester. Those policies were based on the assumption that the Red would somehow be less competitive playing a D9 schedule and beating D9 teams 10-0. The D9 and Rochester adults made this judgment long before any kids tried out for any team and associations had decided on the level of teams they would field.

How should the adults in Rochester handle this game? They can’t allow the Red team to become less competitive by beating up the Gold team?
I know. Why don’t they phone in a score, a nice one like 6-2 so nobody will feel hurt? They could save the cost of two hours of ice and the referees plus gas.

Congratulations to Rochester Gold. Earlier in the season you lost to Red Wing 8-10, then you beat them 8-4 later during the year, and now you beat Red Wing 5-2.

I also saw that Gold lost to Mankato 0-12 in earlier in the year and within the past month or so they lost 2-5.

Looks like the players on Gold make huge strides playing at the PeeWee A level... rather than playing B1 and dominating.

Frederick seems to focus on the fact that Gold will probably lose to Red... and probably by more than a few goals.

Here's a hunch that both Gold and Black players and parents would cite their development and say they had a good year, despite not making the regionals (like 75% of PeeWee A teams).

Black lost to Red Wing twice early in the year and beat them recently 3-0.

I hope D9 takes the development of Gold and Black into consideration.

Now watch, Freddie and MNhockeys will say that not playing Red twice is the reason Red Wing didn't develop...

We'll see.

Looks like

Nice point you make CHC. Not much is said on how the kids get better during the season, no matter who they play, or the score. If they have dedicated coaches who run good practices with good attitudes, the players bond and make improvement as the season wears on. Life is full of those who are better at something or not as good at something. The sooner kids realize that the more they mature and continue on their journey to becoming adults who will enter the world with a good perspective.

[frederick61]

Isn't it the D9 policy this year that teams who beat up teams should not have to play those teams except when they want to get into the regionals so they can play teams worthy of competition?

You celebrate the improvement of teams like the Gold but do not acknowledge that can happen to other D9 associations by playing the Rochester Red.

[InigoMontoya]

Isn't it the D9 policy this year that teams who beat up teams should not have to play those teams except when they want to get into the regionals so they can play teams worthy of competition?

You celebrate the improvement of teams like the Gold but do not acknowledge that can happen to other D9 associations by playing the Rochester Red.

That's a good point. A 12-0 game may have led someone to believe that Mankato was too good for D9 or that Rochester Gold wasn't good enough, and there never would have been a 5-2 game. If sports is only about the best ONLY playing the best, then it's time to apply the AA and A levels of youth hockey.

It is a sport, and as such, barring a tie or a rainout, one team will likely lose while the other wins. It is tiring to hear parents, coaches, and administrators continue to impress the rest of us regarding how terrible it is for their obviously superior children, superior teams, and superior programs to have to stoop to a smaller programs level - what a waste of time it is. If it is that much of an inconvenience for the super associations, then maybe we should let them have their little AA club, so they can exclude the rest of us from it. Personally, I'm finding it a little hard to believe that Rochester Red couldn't have worked a dozen or so games into their schedule to play the associations that are close to them geographically and still managed to play 30 games or so against teams that were worthy to play them.

[Mnhockeys]

Tonight, the Rochester Gold beat Red Wing 5-2 in a D9 playoff game. That means the Rochester Red will play the Rochester Gold in the first of two games the Red will need to win to assure themselves a seed in the regional playoff.

To put it another way, the top 17 peewee players in the Rochester program (the Red team) will be playing the Rochester Gold, a team that is comprised of 50% of the next 34 Rochester peewee players.

This is the result of fair policies put in place by D9 and Rochester. Those policies were based on the assumption that the Red would somehow be less competitive playing a D9 schedule and beating D9 teams 10-0. The D9 and Rochester adults made this judgment long before any kids tried out for any team and associations had decided on the level of teams they would field.

How should the adults in Rochester handle this game? They can’t allow the Red team to become less competitive by beating up the Gold team?
I know. Why don’t they phone in a score, a nice one like 6-2 so nobody will feel hurt? They could save the cost of two hours of ice and the referees plus gas.

Congratulations to Rochester Gold. Earlier in the season you lost to Red Wing 8-10, then you beat them 8-4 later during the year, and now you beat Red Wing 5-2.

I also saw that Gold lost to Mankato 0-12 in earlier in the year and within the past month or so they lost 2-5.

Looks like the players on Gold make huge strides playing at the PeeWee A level... rather than playing B1 and dominating.

Frederick seems to focus on the fact that Gold will probably lose to Red... and probably by more than a few goals.

Here's a hunch that both Gold and Black players and parents would cite their development and say they had a good year, despite not making the regionals (like 75% of PeeWee A teams).

Black lost to Red Wing twice early in the year and beat them recently 3-0.

I hope D9 takes the development of Gold and Black into consideration.

Now watch, Freddie and MNhockeys will say that not playing Red twice is the reason Red Wing didn't develop...

We'll see.

Looks like

Geez C HC, thought giving you a A rating would encourage you stay in retirement, instead you came back strong.

Would stay off the topics now, since felt this discussion would end in NOWHERE.

For those argue for Roch Red, most of the time you cannot accept there are issues with the whole deal. If it is as perfect as you described, people would not be so upset.

For those against it, some compromise had to be made, which does create a question of fairness.

[Concerned Hockey Coach]

Isn't it the D9 policy this year that teams who beat up teams should not have to play those teams except when they want to get into the regionals so they can play teams worthy of competition?

You celebrate the improvement of teams like the Gold but do not acknowledge that can happen to other D9 associations by playing the Rochester Red.

That's a good point. A 12-0 game may have led someone to believe that Mankato was too good for D9 or that Rochester Gold wasn't good enough, and there never would have been a 5-2 game. If sports is only about the best ONLY playing the best, then it's time to apply the AA and A levels of youth hockey.

It is a sport, and as such, barring a tie or a rainout, one team will likely lose while the other wins. It is tiring to hear parents, coaches, and administrators continue to impress the rest of us regarding how terrible it is for their obviously superior children, superior teams, and superior programs to have to stoop to a smaller programs level - what a waste of time it is. If it is that much of an inconvenience for the super associations, then maybe we should let them have their little AA club, so they can exclude the rest of us from it. Personally, I'm finding it a little hard to believe that Rochester Red couldn't have worked a dozen or so games into their schedule to play the associations that are close to them geographically and still managed to play 30 games or so against teams that were worthy to play them.

Inigo - you are a thoughtful person from you postings... I'm happy to have your thoughts here.

I completely agree that in all but the most extreme circumstances, a team should not opt out of district regular season play OR be allowed to opt out - and I don't think most refusals to allow an opt out will result in a new AAA league.

This case has me citing the extreme circumstances. Have you had a chance to check out the teams in D9? We're talking about B1 teams at best - other than Mankato and Owatonna, but Owatonna is down. I honestly don't think any team other than those two would help themselves (or Red) by playing them. I encourage you to go check it out... but in case you're looking for a few stats:

In order of current rank in their District divisions: (Myhockey Ranking and relevant losses)

Northfield (No. 76, losses to Johnson Como and Faribault)
Dodge County (No. 93, losses to Sibley and Crow River 0-11)
Rochester Bl. (No. 96, losses to Mound 0-4, Tartan 0-11)
Rochester G. (No. 95, losses to Centennial (0-12, Champlin 0-7, Rogers 0-9)
Austin (No. 101, losses to Orono 1-10, Crow River 0-10)
Red Wing (80's, losses to Orono 0-15, Shakopee 0-11)

Other division:

Mankato (No. 55, losses to Spring Lake 0-, Eastview 2-7)
Luverne (No. 66, losses to Como Johnson, Shakopee, FL)
Owatonna (No. 62, losses to Jefferson 0-5, Lakeville S. 3-10)
New Ulm (No. 91, losses to St. Louis Park, Bl. Kennedy)
Albert Lea (No. 99, losses to Centennial 1-15, Champlin 0-11)
Faribault (No. 97, losses to Tartan 0-8, Johnson Como 0-6)

Now, Myhockey Rankings aren't the be all end all, but they are as good as you can get in my experience seeing teams play this year. The scores don't lie.

[MrBoDangles]

Isn't it the D9 policy this year that teams who beat up teams should not have to play those teams except when they want to get into the regionals so they can play teams worthy of competition?

You celebrate the improvement of teams like the Gold but do not acknowledge that can happen to other D9 associations by playing the Rochester Red.

That's a good point. A 12-0 game may have led someone to believe that Mankato was too good for D9 or that Rochester Gold wasn't good enough, and there never would have been a 5-2 game. If sports is only about the best ONLY playing the best, then it's time to apply the AA and A levels of youth hockey.

It is a sport, and as such, barring a tie or a rainout, one team will likely lose while the other wins. It is tiring to hear parents, coaches, and administrators continue to impress the rest of us regarding how terrible it is for their obviously superior children, superior teams, and superior programs to have to stoop to a smaller programs level - what a waste of time it is. If it is that much of an inconvenience for the super associations, then maybe we should let them have their little AA club, so they can exclude the rest of us from it. Personally, I'm finding it a little hard to believe that Rochester Red couldn't have worked a dozen or so games into their schedule to play the associations that are close to them geographically and still managed to play 30 games or so against teams that were worthy to play them.

Inigo - you are a thoughtful person from you postings... I'm happy to have your thoughts here.

I completely agree that in all but the most extreme circumstances, a team should not opt out of district regular season play OR be allowed to opt out - and I don't think most refusals to allow an opt out will result in a new AAA league.

This case has me citing the extreme circumstances. Have you had a chance to check out the teams in D9? We're talking about B1 teams at best - other than Mankato and Owatonna, but Owatonna is down. I honestly don't think any team other than those two would help themselves (or Red) by playing them. I encourage you to go check it out... but in case you're looking for a few stats:

In order of current rank in their District divisions: (Myhockey Ranking and relevant losses)

Northfield (No. 76, losses to Johnson Como and Faribault)
Dodge County (No. 93, losses to Sibley and Crow River 0-11)
Rochester Bl. (No. 96, losses to Mound 0-4, Tartan 0-11)
Rochester G. (No. 95, losses to Centennial (0-12, Champlin 0-7, Rogers 0-9)
Austin (No. 101, losses to Orono 1-10, Crow River 0-10)
Red Wing (80's, losses to Orono 0-15, Shakopee 0-11)

Other division:

Mankato (No. 55, losses to Spring Lake 0-, Eastview 2-7)
Luverne (No. 66, losses to Como Johnson, Shakopee, FL)
Owatonna (No. 62, losses to Jefferson 0-5, Lakeville S. 3-10)
New Ulm (No. 91, losses to St. Louis Park, Bl. Kennedy)
Albert Lea (No. 99, losses to Centennial 1-15, Champlin 0-11)
Faribault (No. 97, losses to Tartan 0-8, Johnson Como 0-6)

Now, Myhockey Rankings aren't the be all end all, but they are as good as you can get in my experience seeing teams play this year. The scores don't lie.

Inigo, I think he'll lick your boots ........ If you let him

[hocmom]

MN_Hcky_Coach wrote:
Hocmom,

You're community is lucky to have someone who gave their time to make it better, it is too bad some people think you're time was too much. You have set a great example for your kids, giving back to the community is the most under rated thing a person can do, but as you know, very rewarding.

Interesting connection here as well...not making any claims...just interesting as it relates to two programs not related in any way. A D10 coach and 9 year board member involved with D9 affairs.

Huh? My kids do play in d9. I was interested in the other thread and commented there. What are you getting at?

[hocmom]

For those argue for Roch Red, most of the time you cannot accept there are issues with the whole deal. If it is as perfect as you described, people would not be so upset.

I don't think anyone claiming to be from D9 has come forward here and cried foul. As near as I can tell it is people from outside. Unless Fred is....

Question - What about next year? Personally, I hope they do the same thing again. Now no one can claim to not know...right? Will it still be a conspiracy? If all involved are on board, will it be OK with you nay sayers?

[observer]

It's been suggested that next year they play 1/2 schedule or at least the 3-4-5 teams that would like to play them. Their results are pro-rated in the standings and they're seeded in the PeeWee A and Bantam A District 9 tournament based on their pro-rated seeding with approval by the other members of D9.

There's an interesting dynamic for the teams that step up and schedule RR. It changes their week of practice as they prepare for the "big game." Frankly, it can change their whole season as they've now committed to playing in the "big leagues." That's how you help the other members of your District. You've set the bar now urge the others to come along.

The other interesting discussion to come out of this is, should the lower level teams in D9 even have A teams? That's a big question. I think yes. Each association needs to work on recruiting and attract 30 new mite boys and 20 new mite girls for the 2011-2012 season. Don't accept defeat. Grow. Make sure your future is bright. More bodies bring more revenue, more and better volunteers and better teams in the future. It's the only solution. Schedule your non District games and tournaments carefully but try and keep a team at the A level.