Opting up?

[MNHockeyFan]

St. Thomas Academy considering move up

http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/news_article ... anchO7DiUr

[MnMade-4-Life]

will they, and should they are two different questions ...

[MNHockeyFan]

will they, and should they are two different questions ...

Yep, but the question is will they.

[PuckU126]

Nice article. It's good to see STA's AD is taking it into consideration. I hope they make the jump; it will make things more interesting in class AA.

[WHAFightingSaints]

My guess is that they would end up in Section 4AA, making Hill's quest for St. Paul a little more difficult then it's been lately

[keepyourheadup]

They likely should opt up...but...they better do some reloading..a glance at their stats shows the top four scorers far ahead of the rest of the team and they are all seniors. That first line would look nice at LS.

[PuckU126]

My guess is that they would end up in Section 4AA, making Hill's quest for St. Paul a little more difficult then it's been lately

Maybe... Location wise I was thinking they may get 3AA. IMO

[WHAFightingSaints]

My guess is that they would end up in Section 4AA, making Hill's quest for St. Paul a little more difficult then it's been lately

Maybe... Location wise I was thinking they may get 3AA. IMO

Wherever the MSHSL decides to put them is fine, as long as they push someone south to the 1AA out of 2AA or 3AA to strengthen that section.

[DubCHAGuy]

My guess is that they would end up in Section 4AA, making Hill's quest for St. Paul a little more difficult then it's been lately

Maybe... Location wise I was thinking they may get 3AA. IMO

Wherever the MSHSL decides to put them is fine, as long as they push someone south to the 1AA out of 2AA or 3AA to strengthen that section.

I agree, 3AA would probably be their new section. I would then think Burnsville, Apple Valley, Rosemount, Prior Lake or Hastings would be the most likely to be moved to 1AA, if anyone is moved south. As for the question, I voted no, I don't think they will opt up.

[High Flyer]

I wish the MSHSL would allow schools to "opt down". Just look at some of the schools who have to compete at AA.

Seems to me they should be looking at this also when looking at the opt up issue.

[hawkfan]

I wish the MSHSL would allow schools to "opt down". Just look at some of the schools who have to compete at AA.

Seems to me they should be looking at this also when looking at the opt up issue.

agreed

it may actually give some of those programs a 'chance to rebuild' with more kids interested in playing

how many kids want to play for a team that is 2-22 every year??

[Pioneerprideguy]

I wish the MSHSL would allow schools to "opt down". Just look at some of the schools who have to compete at AA.

Seems to me they should be looking at this also when looking at the opt up issue.

agreed

it may actually give some of those programs a 'chance to rebuild' with more kids interested in playing

how many kids want to play for a team that is 2-22 every year??

It's called the "tier system"....been tried...wasn't successful.

[hawkfan]

I wish the MSHSL would allow schools to "opt down". Just look at some of the schools who have to compete at AA.

Seems to me they should be looking at this also when looking at the opt up issue.

agreed

it may actually give some of those programs a 'chance to rebuild' with more kids interested in playing

how many kids want to play for a team that is 2-22 every year??

It's called the "tier system"....been tried...wasn't successful.

my understanding of the tier system is that it only seperated the teams come tournament time

" In 1992-93, the tournament was composed of Tier I and II teams. This two-year experiment sent the top teams from each of the eight sections to the Tier I portion of the tournament and the remaining teams conducted a playoff to determine who would be included in the Tier II tournament. "

[High Flyer]

I wish the MSHSL would allow schools to "opt down". Just look at some of the schools who have to compete at AA.

Seems to me they should be looking at this also when looking at the opt up issue.

agreed

it may actually give some of those programs a 'chance to rebuild' with more kids interested in playing

how many kids want to play for a team that is 2-22 every year??

It's called the "tier system"....been tried...wasn't successful.

can you expand on that, the "tier system?? not sure what this is/was

[DubCHAGuy]

agreed

it may actually give some of those programs a 'chance to rebuild' with more kids interested in playing

how many kids want to play for a team that is 2-22 every year??

It's called the "tier system"....been tried...wasn't successful.

can you expand on that, the "tier system?? not sure what this is/was

Basically set up like the 1 class system. Then when playoffs come around, the top 8 seeds played to go to the "Tier 1" state tournament, everyone else played to go to the "Tier 2" tournament. For example this year, say section 7 would look something like this (just throwing it out there, not trying to debate what actual seeds would be):

Tier 1:
1 Duluth East vs. 8 Elk River or I'Falls
4 Cloquet vs. 5 Duluth Marshall
2 Grand Rapids vs. 7 Hibbing
3 Virginia vs. 6 Duluth Central

Tier 2 would then have big schools like Elk River, Forest Lake, and Andover playing with Eveleth, Greenway, I'Falls, Silver Bay and so on.


In the current system, I'm not sure allowing "opt downs" would accomplish anything. There would there be no good criteria for allowing teams to do so. Also teams play in a conference regardless of being A or AA, and they can choose their non-conference games for the most part.

Take a team like Henry Sibley, for example, already plays all but 1 of their non-conference games against class A teams. Allowing them to "opt down" to 4A and play STA in the quarterfinals isn't much better than their fate of playing Eagan in the quarterfinals in 3AA.

[HShockeywatcher]

I wish the MSHSL would allow schools to "opt down". Just look at some of the schools who have to compete at AA.

Seems to me they should be looking at this also when looking at the opt up issue.

agreed

it may actually give some of those programs a 'chance to rebuild' with more kids interested in playing

how many kids want to play for a team that is 2-22 every year??

They are going 2-22 because they are either a) bad or b) playing good competition.

A school like Hermantown, for example, is a Class A team who plays a very competitive, but mostly Class A schedule. A school like St Thomas, for example, plays a very competitive schedule with competitive Class A teams and Class AA teams.

If you are a bad Class AA team, there is nothing stopping you from playing a schedule just like a bad Class A team. Heck, a mediocre Class AA team could adjust their schedule to not get many losses. If you realistically know you won't make state in your section, why not do this?


That all being said, I think they should keep 64 teams in the top class; one team opts up, one comes down. I don't agree with teams opting down in an enrollment based system.


As for St Thomas, I'm fine either way. I'd prefer to lose to Hill Murray twice and win a state title than lose to them three times, for example. I wouldn't mind a chance at a "real title" but if you they can win Schwan's and beat the Class AA champ, they can be the best team overall; I'm all for an enrollment based system. That all being said, with how competitive they are as a Class A team, opting up may attract better players, so maybe they could improve. I guess only time will tell; either way, I respect either decision.

[steelheader]

If you are a bad Class AA team, there is nothing stopping you from playing a schedule just like a bad Class A team. Heck, a mediocre Class AA team could adjust their schedule to not get many losses. If you realistically know you won't make state in your section, why not do this?]

Cambridge did this a few years ago and went 20-5 in the regular season, then lost 6-1 in the first section game against Duluth East. After that they upgraded their non-conference schedule, last year playing .500 in the regular season then playing East again in the first section game and lost...6-1.

Is one season better than the other? Probably not.

I think the system works as is.

[mn miracle man]

Maybe the AD is just saying this to get people off his back, with actually having no intentions of actually moving up.

[PuckU126]

Maybe the AD is just saying this to get people off his back, with actually having no intentions of actually moving up.

It's possible, but if they don't opt up; STA and their AD will be under more heat until they do so. I think it may happen.

[Pioneerprideguy]

I think if the alumni weighed in and were in favor of the move up, the school would be hard pressed to ignore it. I know if HM ever thought about playing down, the alumni would burn the school down!

[HShockeywatcher]

I think if the alumni weighed in and were in favor of the move up, the school would be hard pressed to ignore it. I know if HM ever thought about playing down, the alumni would burn the school down!

What you mean is "not playing up" which is a big difference.

I realized they were good, but I didn't realize Totino had 6 of the last 8, that's crazy. I've never heard any talks about them or anyone criticizing them for where they are.

That being said, I'm sure you are right.

[DubCHAGuy]

I think if the alumni weighed in and were in favor of the move up, the school would be hard pressed to ignore it. I know if HM ever thought about playing down, the alumni would burn the school down!

What you mean is "not playing up" which is a big difference.

I realized they were good, but I didn't realize Totino had 6 of the last 8, that's crazy. I've never heard any talks about them or anyone criticizing them for where they are.

That being said, I'm sure you are right.

Yeah PPG, be more politically correct. You don't want to offend anyone

That is interesting about Totino's football program. 6 out of 8 is impressive. I would think they don't take much criticism because there is really no standard of small schools being able to compete with big schools in football because it is more about numbers, and never really been done. HS hockey has a history of class A sized schools like I'falls, Rapids, Roseau, Warroad, South St. Paul, Hill-Murray and SPJohnson all being favorites even against the big suburban schools.

[HShockeywatcher]

I think if the alumni weighed in and were in favor of the move up, the school would be hard pressed to ignore it. I know if HM ever thought about playing down, the alumni would burn the school down!

What you mean is "not playing up" which is a big difference.

I realized they were good, but I didn't realize Totino had 6 of the last 8, that's crazy. I've never heard any talks about them or anyone criticizing them for where they are.

That being said, I'm sure you are right.

Yeah PPG, be more politically correct. You don't want to offend anyone

That is interesting about Totino's football program. 6 out of 8 is impressive. I would think they don't take much criticism because there is really no standard of small schools being able to compete with big schools in football because it is more about numbers, and never really been done. HS hockey has a history of class A sized schools like I'falls, Rapids, Roseau, Warroad, South St. Paul, Hill-Murray and SPJohnson all being favorites even against the big suburban schools.

It depends on how you look at it; is it schools in the smallest class being competitive with the biggest class or is it schools being competitive with schools one class above them?

Because of numbers, both are true for hockey, and if you the former sure Class A teams have never been competitive with AAAAA teams in football. But if you use the latter, it happens all the time. In football, many A teams could compete in AA, AA in AAA, etc, etc.

When it comes down to it, I believe it's an issue of economics. Look at the football or basketball classes; it's mostly the smaller classes that don't have hockey programs. If all teams with a basketball team had a hockey team, the majority of schools there's an issue with would still be in the 2nd biggest class. I doubt anyone would have issue with St Thomas being a AAA school in a 4-class system, dominating it or not (which they aren't now).

It's hard to say there isn't a history of it when it's tough to happen in a 10 game schedule. But if you use any other sport, there is a lot in recent years of lower lever teams competing with top teams or teams a class or two above.

Just another perspective.

[DubCHAGuy]

Ok i'll try to spell it out better. There is no real history in HS Football of teams from outside the top class playing playoff/state tournament games against teams in the largest class and not only having success, but being considered the teams to beat in many years.

In hockey, under the one-class system, 32 of the 47 state championships were won by teams that are now categorized as class A. Since the 2 class system started, 6 of 19 "AA" championships have been won by class "A" sized schools.

This is why hockey is different. Because it has been proven that small schools can compete with big schools. 58% of "big school" championships have been won by "small schools".

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, i'm just saying this is why people criticize hockey programs for not "opting up," but they don't in other sports.

[HShockeywatcher]

Ok i'll try to spell it out better. There is no real history in HS Football of teams from outside the top class playing playoff/state tournament games against teams in the largest class and not only having success, but being considered the teams to beat in many years.

In hockey, under the one-class system, 32 of the 47 state championships were won by teams that are now categorized as class A. Since the 2 class system started, 6 of 19 "AA" championships have been won by class "A" sized schools.

This is why hockey is different. Because it has been proven that small schools can compete with big schools. 58% of "big school" championships have been won by "small schools".

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, i'm just saying this is why people criticize hockey programs for not "opting up," but they don't in other sports.

I believe it's actually 7 of 19 (Holy Angels x2, Hill Murray x1, Roseau x2, East x2; can never remember if Cretin opted up or not). Either way, what you're saying supports what I'm saying. There's nothing to spell out. Everything you said was understood.

In a 5 class hockey system 3 of those "small schools" would be 2nd biggest class, and the other would be in the 3rd biggest class probably.

If you want to take it further, in a 5 class system, Eveleth, International Falls and Warroad are the only three programs that would not be 3A or 4A teams winning state Class A titles.

When you go on to state participants, the numbers are very similar. Sure, there are outliers, but when all is said and done, you don't have very many actually small schools making it far, you just have the smallest of the rest.

After all that I still wonder if it's the schools being able to compete with the class up, or the bottom class competing with the top class?

Again, yearly in recently years (with about the same consistency as hockey), there are teams and individuals in most other sports that could compete with the top teams in the state (and many either do during the season, or their times at state can be compared). But in a class system, you don't have the opportunity to play to see who's best.

Football's a tough example because of conference play and short schedules

The issue is economics; the smallest of schools don't have programs. In Texas for example, all sports have 5 classes. Some sports, that smaller programs wouldn't be able to fund, are only offered in the 4A and 5A schools.

Can some Class A schools play/compete in Class AA. For sure. Should they? That's up to you to decide.
Why is it enough to to it during the season in other sports and not in hockey? That's also up to you to decide.

The issue is one of economics and our schools. Instead of fixing the issue we go after the system instead. But hey, that's America for ya.