AA teams that opt up

[HShockeywatcher]

defense, I do not understand your comment. What monsters are you referring to?

At what point enrollment wise do you have to move up?

It's not just based on enrollment. If I have it right, the number of kids on paid lunch programs, also has an effect. I think Johnson high school is big enough enrollment wise, but the demographics allow them to opt down.

Yes, you are right. I believe a kid on free or reduced lunch counts as 4/10 of a kid. So 5 kids getting reduced lunch would count as 2 normal kids basically. I believe you are not opting down, I believe that's where you are placed and if you want to be where you would've been, you'd have to opt up.

[defense]

defense, I do not understand your comment. What monsters are you referring to?

At what point enrollment wise do you have to move up?

It's not just based on enrollment. If I have it right, the number of kids on paid lunch programs, also has an effect. I think Johnson high school is big enough enrollment wise, but the demographics allow them to opt down.

Yes, you are right. I believe a kid on free or reduced lunch counts as 4/10 of a kid. So 5 kids getting reduced lunch would count as 2 normal kids basically. I believe you are not opting down, I believe that's where you are placed and if you want to be where you would've been, you'd have to opt up.

Big schools

[TheClipper]

In any MN HS sport there are no criteria for opting downward, and schools cannot play below the level specified by their enrollment.

In the case of hockey and soccer there used to be a numerical differentiator between class A and AA. I believe it was +/- 980 students total in grades 9-12. Technically they've gone away from this criteria and now they call the largest 90 schools (in both sports) class AA, and all the rest are considered A.

The MSHSL website has loads of info on this subject.

P.S. the enrollments of same sex schools, like STA or Visitation, are doubled for purposes of classification.

[TheClipper]

What criteria could you possibly use to "force" a team to move up?

What criteria, then, would you use to force a team to move down?

Sorry, folks. No legitimate entity will ever force an A hockey program to move up to AA.

[The X]

Let me make a deal with some of you:

For those of you wishing to put all private schools in a separate tourney. Or, for those of you who want all private schools classified as AA, you have my support. But only if the Class A Championship Trophy, or All Public School Trophy bears this inscription.....



........................"The Best Of What Was Left".

Actually, on the trophy they should write "true champion" all teams that chose to play with the athletes in their community and not a 'AAA" handpicked team. In the 60's and early 70's these teams were not allowed in the public school tourney, this was before all the politics crept into the MSHL. Shattuck is the only private program that understands and truly knows their place in Mn. hockey.

[goldy313]

What criteria could you possibly use to "force" a team to move up?

What criteria, then, would you use to force a team to move down?

Sorry, folks. No legitimate entity will ever force an A hockey program to move up to AA.

What are you talking about? Go tell that to Dodge County who has to play AA because they need kids from 6 schools to field a team while 15 miles away Lourdes gets to draw from 3 AA schools + Stewartville and gets to stay in A. Or Becker or River Lakes who also need multiple schools to field a team yet St. Thomas, Blake, and Breck get to pull kids from all over the metro but get to stay in A.

[HShockeywatcher]

What criteria could you possibly use to "force" a team to move up?

What criteria, then, would you use to force a team to move down?

Sorry, folks. No legitimate entity will ever force an A hockey program to move up to AA.

What are you talking about? Go tell that to Dodge County who has to play AA because they need kids from 6 schools to field a team while 15 miles away Lourdes gets to draw from 3 AA schools + Stewartville and gets to stay in A. Or Becker or River Lakes who also need multiple schools to field a team yet St. Thomas, Blake, and Breck get to pull kids from all over the metro but get to stay in A.

I think the very legitimate part of your post is that co-ops (imo) should not be put in AA. Look at Minneapolis; using 7 city schools to field a team and they are placed in the most loaded section in the state.
The kicker: Lourdes is a co-op

The private school thing is not/should not be brought up in here, again imo. The discussion never goes anywhere and I don't know that it would be productive here.

[goldy313]

It's not just privates, it's an argument in nearly every sport.

Why co-ops are counted they way they are falls directly on wrestling, Blue Earth in particular. Now it's Kasson Mantorville who last spring was found guilty by the MSHSL of recruiting, one of the penalties proposed would have been to force them up a class. Jackson County is another one, yet like Kasson are public. It becomes an issue when you pull kids from a large area then play the poor me we just do what the MSHSL tells us too. They want it both ways, which is allowed but hurts the integrety of the sport.

[Northfan99]

every private school should HAVE TO opt up. end of story

agreed

[TheClipper]

Goldy313,

Here's what I'm talking about. This thread began with a question as to whether succesful private school "powerhouses" should be forced to opt up to AA classification (note to admin: this question is poorly worded, as "forced' and "opt" are contradictory terms). I say no.

The MSHSL assigns classification in 46 sports and activities to 490 member schools. The only valid, rational criteria for classification is enrollment. The MSHSL is not in the business of subjectively rating a school's programs or teams. Neither does, or should, the MSHSL give a hoot about a school's feeder programs or potential recruiting base. They classify schools based on enrollment, and have done so for many, many years.

Forcing successful small programs to opt up would often be the same as punishing them for success. This is nuts. It's also, arbitrary, petty, vindictive, and almost certainly illegal. No one, not me, you, or whomever, will ever define "success" or "powerhouse" let alone act on these words.

As to your frustrations regarding the contrasts between the Dodge County Coop and Lourdes HS class assignments: a quick check reveals the total enrollment of the six coop schools to be 2244 students. Lourdes boasts 460 students. Now, tell me, why shouldn't a program five times larger than another be in a different class? Please, spare me your nonsense about recruiting. To play for a school you must be enrolled in that school. Those enrollments again: Coop= 2244, Lourdes =460.

(By the way, at 2244 students Dodge County Coop is far larger than Duluth East (1396), and about the same size as Edina (2300)

Why take issue with the way Coops are classified? The schools involved wanted to form a hockey program, and knew full well what they were getting into.

Now, what is it you're talking about?

[HShockeywatcher]

TheClipper, I agree with you 100% until your last long paragraph on the co-ops. Co-ops don't occur with the ADs of successful programs like Tonka, EP and Edina calling each other up and saying, "hey, let's co-op in hockey and build a super team." They happen when schools in a similar region are not getting a turn out and need to put a program together with other schools to get kids to participate in the sport. The simple fact that they are co-oping means those thousands of kids aren't playing hockey.

Over the last 5 years Minneapolis went from 7 teams, to 2 teams, now to 1. It isn't because they want to make a monster team, it's because from 7 schools, with total enrollment probably around 15,000, only enough to field one sub par team are coming out for hockey. That's less than a handful a school. Adding an additional disadvantage to an already disadvantaged situation doesn't help.

If East started a co-op, for example, with Two Harbors because numbers went down and they couldn't field a team, that would be different.


For everything else you said though, I agree 100%. In all the years St John's was running through there conference year in and year out in football, I never heard anyone mention them moving up, just compliments of how good the program was. Same with WI-Whitewater.

For a hockey example, St Norbert's year in and year out could most likely skate with below average D1 teams. They have a great D3 program. No one suggests they should become D1, they celebrate their success.

The same is true for so many other teams in other sports. No one can every say "they have good coaches, facilities, history, etc" instead it's something about it being unfair they are in that class because they are doing well in it, even though no team in the last 10 years has been dominant during the season and at state from 2000 to now, which would indicate continued success.

[goldy313]

Clipper, ugh.....

Dodge County, Minneapolis, Becker, River Lakes....These aren't powerhouse hockey programs forming co-ops to win state titles, in fact none of these teams will get a home game in their sections. That's what Blue Earth, among others, did in wrestling (co-op to win) and that's what prompted a rule change in how co-ops are counted, from a percentage based system that was non punitive to one where you count every kid in that school even if 1 kid plays JV. To make matters even worse there may be no kids playing hockey on the varsity or JV yet because the co-op wasn't dissolved in time you still have to count the kids from the other school.

The system in place now is inheritly unfair to these programs. I've never been of the mindset that privates need to play up, however if you treat these co-op programs like they do I think it's quite hypocritical to let priavte schools and the public ones who pick up open enrolleees that play sports get to stay down a class.
2 examples.... Dover - Eyota does not offer hockey, Dodge County accepts D-E into their co-op to allow kids to play and are punished while had the D-E player decided to enroll at Lourdes or open enroll at Austin to play hockey those teams would have not suffered at all and in fact could gain an advantage. Lourdes has players on their team that attended all 3 public high schools in the 9th grade then transferred to Lourdes for the 10th grade, Lourdes is grades 9-12, which is all legal but pretty unfair to the schools that co-op and are forced up.

[blindref]

The Mshsl should take a page from beer league softball.

If you win class A, next year you plaY Aa

[MnMade-4-Life]

The Mshsl should take a page from beer league softball.

If you win class A, next year you plaY Aa

I hate myself for knowing this ... but Euro Soccer (football ) leagues use the same principle. I think it's the top 2-3 in each league switch spots with the lowest 2-3 in the league above them.

[HShockeywatcher]

The system in place now is inheritly unfair to these programs. I've never been of the mindset that privates need to play up, however if you treat these co-op programs like they do I think it's quite hypocritical to let priavte schools and the public ones who pick up open enrolleees that play sports get to stay down a class.

While I may agree in principle with this statement, making one more right to a wrong, wouldn't fix the wrong going on.

The Mshsl should take a page from beer league softball.

If you win class A, next year you plaY Aa

The concept works in a system where you are saying one grouping is inferior to the other, like the Gold vs Silver Divisions of Schwan Cup, not in a system based on enrollment. Also, not in a system where there is no "worst team."

[TheClipper]

Goldy313,

Once again, Coop classification guidelines are well known and understood by all parties, and are understood throughout the lengthy process required to form a Coop. They knew what they were getting into and they agreed to it. Your crying, now, that Coops shouldn't be AA status is just, well..........................whiny.

Also, where was it ever written that newly formed teams have some guarantee of success? Coops may take a beating initially, but nothing lasts forever, and the huge upside is that more kids, in more geographcal areas, get to play hockey? No one ever promised them they'd be a "powerhouse" out of the gate.

[goldy313]

Where did I say co-ops shouldn't be AA? All I said was the current system is unfair. The other issue would be co-ops dissolving just because the co-op would then force the host school to be AA, Lourdes and New Prague have done this in the past few years. That's a reduction in opportunities, luckily in both situations the school dropped was picked up by another school the next season. A percentage based system would have eliminated that.

[HShockeywatcher]

Where did I say co-ops shouldn't be AA? All I said was the current system is unfair. The other issue would be co-ops dissolving just because the co-op would then force the host school to be AA, Lourdes and New Prague have done this in the past few years. That's a reduction in opportunities, luckily in both situations the school dropped was picked up by another school the next season. A percentage based system would have eliminated that.

What exactly does this percentage system you speak of do and how does it work?

Two questions:
1. Does anyone know what it takes for schools to form a co-op in a sport? In theory, could two "powerhouse" teams band together to make a better team?

2. I don't know how the rules work exactly, but (I believe) if you would like to play a sport your school does not offer and a nearby school does offer it, you can play for that school.
Maybe they had co-ops I did not know about, but this happened with people I've known of.
If this is true, how does this work? Or am I wrong?

[MGnosmirc21]

There are obvious ones that NEED to opt up. Having a winning record over mediocre teams only gives you one great big self pat on the back in the end. What does that teach?

[AlterEagle]

I got it I got it... let's have the State Champs from A and AA play each other in a MSHSL sanctioned game. Winner gets bragging rights. That would force the privates to man up... like that would ever happen though.

[ACTUALFORMERPLAYER]

I got it I got it... let's have the State Champs from A and AA play each other in a MSHSL sanctioned game. Winner gets bragging rights. That would force the privates to man up... like that would ever happen though.

This is the annual dumbest post right after the State Tourney. A team runs a gauntlet like 6AA then has to beat three top teams to win a the State AA title. The a champ might have one tough section game. At State they will have have one very easy game, a game they are clearly favored, and one tough game. Then their fans always want a crack at the AA Champ. They can have a crack at the AA Champ. All you have to do is submit paperwork in the middle of the summer and opt up. Otherwise shut up.

[DubCHAGuy]

I got it I got it... let's have the State Champs from A and AA play each other in a MSHSL sanctioned game. Winner gets bragging rights. That would force the privates to man up... like that would ever happen though.

This is the annual dumbest post right after the State Tourney. A team runs a gauntlet like 6AA then has to beat three top teams to win a the State AA title. The a champ might have one tough section game. At State they will have have one very easy game, a game they are clearly favored, and one tough game. Then their fans always want a crack at the AA Champ. They can have a crack at the AA Champ. All you have to do is submit paperwork in the middle of the summer and opt up. Otherwise shut up.

+1 ACTUALFORMERPLAYER

[goldy313]

The percentage system worked something akin to the .6 free/reduced lunch program multiplier. If I remember correctly if your co-op team had 40 kids on it and 4 were from the co-op school then you would add 10% of the co-op schools total enrollment. So say East High had an enrollment of 900 and had a co-op with South High who had an enrollment of 500. East High was the host school so they would count 100% of their enrollment, so 900. South High had 25% of the rostered players on the co-op so South high would count 500 x .25 = 125. The co-op would then have 1025 students instead of 1400.

A co-op takes school approval, Rochester public schools, for instance, does not allow any out of district co-ops per district policy, you have to open enroll. Lourdes and JM co-op but Lourdes is in district. Then you need to apply to the MSHSL and state a need, generally 1 school can not field a team and without a co-op opportunities would be lost. My oldest son went to Lourdes because there was no co-op, my second stayed home and went to Stewartville but by then we had a co-op with Lourdes. That's how it worked back then at least. They approve it or don't. I doubt they would let two schools who could field a team co-op and as with Highland Park encourage those who can field a team to do so.


I don't think you can just play for a school without going to that school or being part of a co-op anymore. I think that changed with the implementation of the transfer rule because we used to allow home school kids to participate but no longer do.

[defense]

I got it I got it... let's have the State Champs from A and AA play each other in a MSHSL sanctioned game. Winner gets bragging rights. That would force the privates to man up... like that would ever happen though.

This is the annual dumbest post right after the State Tourney. A team runs a gauntlet like 6AA then has to beat three top teams to win a the State AA title. The a champ might have one tough section game. At State they will have have one very easy game, a game they are clearly favored, and one tough game. Then their fans always want a crack at the AA Champ. They can have a crack at the AA Champ. All you have to do is submit paperwork in the middle of the summer and opt up. Otherwise shut up.

Actually it's usually some who's team got beat at the metro tournement or AA tourney and is disgruntled because they believe their team would've walked through the A tournement. Or It's the guy who's team got smoked by a private school in the State tournement or A tourney and thinks that it is unfair. Finally it is the alum who's team just lost to Warroad and thinks they should have to move to AA because of the rumors which I will not mention for obvious reasons.
Now and then there is actually a post where the author is genuine in wondering if his state A champ can beat the AA, unfortunately it usually is not.

[dontcallmeshirley]

I got it I got it... let's have the State Champs from A and AA play each other in a MSHSL sanctioned game. Winner gets bragging rights. That would force the privates to man up... like that would ever happen though.

This is the annual dumbest post right after the State Tourney. A team runs a gauntlet like 6AA then has to beat three top teams to win a the State AA title. The a champ might have one tough section game. At State they will have have one very easy game, a game they are clearly favored, and one tough game. Then their fans always want a crack at the AA Champ. They can have a crack at the AA Champ. All you have to do is submit paperwork in the middle of the summer and opt up. Otherwise shut up.

Wait a second...I thought that all AA teams were automatically superior to A teams (it is, after all, the "JV" state championship). It wouldn't matter if the entire team played lefthanded, they could still win. An interesting note: STA beat Moorhead in the Seventh Place game in Schwan's Silver the year that Moorhead upset Edina and marched to the state title game where they were overcome by The Great Leddy. It appears possible that A schools can at times overcome the adversity of being categorically worse than AA ones.

In any event, the evil private schools that are the source of constant complaining seem to fall into two categories: those that have opted up (Benilde, Hill, AHA, etc. A purer variety of recruiter.) and those that have remained in Class A (STA (grrrr) Breck, Blake, Lourdes). What about the others? What about Minnehaha, which is pitifully spending this season searching for its dignity? The Saints, which were forced by dropping hockey numbers to expand their co-op, a move that vaulted them into AA? What about the teams that compete in A but don't necessarily succeed, the Providences and the Holy Familys (Families?)? Why punish them for the success of others? A problem has been identified, because the "powerhouses," which, incidentally, haven't had any wildly consistent success in the last 10 years, are clearly responsible for recruiting, but the solution to "opt up" if you win appears pretty half-baked
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