Coaches think they know the rules, But do they

[whockeyguy]

Why is it hockey mandates the officials to take testing EVERY year to officiate , but then they run into coaches that havent open a rule book up in three- five years, but will continue to degrade official on off the ice,,,,,, AND NO i am not an official just a spectator that sees this as disturbing, shoudl Mn Hockey mandate coaches at least k take the simple level 1 testing that all officials have to take,,,

[InigoMontoya]

I say throw minor officials in there, as well. Too many times 5-10 minutes get wasted as the ice officials have to explain what "coincidental" means or how a 2 + 10 works. You'd expect that at a squirt B or C game, but have sat around at peewee and bantam games this year, as well.

[ctbrow1]

whockey, I agree there are a bunch of coaches out there that are confused with the rules. A simple online tool on MN hockey would go a long way to helping coaches understand the rules.

However, the only people that are at the rink and getting paid are the officials. $25-$35 per game(roughly an hour) equals $72800/year. Too often I have seen refs that don't give the effort to get to the blueline to make the proper call, interrupt coaches when addressing their teams during the 1 minute intermission, etc.

Take for instance the issues that many teams had with the officiating during the Bloomington A Peewee tournament. 5 teams out of 16 stated an officating issue. In fact, 1 ref started an arguement with a coach before the game. This is not unheard of nor is rare. The officials are supposed to be professional(training, paid), a majority of coaches are parents or are volunteers. More should be expected of the officials not less.

[inthestands]

I'm sure we can all point to examples for coaches, minor officials, and referee's that are to the extreme.

Most of the issues come from lack of education, communication, and unwillingness to listen before speaking.

Overall most do a good job. Coaches are responsible for teaching our kids about hockey and life. Officials are there to do a job mostly because they love the game, and make some money.

ctbrow, not sure where you got those numbers but I don't know too many officials that work over 200 games a season. That's what it would take to make the number you have. Many do between 25 and 75. The newer officials starting usually see less than 10. Ove 50% of the new officials quit their first year from the abuse.

Coaches face similar issues. Unrealistic parents, kids that get little to no guidance at home, but yet are suppose to take direction from someone at the rink. Most of the coaches I know get some sort of pay for their time. Nothing close to make the hours worthwhile, outside of giving back to the community and possibly coaching their kids.

If everyone went into each game giving their best, spectating instead of complaining, and doint their best to have a good time, the experience of hockey would be much better.

[The Next One]

whockey, I agree there are a bunch of coaches out there that are confused with the rules. A simple online tool on MN hockey would go a long way to helping coaches understand the rules.

However, the only people that are at the rink and getting paid are the officials. $25-$35 per game(roughly an hour) equals $72800/year. Too often I have seen refs that don't give the effort to get to the blueline to make the proper call, interrupt coaches when addressing their teams during the 1 minute intermission, etc.

Take for instance the issues that many teams had with the officiating during the Bloomington A Peewee tournament. 5 teams out of 16 stated an officating issue. In fact, 1 ref started an arguement with a coach before the game. This is not unheard of nor is rare. The officials are supposed to be professional(training, paid), a majority of coaches are parents or are volunteers. More should be expected of the officials not less.

where do you live? I want to make $72,800 reffing amatuer hockey.

[inthestands]

where do you live? I want to make $72,800 reffing amatuer hockey.

Oops, that's 2000 games not 200.. Didn't read close enough, or think anyone could be that ignorant to think an amateur hockey official makes a lot of money...

[Educator29]

This is an area Coaches truely need to know more about. Amazing how many do not know the Rules, penalties, so on and so forth. The Rules and the way penalties are called have changed so much over the years. If an official called penalties 100% by the BOOK there would be SO many penalties coaches and parents would lynch the ref's.
I am always amazed how coaches can coach the game with out know the rules?

[Scout716]

The Ref's have a very difficult job to do. One thing everyone needs to remember is officaiting is 99 % based on the Judgement and perception of the guys with the whistle in there hands. You may think its a penalty, however the guy with the whistle did not. or YES he could have missed it they're all human. Remeber with 2 officials the guy by the players bench may leave his partner to call what is in the corner 10 feet away from him rather then the other guy 60 + feet away. also the guy out on the blue line, maybe his job is to watch the front of the net? or the play surounding the puck? Sometimes as an official your to close to the play, sometimes you see something totally different sinse you are so close to the play. some kids do fall on there own, Just because someone falls it does not mean it shuld be a penalty. anyway - just remember its all judgement. if you think your "judgement" is better suited to be a ref, Sign UP!!! Appications and testing is done in September

[hocmom]

The rules have changed.

The new Standards of Play are misunderstood.

Check out this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZQuXd3e7t8

The standards are not that new anymore, but many people still hold to the rules they played under in high school 25 years ago.

[BadgerBob82]

There are a lot of coaches that remember the rules when they played and don't follow the changes over the years. If referees could explain a rule as, "I know it used to be the way you are thinking, but it changed and I made the right call."

Contrary to what referees and referee coordinators like the think, there are coaches that know the rule book, some that even referee. And to hear "Grab a whistle and you try it" is the wrong answer to most questions.

Referees are human and make mistakes. Be grown up enough to admit it! Learn from it, and move forward.

[MnMade-4-Life]

god bless the refs, for the most part they do a great job.

Sure, occasionally you run into an idiot ... but overall MN refs are better than the rest by far.

[black sheep]

coaches and officials will argue about calls as long as there is a game. part of coaching is getting calls to benefit your team. it has little to do with the actual debating of the "rule". the best coaches get the most advantages for their team.

officials "offiate' and coaches "coach'...such is life.

[inthestands]

There are a lot of coaches that remember the rules when they played and don't follow the changes over the years. If referees could explain a rule as, "I know it used to be the way you are thinking, but it changed and I made the right call."

Contrary to what referees and referee coordinators like the think, there are coaches that know the rule book, some that even referee. And to hear "Grab a whistle and you try it" is the wrong answer to most questions.

Referees are human and make mistakes. Be grown up enough to admit it! Learn from it, and move forward.

I agree with BB82. It would probably be much easier to admit mistakes if the discussion behind what the mistake happened to be was brought in a reasonable manner.

Usually though, we know the stands are full of uneducated fans that have a stake in one side or the other, coaches that aren't in the mood for a low volume discussion, and an official that probably already knows one of two things happened.

1- They screwed the pooch and made a bad call, or
2- It looked like one thing from the fans/coaching perspective, but it was quite another thing from ice level and face to face with the play.

One things for sure, as long as sports continue to employ people to officiate, there will be disagreements about a high percentage of calls made. The best we can hope for is a consistent game calling strategy from all on ice officials.

[drop the puck]

I say throw minor officials in there, as well. Too many times 5-10 minutes get wasted as the ice officials have to explain what "coincidental" means or how a 2 + 10 works. You'd expect that at a squirt B or C game, but have sat around at peewee and bantam games this year, as well.

Really ? You ever work the box Inigo?

Minor Officials are usually parent volunteers that were assigned to be there by the team manager. Training occurs when they show up the first time.

Pathetic comment at best.

[TriedThat2]

Seems like some of the coaches I've met receive the same amount of training.

[InigoMontoya]

I say throw minor officials in there, as well. Too many times 5-10 minutes get wasted as the ice officials have to explain what "coincidental" means or how a 2 + 10 works. You'd expect that at a squirt B or C game, but have sat around at peewee and bantam games this year, as well.

Really ? You ever work the box Inigo?

Minor Officials are usually parent volunteers that were assigned to be there by the team manager. Training occurs when they show up the first time.

Pathetic comment at best.

Was it a secret that the parents would be expected to work in the box? They showed up at the rink in January and, "Oh, by the way, your running the clock today with no prior experience of how to add a penalty or what "running time" means. Pull your head out of your lower regions and take an interest in what your kid is doing - you look and sound like a moron when charging is called and you blurt out 'traveling'. Peewee parents have had kids playing for 6-8 years; there is no excuse for 4 or 5 of them to be standing in the box, and not one of them has any clue what just happened or what happens next. But instead let's just show up without knowing the rules, without knowing the names of the other kids on the team; just keep dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator.

[hocmom]

Reminds me of the penalty kill. At high school games I would sit next to one of the senior moms. During a penalty kill when the defensive players are "in the box" in front of the net she would constantly shout, GO GET HIM, GO GET HIM. I would remind her that we were on penalty kill and that her son was doing exactly what the coach wanted...this would satisfy her, until the next penalty kill.

The trick to get experienced minor officials is to spread the work around. I love to run the clock and keep the sheet. There are a few of us that prefer to be in the box during the game, we need to get others over there to learn. Makes it much easier at tournament time to have a bunch that know how.

[the_juiceman]

I say throw minor officials in there, as well. Too many times 5-10 minutes get wasted as the ice officials have to explain what "coincidental" means or how a 2 + 10 works. You'd expect that at a squirt B or C game, but have sat around at peewee and bantam games this year, as well.

Really ? You ever work the box Inigo?

Minor Officials are usually parent volunteers that were assigned to be there by the team manager. Training occurs when they show up the first time.

Pathetic comment at best.

our assc. has a training class to learn how to run the clock and what the signs are for penalties--about 2 hours- only a few people show up, and then when the time comes for the parents to do their turn on the clock, they whine and say I don't know how! take the time to get involved and learn the game & the rules, you'll enjoy it more, and make it a better experience for your kid. Most just sit in the stands and hope their kid gets a goal and couldn't care less how the TEAM as a whole does.

[drop the puck]

I say throw minor officials in there, as well. Too many times 5-10 minutes get wasted as the ice officials have to explain what "coincidental" means or how a 2 + 10 works. You'd expect that at a squirt B or C game, but have sat around at peewee and bantam games this year, as well.

Really ? You ever work the box Inigo?

Minor Officials are usually parent volunteers that were assigned to be there by the team manager. Training occurs when they show up the first time.

Pathetic comment at best.

Was it a secret that the parents would be expected to work in the box? They showed up at the rink in January and, "Oh, by the way, your running the clock today with no prior experience of how to add a penalty or what "running time" means. Pull your head out of your lower regions and take an interest in what your kid is doing - you look and sound like a moron when charging is called and you blurt out 'traveling'. Peewee parents have had kids playing for 6-8 years; there is no excuse for 4 or 5 of them to be standing in the box, and not one of them has any clue what just happened or what happens next. But instead let's just show up without knowing the rules, without knowing the names of the other kids on the team; just keep dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator.

It is youth hockey. The officials and minor officials are not always top talent. I have coached in this league and worked as a minor official from league games, our home association tournament games, and Minnesota District and State Tournament games at the PW, Bantam and U14 level.

Even in the MN State PW and Bantam A tournaments, you never know who will show up to help - you appreciate they are there and do your best to make it work out fair. Training? Hell the associations are just looking for volunteers let alone experienced people.

Parents? Most are supportive, but some do not care to be over involved. It is just another sport in a year long cycle. Others are tired of the coach's kid always on the power play or on the select team at year end ...

Others drop their kid off an hour before the game, head to the nearest bar and go slap down a few drinks or more. They arrive at game time. Only to find out they are working the box.

Again it is youth hockey. Stuff happens ... More than just the minor officials.

How about the coach that is ahead by a goal at home. They slow the game down with off-sides and icing calls and other delays in the 3rd period because they know the zamboni driver will flip open the doors and end the game early when the hour is up?

[sinbin]

There are ways to make the volunteer system work, both as an association and as individual teams, so that everyone does at least a halfway decent job of the timeclock and scoresheet and most do exceptional jobs. Having done both over the past 10 years, it takes a bit of work to set expectations, train, and follow up, but eventually you get almost everyone to fall in line and things run as they should. Just one simple but effective idea is to have detailed (i.e., Timeclock Operation for Dummies) instructions at all rinks, on-line, managers' books, registration packets, etc.. There are plenty more ideas that work.

As with most things, it's 80/20. Finding the 20% to do 80% of the work is easy. Just cull the remaining herd to get the other 20% of the work done. There will always be certain families who are takers only with nothing to give and I've learned not to spend my limited time stressing over them.

[skills_coach1]

coaches and officials will argue about calls as long as there is a game. part of coaching is getting calls to benefit your team. it has little to do with the actual debating of the "rule". the best coaches get the most advantages for their team.

officials "officiate' and coaches "coach'...such is life.

Seriously man? Is this the type of coach you want your kids playing for? One that tries to maximize any unfair advantage? WOW! is all I have to say. I have reffed, coached (24 yrs), and of course played. I am sickened by the guys that always question an officials call...

I look at it like arguing with a cop when you have done 70 in a 55.. I mean penalties are part of the game , plain and simple. I have yet to see ever where arguing a penalty call has changed the outcome... Have you? Having been on the stripes side I know exactly what goes through my mind when a coach argues with me..... And compromise is not it.

I agree we sometimes don't have the same talent level of officiating out there as we would expect, but, as a coach it's our responsibility to not be an a$$hole as well... You want to be teaching kids to respect officials, or just argue?

Just askin?

[C-dad]

coaches and officials will argue about calls as long as there is a game. part of coaching is getting calls to benefit your team. it has little to do with the actual debating of the "rule". the best coaches get the most advantages for their team.

officials "officiate' and coaches "coach'...such is life.

Seriously man? Is this the type of coach you want your kids playing for? One that tries to maximize any unfair advantage? WOW! is all I have to say. I have reffed, coached (24 yrs), and of course played. I am sickened by the guys that always question an officials call...

I look at it like arguing with a cop when you have done 70 in a 55.. I mean penalties are part of the game , plain and simple. I have yet to see ever where arguing a penalty call has changed the outcome... Have you? Having been on the stripes side I know exactly what goes through my mind when a coach argues with me..... And compromise is not it.

I agree we sometimes don't have the same talent level of officiating out there as we would expect, but, as a coach it's our responsibility to not be an a$$hole as well... You want to be teaching kids to respect officials, or just argue?

Just askin?

Unfortunately, I have seen refs who don't give in on the first call argued, but after every call is questioned, they start to question things themselves and the calls start going the other way. In fact, in a game last week, our team received the first 5 penalties, including some seriously questionable ones while some egregious violations the other way went uncalled. Our coaches questioned them and in a fit of pique I yelled from the stands "you can call them on blue too!"

The last 4 calls were all on blue, including one very questionable one where my kid got knocked down while he had the puck and they called it interference!

Good refs have to have the confidence to make the calls they see and stick to it. If someone - coach or parent from the stands - questions it, they may need to warn them to shut up and stick to their guns.

What I'm saying is, arguing can swing the calls, although it should not.

[woodley]

coaches and officials will argue about calls as long as there is a game. part of coaching is getting calls to benefit your team. it has little to do with the actual debating of the "rule". the best coaches get the most advantages for their team.

officials "officiate' and coaches "coach'...such is life.

Seriously man? Is this the type of coach you want your kids playing for? One that tries to maximize any unfair advantage? WOW! is all I have to say. I have reffed, coached (24 yrs), and of course played. I am sickened by the guys that always question an officials call...

I look at it like arguing with a cop when you have done 70 in a 55.. I mean penalties are part of the game , plain and simple. I have yet to see ever where arguing a penalty call has changed the outcome... Have you? Having been on the stripes side I know exactly what goes through my mind when a coach argues with me..... And compromise is not it.

I agree we sometimes don't have the same talent level of officiating out there as we would expect, but, as a coach it's our responsibility to not be an a$$hole as well... You want to be teaching kids to respect officials, or just argue?

Just askin?

I mostly agree with you, but, if there is a genuine question, it's reasonable to ask for an explanation. I remember one game I reffed in a PW tourney where I called a hook on a play that was close to a breakaway. The coach called me over and asked why I didn't call the penalty shot. . . I explained my reasoning, he seemed reluctant to accept the reasoning. My partner and I started talking during the period break and got out the rule book and manuals (yes, they are always in my bag!) and reviewed the criteria. We were correct on the call. Prior to the beginning of the next period my partner and I went to both coaches and explained our review and which criteria was not met. The questioning coach broke into a smile, thanked us, and didn't say another word except "Good Call" the rest of the tournament. He sent in a feedback sheet to our ref supervisor. . . turns out, not only was he a coach, he was a 20+ year ref. . . my point is there are really positive ways to work together as coaches and refs to benefit the kids. The goal for parents, coaches, and referees should be to develop these kids in skills, knowledge, and respect. We have opportunities to model positive behavior as a life lesson. . . let's all try to remember why we're at the rink!!!

[skills_coach1]

I mostly agree with you, but, if there is a genuine question, it's reasonable to ask for an explanation. I remember one game I reffed in a PW tourney where I called a hook on a play that was close to a breakaway. The coach called me over and asked why I didn't call the penalty shot. . . I explained my reasoning, he seemed reluctant to accept the reasoning. My partner and I started talking during the period break and got out the rule book and manuals (yes, they are always in my bag!) and reviewed the criteria. We were correct on the call. Prior to the beginning of the next period my partner and I went to both coaches and explained our review and which criteria was not met. The questioning coach broke into a smile, thanked us, and didn't say another word except "Good Call" the rest of the tournament. He sent in a feedback sheet to our ref supervisor. . . turns out, not only was he a coach, he was a 20+ year ref. . . my point is there are really positive ways to work together as coaches and refs to benefit the kids. The goal for parents, coaches, and referees should be to develop these kids in skills, knowledge, and respect. We have opportunities to model positive behavior as a life lesson. . . let's all try to remember why we're at the rink!!!

Couldn't agree more sir.... I have asked questions, but, being argumentative with a ref certainly does not seem to help. There also seems to be a point that innocent questions can have the opposite effect. So I try to keep mine on as "absolutely necessary basis".

What I'm saying is, arguing can swing the calls, although it should not.

Maybe you did have some impact, or maybe there was a subconscious desire to level things out by the refs?

Reffing is not easy, doubt entered my mind quite often when I was out there. I kept telling myself call what you see and you will be fine.... Well, we all know that is only half the story... And usually it is the stuff you don't see that is argued to a greater extent. Regardless, I think there is a notion for most of us that we like to see things in balance.... Penalties included. Unless there is an obvious tendency by one team to have a series of penalties, often times penalties are evened out by the end of a game? Although, somehow it doesn't feel that way if one team is the recipient of those all in one period!!!

I try to make sure the kids I coach are aware that penalties rarely "make" the game, they can influence it, but, I can't say I have ever been "homered" to the point that we lost due to calls.... Most were for obvious things that were deserved. We have a responsibility to teach kids that adversity slows you down and perseverance allows you to keep going despite a call here or there.... If I argue, it simply blows all that away...

Sorry for being long winded