What a difference a year makes

[USA! USA! USA!]

Quasar ... I think I remember you saying you were building a database of 97 kids. Check this out ;

13 months ago these 97 born kids were the top scorers at the Caribous Classic;
http://pointstreak.com/players/players- ... sonid=4482

Now, just 13 months later, this September one of those kids is playing in the High School Elite League and one of those kids is playing is playing on Shattuck's Bantam Major Tier 1 AAA 96 team ... pretty impressive

Do you know which ones they are?

[observer]

A 97 in the Elite League?

[Quasar]

Quasar ... I think I remember you saying you were building a database of 97 kids. Check this out ;

13 months ago these 97 born kids were the top scorers at the Caribous Classic;
http://pointstreak.com/players/players- ... sonid=4482

Now, just 13 months later, this September one of those kids is playing in the High School Elite League and one of those kids is playing is playing on Shattuck's Bantam Major Tier 1 AAA 96 team ... pretty impressive

Do you know which ones they are?

Not yet ..But I'm workin' on it ...

[USA! USA! USA!]

Elite D, but still ... kids got 1 point through first 3 games so far ...

[USA! USA! USA!]

I'll give you a hint ... neither played for Blades, Machine or Raiders (Blades/Machine hybrid) at Caribou ...

(Although, there is one '97 Blade and one '97 Machine player on Shattuck's Bantam Tier II roster ... one of which is also listed amongst the top scorers on that list )

[Quasar]

I'll give you a hint ... neither played for Blades, Machine or Raiders (Blades/Machine hybrid) at Caribou ...

(Although, there is one '97 Blade and one '97 Machine player on Shattuck's Bantam Tier II roster ... one of which is also listed amongst the top scorers on that list )

I'll tell you what I'm doing. I've entered as many names as I could using the summer hockey tournaments, and web sites. Over 500 now. I want to track as many of these kids as I can for the next 4 years to see how the summer kids stack up against the whole. I have all the kids that were in your link. Now I am busy comparing my list to the emerging 2010/2011 Peewee A, Peewee B, Bantam A, B and C association rosters..

I have only entered two associations so far. I have kids playing first year Bantam A, B and C. So far all the Peewee's are on A teams. If you don't already know, I am an advocate for tier 1 hockey in Minnesota.. This is my attempt to put "my money where my mouth is" so to speak. I don't know exactly how this is going to work yet, but if nothing else it keeps me busy !!

[O-townClown]

Q:

I have a list of the players from our area for one birth year that I am tracking going forward to get insight into the "The Best Mites Aren't The Best....." comments.

I think what you'll find and what I'll find is there is no locked correlation. Some great players in summer remain great players and other great players won't play as much in the summer and remain great. Some lousy players are always lousy. And some slide up or down the ladder. But most importantly, we'll draw from a broader reference point than just a hunch that lacks scientific scrutiny.

I applaud your efforts. Have fun with it!

[Quasar]

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[quote="O-townClown"]Q:

I have a list of the players from our area for one birth year that I am tracking going forward to get insight into the "The Best Mites Aren't The Best....." comments.

I think what you'll find and what I'll find is there is no locked correlation.  Some great players in summer remain great players and other great players won't play as much in the summer and remain great.  Some lousy players are always lousy.  And some slide up or down the ladder.  But most importantly, we'll draw from a broader reference point than just a hunch that lacks scientific scrutiny.

I applaud your efforts.  Have fun with it![/quote]

Hi again,
At this point I'm more interested in how these kids move through the system.. I am mostly confused right now, but I'm sure that things will become clearer as I progress. Perhaps someday we can compare notes, and I promise not to call you names

[HeShootsHeScores]

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[quote="O-townClown"]Q:

I have a list of the players from our area for one birth year that I am tracking going forward to get insight into the "The Best Mites Aren't The Best....." comments.

I think what you'll find and what I'll find is there is no locked correlation.  Some great players in summer remain great players and other great players won't play as much in the summer and remain great.  Some lousy players are always lousy.  And some slide up or down the ladder.  But most importantly, we'll draw from a broader reference point than just a hunch that lacks scientific scrutiny.

I applaud your efforts.  Have fun with it![/quote]

Hi again,
At this point I'm more interested in how these kids move through the system.. I am mostly confused right now, but I'm sure that things will become clearer as I progress. Perhaps someday we can compare notes, and I promise not to call you names

Sounds like you are on step 2 of the 7 step scientific method. just make sure to account for confounding variables, have a control group and the like or all your time spent will be for nothing and you'll be eaten alive here. I think it sounds interesting and also something you enjoy. I'll be looking forward to the results in a few years.

[Quasar]

Code: Select all

[quote="O-townClown"]Q:

I have a list of the players from our area for one birth year that I am tracking going forward to get insight into the "The Best Mites Aren't The Best....." comments.

I think what you'll find and what I'll find is there is no locked correlation.  Some great players in summer remain great players and other great players won't play as much in the summer and remain great.  Some lousy players are always lousy.  And some slide up or down the ladder.  But most importantly, we'll draw from a broader reference point than just a hunch that lacks scientific scrutiny.

I applaud your efforts.  Have fun with it![/quote]

Hi again,
At this point I'm more interested in how these kids move through the system.. I am mostly confused right now, but I'm sure that things will become clearer as I progress. Perhaps someday we can compare notes, and I promise not to call you names

Sounds like you are on step 2 of the 7 step scientific method. just make sure to account for confounding variables, have a control group and the like or all your time spent will be for nothing and you'll be eaten alive here. I think it sounds interesting and also something you enjoy. I'll be looking forward to the results in a few years.

Thanks for the encouragement. At the moment it seems to be a daunting task. Just getting the rosters can be problematic. Not impossible ..Just difficult in some circumstances. But ..I have a lot of time. After reading your post I think I need to do a little research on research!! Or at least figure out what that 7 step method is !!

[USA! USA! USA!]

These 2 kids are a good contrast. Maybe interesting subjects in your study.

One is at the very top of this list and one is at the very bottom.
http://pointstreak.com/players/players- ... sonid=4482

The one at the top of the list is playing in the Elite High School League (Developmental) with the Omaha U16 Tier 1 AAA Midget team and already has a point in 3 games
http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/roster_playe ... ason=24971

The one at the very bottom, struggled to just 1 goal in the entire tournament, but will be filling the net for Shattuck's Tier 1 Bantam Major team this winter
http://www.ssmsports.org/hockey/teams/2 ... r-i-roster

Old Goalie will like this ... both boys played with the Nats that summer and this season will be playing hockey at a higher level than any of their summer AAA counterparts , Blades, Machine or otherwise ...

Just goes to show they develop at different rates. The first boy was at the top and continues to press his advantage (he's got nice size to match his skill)

The second boy came from way behind and passed a lot of kids deemed "better". He was aided with a nice growth spurt last winter, kept working on his edges and did a lot of extracuricular work with his hands.

Lots of different roads leading to the same door ...

[dogeatdog1]

Quasar ... I think I remember you saying you were building a database of 97 kids. Check this out ;

13 months ago these 97 born kids were the top scorers at the Caribous Classic;
http://pointstreak.com/players/players- ... sonid=4482

Now, just 13 months later, this September one of those kids is playing in the High School Elite League and one of those kids is playing is playing on Shattuck's Bantam Major Tier 1 AAA 96 team ... pretty impressive

Do you know which ones they are?

If you are looking at trying to find the Best 97's I wouldn't look to the Caribou cup for your players. Look at the Prospects or subway classic. Don't pay much attention to the online stats as they are rarely correct and No my kid didn't get robbed by the on line scoring.... He actually didn't play in that tourney and if he did he would have got some points from the bench ... he is famous for that.... Rosters for the big tourneys are readily available on line. Cougar classic. showdown in mowtown. subway classic prospects... etc...

[Quasar]

These 2 kids are a good contrast. Maybe interesting subjects in your study.

One is at the very top of this list and one is at the very bottom.
http://pointstreak.com/players/players- ... sonid=4482

The one at the top of the list is playing in the Elite High School League (Developmental) with the Omaha U16 Tier 1 AAA Midget team and already has a point in 3 games
http://www.mnhockeyhub.com/roster_playe ... ason=24971

The one at the very bottom, struggled to just 1 goal in the entire tournament, but will be filling the net for Shattuck's Tier 1 Bantam Major team this winter
http://www.ssmsports.org/hockey/teams/2 ... r-i-roster

Old Goalie will like this ... both boys played with the Nats that summer and this season will be playing hockey at a higher level than any of their summer AAA counterparts , Blades, Machine or otherwise ...

Just goes to show they develop at different rates. The first boy was at the top and continues to press his advantage (he's got nice size to match his skill)

The second boy came from way behind and passed a lot of kids deemed "better". He was aided with a nice growth spurt last winter, kept working on his edges and did a lot of extracuricular work with his hands.

Lots of different roads leading to the same door ...

[

Thanks USA!! I've entered the data in the appropriate place. By the way FYI.. The kid now playing at SSM also played for the Machine according to my records. I think in the Subway ... I would have to look it up to be sure.

[Quasar]

Quasar ... I think I remember you saying you were building a database of 97 kids. Check this out ;

13 months ago these 97 born kids were the top scorers at the Caribous Classic;
http://pointstreak.com/players/players- ... sonid=4482

Now, just 13 months later, this September one of those kids is playing in the High School Elite League and one of those kids is playing is playing on Shattuck's Bantam Major Tier 1 AAA 96 team ... pretty impressive

Do you know which ones they are?

If you are looking at trying to find the Best 97's I wouldn't look to the Caribou cup for your players. Look at the Prospects or subway classic. Don't pay much attention to the online stats as they are rarely correct and No my kid didn't get robbed by the on line scoring.... He actually didn't play in that tourney and if he did he would have got some points from the bench ... he is famous for that.... Rosters for the big tourneys are readily available on line. Cougar classic. showdown in mowtown. subway classic prospects... etc...

Thanks Dog,
I've looked at a lot more than the Caribou ... I am mostly interested in Minnesota activity, unless of course our 97's end up somewhere else..
Then I want to know how they do. Like I said in another post. Mostly I want to see what happens to them as they work their way through the Minnesota associations. I already know of a kid that played at a pretty high level during the summer that got buried in his association. A developing player with a funny skating stride, but with great hands.. Had more than his share of points over the summer on a respectable open team. For whatever reason he was placed on a C Bantam team with some kids that can hardly skate.. I want to find out if this kid will overcome his situation and make it through to high school.. If not , I would like to see where he is a couple of years from now. I know that the Minnesota Model is not perfect. I would like the hard facts available to me when I argue the point with people that think we are doing the best we can. Kids like this need a choice. No one can convince me otherwise.

[USA! USA! USA!]

You're right Q. The boy did play some Orange this year. he showed up at the Torspo tryouts for the 2010 season and BM scooped him up for the Orange ... (put that one in the recruting vs development thread) ...

When he hit the ice in Chicago he was clearly the top skater on the Orange squad (IMO, before I get strung up) and when Shattuck was soliciting input from the Orange, BM let them know this kid was the only one capable of playing in their program this year - and he was right.

Dog: with regards to the talent level at Caribou, many of the kids on that leaderboard were at Subway with the Blades or Minnesota Made teams, although not the top dog. That said, that kid is on the Bantam Draft radar as one of the top three 97 forwads West of the Mississippi on many scouting lists, along with the big kid from Winnipeg and the super skilled little guy from Burnaby.

The Winnipeg kid is also playing age advanced, though only 1 year up in Winnipeg's AAA program as well. But outside of him and the Burnaby boy, the two we are speaking of here in the Elite D League and Shattuck Tier 1 AAA are as good as it gets for 97 born forwards. Definitely worth keeping an eye on.

I guess the point I was making is the contrast. While the top guy was ALREADY on the radar, the other one wasn't ... but what a difference a year makes ...

[sorno82]

Several studies have shown that there is about a 25% correlation between those that were at the top of the pyramid at around 8-10 remain at the top at 18. I am sure there are a lot of confounding factors, but it is data like that which supports LTAD models like ADM.

[USA! USA! USA!]

You're right Q. The boy did play some Orange this year. he showed up at the Torspo tryouts for the 2010 season and BM scooped him up for the Orange ... (put that one in the recruting vs development thread) ...

When he hit the ice in Chicago he was clearly the top skater on the Orange squad (IMO, before I get strung up) and when Shattuck was soliciting input from the Orange, BM let them know this kid was the only one capable of playing in their program this year - and he was right.

Dog: with regards to the talent level at Caribou, many of the kids on that leaderboard were at Subway with the Blades or Minnesota Made teams, although not the top dog. That said, that kid is on the Bantam Draft radar as one of the top three 97 forwads West of the Mississippi on my scouting lists, along with the big kid from Winnipeg and the super skilled little guy from Burnaby.

The Winnipeg kid is also playing age advanced, though only 1 year up in Winnipeg's AAA program as well. But outside of him and the Burnaby boy, the two we are speaking of here in the Elite D League and Shattuck Tier 1 AAA are as good as it gets for 97 born forwards. Definitely worth keeping an eye on.

I guess the point I was making is the contrast. While the top guy was ALREADY on the radar, the other one wasn't ... but what a difference 13 months make ...

[dogeatdog1]

You're right Q. The boy did play some Orange this year. he showed up at the Torspo tryouts for the 2010 season and BM scooped him up for the Orange ... (put that one in the recruting vs development thread) ...

When he hit the ice in Chicago he was clearly the top skater on the Orange squad (IMO, before I get strung up) and when Shattuck was soliciting input from the Orange, BM let them know this kid was the only one capable of playing in their program this year - and he was right.

Dog: with regards to the talent level at Caribou, many of the kids on that leaderboard were at Subway with the Blades or Minnesota Made teams, although not the top dog. That said, that kid is on the Bantam Draft radar as one of the top three 97 forwads West of the Mississippi on my scouting lists, along with the big kid from Winnipeg and the super skilled little guy from Burnaby.

The Winnipeg kid is also playing age advanced, though only 1 year up in Winnipeg's AAA program as well. But outside of him and the Burnaby boy, the two we are speaking of here in the Elite D League and Shattuck Tier 1 AAA are as good as it gets for 97 born forwards. Definitely worth keeping an eye on.

I guess the point I was making is the contrast. While the top guy was ALREADY on the radar, the other one wasn't ... but what a difference 13 months make ...

I agree, this is a big year for a lot of 97s in the Minnesota Model the first year Bantam jump is a lot bigger than the jump from squirts to peewees. That being said playing B1 bantams doesn't give you a death sentence from moving on. Many kids with the tools and late in development will show up in the highschool ranks. Some of the top kids at the 97 level might get caught up in a large association and not make the a team as a first year kid.

[O-townClown]

Kids like this need a choice. No one can convince me otherwise.

At least you're open-minded.

In all seriousness, some would argue that families in Minnesota do have choices. It just isn't as many as you want.

[Quasar]

You're right Q. The boy did play some Orange this year. he showed up at the Torspo tryouts for the 2010 season and BM scooped him up for the Orange ... (put that one in the recruting vs development thread) ...

When he hit the ice in Chicago he was clearly the top skater on the Orange squad (IMO, before I get strung up) and when Shattuck was soliciting input from the Orange, BM let them know this kid was the only one capable of playing in their program this year - and he was right.

Dog: with regards to the talent level at Caribou, many of the kids on that leaderboard were at Subway with the Blades or Minnesota Made teams, although not the top dog. That said, that kid is on the Bantam Draft radar as one of the top three 97 forwads West of the Mississippi on my scouting lists, along with the big kid from Winnipeg and the super skilled little guy from Burnaby.

The Winnipeg kid is also playing age advanced, though only 1 year up in Winnipeg's AAA program as well. But outside of him and the Burnaby boy, the two we are speaking of here in the Elite D League and Shattuck Tier 1 AAA are as good as it gets for 97 born forwards. Definitely worth keeping an eye on.

I guess the point I was making is the contrast. While the top guy was ALREADY on the radar, the other one wasn't ... but what a difference 13 months make ...

USA If I had your knowledge I'd be dangerous!!

My take on it is that the big changes .. Good ..and Bad.. Happen in the second year of peewee, and the first year of Bantam.. I don't think the current tryout system takes this into account. I don't think most associations really care because they are catering to the majority. One of the comments I remember from the distillation of the LHA meeting went something like this "At last A hockey wont drive the program" paraphrasing here but this is the point. If you don't want the A team driving your program give the A kids a choice. No ..I think you want the A kids so you can point to the success of your program, but you don't want them to be A kids when it comes to competition within your org.
This is the big problem as I see it. You have to let the driven kids go to a place that suits their ability's and desires.. Give them a choice!!

[GongShow Goalie]

One of my family's skaters was lucky enough to be able to take the ice with one of these players during last year's association season.

The player is truly exceptional and skilled and I hope he finds all he and his family has dreamed for in his hockey career. I always got the impression that he was just in a holding pattern until this opportunity arose for him.

That being said, he can come back to play with us anytime!!!! I would guess we'll never see him at our local rink in the team colors again. Which is probably the right thing for him in the long run. A loss for us by all means.

Good luck to him!

[Quasar]

Kids like this need a choice. No one can convince me otherwise.

At least you're open-minded.

In all seriousness, some would argue that families in Minnesota do have choices. It just isn't as many as you want.

Nope ..Not open minded about this. Open minded about how to get there..
open minded about doing it within, or outside the current system..
Open minded about discussing pro and cons..

But your right ..on the basic principal of choice for everyone My mind is made up.. I remember having this same kind of conversation years ago when we were told we didn't need Squirt A traveling hockey... Wasn't open minded about that either..I remember when face masks were introduced. even though all the kids playing at varsity level at the time were against wearing face masks. ( their argument was that it impaired their vision) I know it did, but I was open minded and went along with the face mask rule.. So i suppose what I'm trying to say, is that if you truly believe in something, you can listen, you can argue, you may even change your mind.. But you don't have to be "open minded"

[USA! USA! USA!]

Q, O: I like ahybrid of MH and T1 where you have a bantam minor age but based on the minnesota school year and keeping the high school system in mind. I believe that's a win-win for all involved. Sure its a little extra work come tourney time but minnesotans aren't the kind to shun work


So you can both be right on this one with year-to-year A teams(double the A playerd - kids will like that) and thefolks ( Mayo will embrace it as well as a step to reduce injuries

[MrBoDangles]

Quasar ... I think I remember you saying you were building a database of 97 kids. Check this out ;

13 months ago these 97 born kids were the top scorers at the Caribous Classic;
http://pointstreak.com/players/players- ... sonid=4482

Now, just 13 months later, this September one of those kids is playing in the High School Elite League and one of those kids is playing is playing on Shattuck's Bantam Major Tier 1 AAA 96 team ... pretty impressive

Do you know which ones they are?

Wonderful to see that North Branch kid at the top.......

[O-townClown]

Nope ..Not open minded about this. Open minded about how to get there..
open minded about doing it within, or outside the current system..
Open minded about discussing pro and cons..

But your right ..on the basic principal of choice for everyone My mind is made up..

Q, just gotta point out the hypocrisy. You started a thread, I listed the questions that people need answered in order to agree with you, and it was said I should go away since I am not qualified to have an opinion. *Smile* *Laugh*

What people realize is that creation of some Tier I teams means that a kid like Bo's might make the team, but more won't. Then what? The natives that are restless are now even moreso, and the programs these anointed ones came from are weakened by their loss.

While you may not be open minded, can you at least concede that this is a valid point? If not, then you are right and everyone that doesn't agree is stupid.

Me and several others concede that the plight of the proverbial huge fish in a tiny pond is a real concern, it just isn't one whose importance trumps all other matters.