Age change in Minnesota Hockey?

[observer]

What, now you're not paying attention?

More than 50% of families send their May born child to kindergarten when they're 5 years old.

Less than 50% of families send their June born child to kindergarten when they're 5 years old waiting until the next year when they're 6.

[spin-o-rama]

Spinner,

Lay out your personal situation, with details, so we can understand why you would oppose a change to June 1. We're missing something. It's a perfectly logical change.

TonyL,

You should let someone else do the talking because most of us have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Tell us about your situation too as I can't figure out your beef.

I second the motion.

I third the motion.

There are 2 parties that are effected by this date proposal.

One side started K on time. They are the youngest in their grade. They are also the youngest in hockey by up to 26 months (that's 2 months outside the age window).

The other side didn't like that they would be the youngest in K and chose to delay entrance. Now they are the oldest by up to 15 months over their classmates. In hockey they are at the bottom of the age window (but not outside it). They want the rule changed so they are at the top of the age window. They want the age advantage no matter what the activity. They claim there is no damage to the "on timers" because they can simply play up by extending the age window another month to 27 months. They are claiming that they deserve to be moved from the bottom of the age window to the top so they aren't disadvantaged, despite that meaning that others are moved outside the age window resulting in a disadvantage larger than the orginal one trying to be "corrected!"

I like to root for the little guy, so why would I want to support a side that is so self serving and hypocritical?

That doesn't mean that MH shouldn't look at the issue, but they should be looking at what is best for participation. Both retention and recruitment need to be considered.

Observer, you have made up numbers to try to justify June 1. Not only do they point closer to 8/1, but why wouldn't you want to go with accurate numbers rather than fictitious ones? What is your personal agenda?

Welders, you keep endorsing the propoganda leader without any thought to accuracy and truth. Don't be a sheep. You can do better.

WPIIA, your lies are old and wornout.

[spin-o-rama]

What, now you're not paying attention?

More than 50% of families send their May born child to kindergarten when they're 5 years old.

Less than 50% of families send their June born child to kindergarten when they're 5 years old waiting until the next year when they're 6.

Now you've come up with some new claims. Did you buy a new hat?

[spin-o-rama]

The information I had posted from Mn Hockey planning committee minutes were the reasons for staying with the July 1 birth date when USA Hockey went back to Jan 1. Nowhere in the minutes is the date of June 1 even mentioned and in all of my posts on this subject you would read that I am not in favor of the Jun 1 date.
My first preference again is to not make a change and encourage the associations that do not have a move up policy to implement one. This is the easiest way to go.

It's better to keep the status quo than to make a change in the wrong direction.

Second change to Sept 1 and go with the same birth year as the legislature has for the grades in school as an example a bantam would have to be 14 before Sept 1 to be eligible means a 96 birth year this year as an example. This would put Mn Hockey younger than USA Bantams. Negative would be all players losing a year at a level.

The negative is just transitional. How have the previous cutoff date transitions effected people? The move to younger than USAH would mean most kids would be done with Bantams after 8th grade.
U16 can fill that needed gap and provide 10 graders with a good option to play.

Third would be to use the USA birth dates, with the exception of the Jr Gold level all registration software and materials would be the same nation wide. The June 1 date does not benefit the majority of Mn Hockey members only a small minority who have been making the most noise. Next group will want May 1 and that was already brought up at a Mn Hockey meeting. Maybe April 1 would be a good one also.

A very nice summary. Thanks for being a voice of reason.

[greybeard58]

The board might not even take any action

[JSR]

This seems somewhat relevant to the topic at hand even if slightly so:

Team Wisconsin U14 opened its season this past weekend in Eau Claire with Saturday practices and two games against the Minnesota Blades ’96 team. Team Wisconsin U14 is a 9th grade only team made of of 1996 born 9th grade players choosing to play high school hockey (those playing second year bantams are not eligible). All players who choose to play for Team Wisconsin will also play for their local high school team following the before and after Team Wisconsin model. Team Wisconsin U14 is coached by John Parker and Rick Dorman.


Game 1: Tie
Team Wisconsin U14-5
Minnesota Blades '96-5


Scoring Summary for Team Wisconsin:
1st Period 4:29 Ryan Mezera (USM) Unassisted
1st Period 8:59 Zed Dietrich (Waukesha) Unassisted
2nd Period 9:07 Drew Cleereman (BayPort), Brett Gruber (Appleton United)
2nd Period 13:33 Zed Dietrich (Waukesha); Luke Davison (Notre Dame Academy) PPG
3rd Period 14:47 Will Reabe (DePere); Cooper Watson (Appleton United)
Goaltender: Ryan Wischow (Ashwaubenon) 16 saves


Game 2: Win
Team Wisconsin U14-5
Minnesota Blades '96-2


Scoring Summary for Team Wisconsin:
1st Period 3:08 Matt Berkovitz (Ashwaubenon); Drew Blackmun (Hudson)
1st Period 3:42 Zed Dietrich (Waukesha); Will Reabe (DePere)
2nd Period 16:52 Luke Davison (Notre Dame Academy); Brett Gruber (Appleton United)
3rd Period 9:09 Brett Gruber (Appleton United); Will Reabe (DePere)
3rd Period 9:34 Brett Gruber (Appleton United); Will Reabe (DePere)
Goaltender: James Schroeder (Appleton United) 26 saves

Upcoming Games:
August 29: vs. Madison U16 Elite WEHL (Eagles Nest Ice Arena – Verona)
September 3-6: @ St. Louis ’96 Amateur Blues Tournament
September 11-12 @ Chicago Mission / Chicago Young Americans
September 17-19 @ Compuware/Honeybaked Tournament

[BadgerBob82]

I have tried to read many of the posts, and it seems people want to change the age to encourage/reward holding kids out of school. My understanding is kids are eligible to start K if 5 years old prior to Sept 1. Anyone entering K as a 6 year old was "held out".

A kid born in July-Aug that went to school on-time, is not playing with classmates from school on most occasions. To use grade of school as the argument is one thing, but to encourage more parents holding their kids out of K for sport reasons is crazy.

But, in reading other posts, namely the D6 vs. MM rule, the craziest parents will do/say insane things. And will rationalize the insanity.

[JSR]

I'm confused. This whole argument seems to center on freshman in high school. So here is where my confusion comes in.

Minnesota is the "state of hockey", right?

Minnesotans passsion for youth and high school hockey rivals Texas's passion for football, right?

Money, while important, never seems to be the hinderance of hockey players and their parents when it comes to playing the sport, right?

Where I am from, most football, basketball, soccer, whatever teams in high school have a freshman team, a JV team and a Varsity team (and in small towns they usually have varsity and JV, in rare VERY small town occasions they have one team). I'm assuming (possibly incorrectly) that Minnesota also has such things.

So, in a hockey crazed state like MN, why do your high schools not have freshman, JV and Varsity teams? (And don't tell me it's the expense or ice time because we know that is bunk.)

Would this not solve this whole debate and allow ALOT more kids to play high school hockey? And isn't high school hockey alot better development than youth hockey, even bantams, if for no other reason than you are either playing or practing with your team 6 to even 7 days a week in high school where in bantams (atleast here) your only with your team 4 maybe 5 days a week. I'm missing something on why that is a bad idea?

[valleyball]

JSR

The debate centered around the regisitration deadline is not a real issue - the proposal has been put forth largely by one individual looking to create an advantage for his own kid who happens to have a June birthday.

Sports governing bodies realze that changing the cutoff date perpetuates relative age effects and redefines who is advantaged and who is disadvantaged by age. MH will not support June 1 because of this.

A more usefull debate might center on annual age grouping polices that eliminate or moderate RAEs

[Pioneerprideguy]

Valley,

Most changes begin with one person and support then develops. All along, you seem to be predominatly opposed to this change based on this one person.

I'll reiterate my position on this topic. We have a son who has a June b-day and entered K a yr later than most. This was in consultation with the school and us parents. Truth is, he just wasn't ready academically & socially. He is now entering into the 5th grade. As we look back, it was one of the best decisions we ever made as he is right where he should in regards to school and socially.

He plays baseball, football, and hockey. He is an average athlete who enjoys sports. Baseball & football are played with his classmates where hockey varies.

He has played C squirts for two yrs. He struggled his first year playing with older kids but last year did fine. This year, while most of his 5th grade classmates will be playing at the Squirt level, he will be sitting in a locker room potentially with 7th graders. There is a significant difference between a 5th grader & a 7th grader on many levels.

We weren't thinking about athletics when we discussed his starting date for K and nor are we looking to dominate a sport. We are just looking to keep our son in a group of his peers and hopefully keep him in the game of hockey longer.

[ilike2score]

Also consider those kids who start early. I have a nephew with an August Birthday who started school a year early. He is entering 9th grade as a First year Bantam and has eligiblity to play Bantams as a Tenth Grader due to Age. What do you do with these kids?

[valleyball]

Ppg-

Perceived personal gain cannot be the litmus test for making wholesale rule changes.

I understand that you favor June 1 because you believe it provides an advantage to your Son. However, MH is obligated to apply a higher standard.

Changing the cut-off date is not an effective strategy in age grouping. The effects of relative age simply shift from one group to another - the youngest players, regardless of how they are defined, remain disadvantaged both in terms of participation and attainment.

[BadgerBob82]

pioneer guy: You make the same argument for changing the date to June 1st that every June birthday parent makes. And the May 1st argument is the same for May birthdates. Thankfully, there are very few of your group.

To make one thing clear, the cut off date for entering school is Sept 1st. Anyone turning 5 prior to Sept 1st that does not enter school is considered held back or entering late. Those that enter as a 5 year old are on schedule, NOT entering early.

While it is increasingly common for over the top parents to withhold boys from entering as scheduled so they can compete against kids up to 15 months younger in sports based on grade, hockey uses the birthdate so it automatically levels the playing field.

I also know many decisions to withhold kids from school are based on the right reasons for success in school, but I hate the fact that those parents seem compelled to rewrite the rules for hockey so their kids can enjoy the same disadvantage in hockey of being the oldest kid.

As you said, there is a big difference between a 5th grader and a 7th grader. However, in your case, your kid is a 6th grader so he is right in the middle.

As a parent of a kid that will be a 10th grade bantam, I would like to see a straight birthyear like the rest of the world, or the use of Sept 1st.

As for those that withheld your kid from school, have fun being the only kid driving to school in 9th grade!

[welders]

Also consider those kids who start early. I have a nephew with an August Birthday who started school a year early. He is entering 9th grade as a First year Bantam and has eligiblity to play Bantams as a Tenth Grader due to Age. What do you do with these kids?

They should play with the grade they are in starting in mites. That way he would play with the same group every year, mites through high school. Pretty much all associations allow this. There is no reason to play bantams as a tenth grader, just as there is no reason to have to play varsity hockey as a ninth grader.

[welders]

Ppg-

Perceived personal gain cannot be the litmus test for making wholesale rule changes.

I contend that the "perceived personal gain" that you speak of is really the perceived gain of late start summer birthdate kids by the parents of early start kids. You call this a wholesale rule change. The July 1 cutoff already covers two thirds of all summer birthdates. If the number of June (50%) kids that delay is basically the same as the number for July (50%), how can you not allow June kids the same benefit. If, at some later date, May (<5%) is shown to be close to June and July numbers, there would be a valid argument for a change to May 1. This is very unlikely, however, because the natural break has proven itself to be June 1, the end of the school year.

[welders]

To make one thing clear, the cut off date for entering school is Sept 1st. Anyone turning 5 prior to Sept 1st that does not enter school is considered held back or entering late. Those that enter as a 5 year old are on schedule, NOT entering early.

Lets make a couple things really clear. There is no cutoff date for entering school. Just ask the people at your school who recommend child placement. If roughly 80% of August birthdate kids delay K entry until age six, that is now overwhelmingly the NORMAL start for August kids. At the same time, that makes the 20% that start K at age five entering EARLY. Come out of the dark ages and get used to it. As much as some people dislike it, it isn't going to change.

As for those that withheld your kid from school, have fun being the only kid driving to school in 9th grade!

Pretty lame statement. We are talking about summer birthdates here. Or, did you mean to say driving to summer school?

[welders]

JSR

The debate centered around the regisitration deadline is not a real issue - the proposal has been put forth largely by one individual looking to create an advantage for his own kid who happens to have a June birthday.

Sports governing bodies realze that changing the cutoff date perpetuates relative age effects and redefines who is advantaged and who is disadvantaged by age. MH will not support June 1 because of this.

A more usefull debate might center on annual age grouping polices that eliminate or moderate RAEs

Why does youth baseball, with a cutoff of May 1, have no ongoing discussions about what the cutoff date should be. They have it right. The late start summer kids play with their grade and the early start kids can and often do move up to play with their grade, if they choose to. Soccer cutoff is Aug. 1, and there is a call to move it back to accommodate summer birthdays. In all other team sports, participation is based on grade level. Youth hockey should be the same way.

[keepmeoutofit]

couple of reasons might be, hockeys a very fast contact sport. high schools dont have c or frosh squad.

as my mother use to say "just because other people are doing it doesnt make it right"

[greybeard58]

Minnesota state statutes
Subd. 10a. Kindergarten means a
program designed for pupils five years of age on September 1 of
the calendar year in which the school year commences that
prepares pupils to enter first grade the following school year.
A program designed for pupils younger than five years of age on
September 1 of the calendar year in which the school year
commences that prepares pupils to kindergarten the
following school year is a pre-kindergarten program.

Notwithstanding the provisions of any
law to the contrary, the conduct of all students under 21 years
of age attending a public secondary school is governed by a
single set of reasonable rules and regulations promulgated by
the school board. No person shall be admitted to any public
school (1) as a kindergarten pupil, unless the pupil is at least
five years of age on September 1 of the calendar year in which
the school year for which the pupil seeks admission commences;
or (2) as a 1st grade student, unless the pupil is at least six
years of age on September 1 of the calendar year in which the
school year for which the pupil seeks admission commences or has
completed kindergarten; except that any school board may
establish a policy for admission of selected pupils at an
earlier age.

[welders]

Minnesota state statutes
Subd. 10a. Kindergarten means a
program designed for pupils five years of age on September 1 of
the calendar year in which the school year commences that
prepares pupils to enter first grade the following school year.
A program designed for pupils younger than five years of age on
September 1 of the calendar year in which the school year
commences that prepares pupils to kindergarten the
following school year is a pre-kindergarten program.

Notwithstanding the provisions of any
law to the contrary, the conduct of all students under 21 years
of age attending a public secondary school is governed by a
single set of reasonable rules and regulations promulgated by
the school board. No person shall be admitted to any public
school (1) as a kindergarten pupil, unless the pupil is at least
five years of age on September 1 of the calendar year in which
the school year for which the pupil seeks admission commences;
or (2) as a 1st grade student, unless the pupil is at least six
years of age on September 1 of the calendar year in which the
school year for which the pupil seeks admission commences or has
completed kindergarten; except that any school board may
establish a policy for admission of selected pupils at an
earlier age.

This "definition" basically says that four year olds can't enter kindergarten without school board approval. I don't think anyone is arguing that point.
The statute below spells out what is actually required by law in MN.

120A.22 COMPULSORY INSTRUCTION.

Subd. 5.Ages and terms.(a) Every child between seven and 16 years of age must receive instruction. Every child under the age of seven who is enrolled in a half-day kindergarten, or a full-day kindergarten program on alternate days, or other kindergarten programs shall receive instruction. Except as provided in subdivision 6, a parent may withdraw a child under the age of seven from enrollment at any time.

Subd. 6.Children under seven.(a) Once a pupil under the age of seven is enrolled in kindergarten or a higher grade in a public school, the pupil is subject to the compulsory attendance provisions of this chapter and section 120A.34, unless the board of the district in which the pupil is enrolled has a policy that exempts children under seven from this subdivision.

[BadgerBob82]

Welder: I think we all understand that most kids enter K when they are 5 years old. Some kids are not mature enough and are held out of school for the right academic reasons.

A growing trend of over-the-top parents (primarily of boys) is to hold them out of starting school on time. These parents understand that having their son competing with kids 12-18 months younger can provide athletic prowess. We all get that and understand where you are coming from.

Thankfully, hockey uses birthdates for classifications. Therefore, the playing field is level for all.

Now that growing number of over-the-top parents want to change the birthdate in hockey to suit their decision to withhold their kid from school.

As said, MN Hockey should either follow the rest of the world and use birth years OR use Sept 1 as that is the school entry cut-off.

For those of us that sent our kids to school on time, all of your lame excuses and rationalization rings hollow.

[Pioneerprideguy]

I love how BB82 can speak for so many parents on why they begin their child's educational journey.

[BadgerBob82]

pioneerguy: I don't speak for why parents choose to hold their kids out of school. As I've said, I know many (and hope most) do it for academic reason, not for sports.

The mere fact there is talk of moving the hockey age to May 30th is because a growing number of parents hold not just August, July, but now June babies out of school. Heck, I have seen March and April kids held out. I get there are many academic reasons.

I resent people like you pushing to get the hockey rules changed to meet your little scenario of withholding your kid from school.

Rationalization takes many forms. But if you deny there are sick minded parents that do in fact withhold their kids from school for sports reasons, then you are naive. I would even go so far to say those of you that protest too loudly my accusations tip your hand on your intentions.

And furthermore, you have probably seen how well it works in the sports that go by grade, and now want to enjoy that in hockey. Yet, you make the claim it's just to play with his buddies from school. Yeah, right! I already heard all those claims for the residency rule change!

[dakotakid]

I will say it again, why not birth year like the rest of the world. Does Minn. hockey know better than everyone else.

[JSR]

Welder: I think we all understand that most kids enter K when they are 5 years old. Some kids are not mature enough and are held out of school for the right academic reasons.

A growing trend of over-the-top parents (primarily of boys) is to hold them out of starting school on time. These parents understand that having their son competing with kids 12-18 months younger can provide athletic prowess. We all get that and understand where you are coming from.

Thankfully, hockey uses birthdates for classifications. Therefore, the playing field is level for all.

Now that growing number of over-the-top parents want to change the birthdate in hockey to suit their decision to withhold their kid from school.

As said, MN Hockey should either follow the rest of the world and use birth years OR use Sept 1 as that is the school entry cut-off.

For those of us that sent our kids to school on time, all of your lame excuses and rationalization rings hollow.

I agree with BB82 here. Someone above said that 80% of August birthdates are being held back. 80% of August birthdates are not ready for kindegarten, really?????????? Common sense tells me that 80% of August birthdates likely are ready for kindegarten and that 20% seems a more logicial numebr for those truly being held back for the right reasons, thus ther eis a 60% marguin of unlikelies and those kids are being held back for other reasons than not being ready..... that's assuming the 80% number being reported is accurate.