Wisconsin Fire

[StillAnEagle]

And Johnny still doesn't care as much as you do.

I wish that were the case ... and I see a lot of people waiving that flag ... I don't know about anybody elses little Johnny, but my "little Johnny" cares a great deal about where he is playing hockey ... certainly a great deal more than I do ...

I believe you are in the minority. I'm willing to bet that most kids (not all) want to "stay home" and play with their friends. So when I make a blanket statement that Johnny doesn't care, this is implied.

[Quasar]

I wish that were the case ... and I see a lot of people waiving that flag ... I don't know about anybody elses little Johnny, but my "little Johnny" cares a great deal about where he is playing hockey ... certainly a great deal more than I do ...

I believe you are in the minority. I'm willing to bet that most kids (not all) want to "stay home" and play with their friends. So when I make a blanket statement that Johnny doesn't care, this is implied.

This whole discussion is about a few in the minority. Why is that such a difficult concept to understand ??

[SECoach]

Here's a good start ... If MAHA agreed to support 3 Metro area teams on a trial basis, the benefit would extend to approximatey 1500 Minnesota Hockey players across all divisons (A, B & C) just in the Metro area.

USA Midget 18U AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Midget 16U AAA - X 3 teams of 20

USA Bantam Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Bantam Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Peewee Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Peewee Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Squirt Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Squirt Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20

= 480 kids play Tier 1 Hockey
= 480 kids move from B to A
= 480 kids move from C to B

If the Metro area supports 4 teams and the rural areas support 1 or 2 these numbers can easily inflate, potentially benefitting up to 3,000 players/families directly and MAHA as a whole indirectly.

Okay Everyone ..What's wrong with this idea. Seems to me it could be a start.

Why, so people can go to work and say their kid is on a AAA team instead of an A team? On a B2 team instead of a C team?

I've yet to hear any solid reasoning why this would be a benefit to the kids except for ego reasons or reasons that more kids would get noticed and have a better chance to develop. In my not so humble opinion it's all hogwash. The ADM recomendation of very few HPCs at the OLDER levels only, makes some sense. I'm convinced that these rants are not being made by parents of Bantams but of Mites, Squirts, and a MAYBE Pee Wees. It's too soon, relax dad and he MIGHT be a star when he's older. I strongly believe that if parents act this way with their kids games, they end up flipping the high hard one instead of loving the game and becoming good at it.

[O-townClown]

Did you not talk about a kid being able to lead a lesser team? "It teaches leadership" I think it was?

Yes, a kid on a team that loses a player may develop better. That doesn't change the fact that there is resistance to this from some associations.

In order for change to occur, you'll need to convince those that don't want it or you'll have to overwhelm them so they are a minority.

I call 'em like I see 'em. I don't see change coming any time soon. Maybe I'm wrong. The NBA changed their draft rules and I didn't think that could happen.

[spin-o-rama]

Michigan was always lightyears ahead of MN in developing top NHL draft picks.. How and why?, because the had large #s of tier 1 kids getting great training year round. MN has only recently passed them with the explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. It's a fact, we are still held back.

I'm interested to see a link showing Michigan's dominance. Everytime I see numbers, MN has way better numbers. And the boom in AAA teams of still undraftable aged kids is linked to MN's comeback?

The numbers of MN draft picks is a recent phenomena (last 10 years). Michigan was always way ahead of us before that.... It was a tier1 thing.

I'd still like to see a link. MI claims Modano and Carson, MN is fine because they are enjoying Housley and Broten.
I still don't see how a pushup of AAA teams in the last 5 years helped MN draft results 10 years ago.

[Quasar]

["SECoach"]

Why, so people can go to work and say their kid is on a AAA team instead of an A team? On a B2 team instead of a C team?

If you really believe this statement you are far to cynical to be working with young kids... Think about it !!!

[Quasar]

I strongly believe that if parents act this way with their kids games, they end up flipping the high hard one instead of loving the game and becoming good at it.

You are right, see it all the time in all sports. The trick is to find opportunities for that kid who is driven. Who lives, eats and breaths it. All that the proponents of Tier 1 are saying is give is a chance to sink or swim on it's own. To circle it around I am pretty sure that my kid is not Tier 1 material. I have seen Tier 1 and, well, wow. Fun to watch for sure. I do know though that there are kids around who are Tier 1 material and I do think they need to have that chance someplace closer to home than Canada or Detroit if/when they can no longer (for what ever reason) get what they want or need from an association.

This is it in a nut shell. My kid might have been Tier 1 material. We'll never know.. It would be nice if his kid could see if he is!! And as the man say's.. Real Tier 1 is fun to watch.. No one can deny it is good hockey at the top levels, which is where we would expect Minnesota kids to be.

[spin-o-rama]

I strongly believe that if parents act this way with their kids games, they end up flipping the high hard one instead of loving the game and becoming good at it.

You are right, see it all the time in all sports. The trick is to find opportunities for that kid who is driven. Who lives, eats and breaths it. All that the proponents of Tier 1 are saying is give is a chance to sink or swim on it's own. To circle it around I am pretty sure that my kid is not Tier 1 material. I have seen Tier 1 and, well, wow. Fun to watch for sure. I do know though that there are kids around who are Tier 1 material and I do think they need to have that chance someplace closer to home than Canada or Detroit if/when they can no longer (for what ever reason) get what they want or need from an association.

What makes a kid Tier I material? Besides being an A player on a B team or having rich parents?
How good is too good? By what standard should a kid be dominating to prove A level association is holding him back?

[Quasar]

By the way ..

This has been a great discussion so far..

Thank you everyone for your civility !!

[O-townClown]

This is it in a nut shell. My kid might have been Tier 1 material. We'll never know.. It would be nice if his kid could see if he is!! And as the man say's.. Real Tier 1 is fun to watch.. No one can deny it is good hockey at the top levels, which is where we would expect Minnesota kids to be.

Don't the real Tier I players have plenty of opportunities to play at the appropriate competitive level during the unregulated off season?

If MAHA took over that I think people would have good reason to complain.

[Quasar]

You are right, see it all the time in all sports. The trick is to find opportunities for that kid who is driven. Who lives, eats and breaths it. All that the proponents of Tier 1 are saying is give is a chance to sink or swim on it's own. To circle it around I am pretty sure that my kid is not Tier 1 material. I have seen Tier 1 and, well, wow. Fun to watch for sure. I do know though that there are kids around who are Tier 1 material and I do think they need to have that chance someplace closer to home than Canada or Detroit if/when they can no longer (for what ever reason) get what they want or need from an association.

What makes a kid Tier I material? Besides being an A player on a B team or having rich parents?
How good is too good? By what standard should a kid be dominating to prove A level association is holding him back?

One example might be an association that goes to state because they have one or two kids that are clearly much better than the rest of the kids on the team. Perhaps those kids should have an opportunity to play with 13 or 14 kids of their talent level.. Just saying ..

[Quasar]

[quote]Don't the real Tier I players have plenty of opportunities to play at the appropriate competitive level during the unregulated off season?

Why would the real Tier 1 players want to play pretend Tier 1 ????

[observer]

I'm torn. I do believe we have the best of both worlds with our winter associations and summer AAA but... No question MM and the Fire raised the bar and have helped to develop some very nice players. Associations have had to improve their offerings.

Here's the US Select U17 team roster.

http://www.usahockey.com/Template_Usaho ... &id=290144

And U18s,

http://www.usahockey.com/Template_Usaho ... &id=290132

These are not the actual USNTDP rosters but those teams will include some of these players. No question the development model in other parts of the country is going well.

[MrBoDangles]

I'm interested to see a link showing Michigan's dominance. Everytime I see numbers, MN has way better numbers. And the boom in AAA teams of still undraftable aged kids is linked to MN's comeback?

The numbers of MN draft picks is a recent phenomena (last 10 years). Michigan was always way ahead of us before that.... It was a tier1 thing.

I'd still like to see a link. MI claims Modano and Carson, MN is fine because they are enjoying Housley and Broten.
I still don't see how a pushup of AAA teams in the last 5 years helped MN draft results 10 years ago.

MINNESOTA FIRST ROUNDERS

1982- 1999 6 FIRST ROUNDERS

2000 - 2010 18 FIRST ROUNDERS........ 14 SINCE...... 2OO5

I will try to get the (terrible) OLD Michigan comparisons.

AAA?

[O-townClown]

Why would the real Tier 1 players want to play pretend Tier 1 ????

So the Blades and Machine are pretend Tier I? It's the same level in the unregulated season. If that makes it make-believe to you we see it differently.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

And U18s,

http://www.usahockey.com/Template_Usaho ... &id=290132

Interesting ... how does the Canadian kid make the US National Team?

Keegan Lowe, son of Canadian Olympians Karen Percy and Kevin Lowe (Edmonton Oilers President and former player) , all of whom are Canadians and reside in Alberta, Canada.

[O-townClown]

Here's the US Select U17 team roster.

http://www.usahockey.com/Template_Usaho ... &id=290144

And U18s,

http://www.usahockey.com/Template_Usaho ... &id=290132

One thing to remember when looking at Select or NTDP rosters. USA Hockey has an obligation to put its best players on these teams, but it also has an obligation to reach out to players that need the opportunity.

Who has more to "gain" by going to Ann Arbor? Seth Jones from Dallas or a kid from White Bear. Rosters of NTDP have recently included kids from Idaho, Florida, Texas, Georgia, Tennessee, Nevada, and Oklahoma.

A few things are at work. At that age, often those kids are going to be moving on for hockey anyway and the USA Hockey option isn't a hardship. Twin City, and even outstate kids, can play HS hockey and the Elite League and don't have to move.

They aren't as void of competition like some of the Sun Belt kids.

[observer]

Can you say, Brett Hull?

[Quasar]

Why would the real Tier 1 players want to play pretend Tier 1 ????

So the Blades and Machine are pretend Tier I? It's the same level in the unregulated season. If that makes it make-believe to you we see it differently.

OTC... I'm sure that you know the difference between an apple and an orange. If not ... your not nearly as smart as I think you are. I believe a previous post made the point that MM, the Blades, and many others would be in trouble if Tier 1 came to Minnesota. They are not the real thing.. We all know that.. and so do you!!

[O-townClown]

OTC... I'm sure that you know the difference between an apple and an orange. If not ... your not nearly as smart as I think you are. I believe a previous post made the point that MM, the Blades, and many others would be in trouble if Tier 1 came to Minnesota. They are not the real thing.. We all know that.. and so do you!!

They are not USA Hockey registered Tier I teams. Clearly they play at that level.

Someone will say there needs to be a choice so kids can get out of bad situations. Then someone will say top players need to play against other top players. Then someone else says Minnesota kids should compete for nationals.

I understand the difference. If someone is saying top players in Minnesota have no chance to play at a high level during their youth hockey days they are wrong.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Someone will say there needs to be a choice so kids can get out of bad situations. Then someone will say top players need to play against other top players. Then someone else says Minnesota kids should compete for nationals.

I understand the difference. If someone is saying top players in Minnesota have no chance to play at a high level during their youth hockey days they are wrong.

Right. Now we just have to figure out how to make that a year round choice without leaving home or writing a check for 30K.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

... and by we I mean those of us who support it ...

[Quasar]

OTC... I'm sure that you know the difference between an apple and an orange. If not ... your not nearly as smart as I think you are. I believe a previous post made the point that MM, the Blades, and many others would be in trouble if Tier 1 came to Minnesota. They are not the real thing.. We all know that.. and so do you!!

They are not USA Hockey registered Tier I teams. Clearly they play at that level.

Someone will say there needs to be a choice so kids can get out of bad situations. Then someone will say top players need to play against other top players. Then someone else says Minnesota kids should compete for nationals.

I understand the difference. If someone is saying top players in Minnesota have no chance to play at a high level during their youth hockey days they are wrong.

It's called a difference of opinion.... What I am saying (I don't speak for others) is that they (top Players) should be able to play with their peers in the top winter competition in the US and Canada. Not some watered down summer program.

[Quasar]

OTC .. Here is something for you to think about.

Why are so many Machine and Blades kids playing for the Fire.... The number is eight

Got a glib answer for that one ?? Oh .. and why is Bernie coaching the 98's??

Do you actually know anything about this subject??

[SECoach]

["SECoach"]

Why, so people can go to work and say their kid is on a AAA team instead of an A team? On a B2 team instead of a C team?

If you really believe this statement you are far to cynical to be working with young kids... Think about it !!!

Yes, I may be cynical. That comes not from watching a few kids that were held back, but a couple decades of watching young boys and girls with the potential to make the most of their talents, tainted by parents that think there is a better system for my kid. I don't mean to be smug, but the kids that have parents that are always searching for a way to get ahead of the current system, rather than letting them develop their natural god given talents, more often than not, end up failing.

I'll agree that to the parents of "current" future superstars I may sound cynical. This comes from 25 years of watching over zealous parents run past the dreams of their kid so that by the time they reach high school they are more apt to leave the game than excel. They may still play, but they have left the game. Kids that are the age you are debating over are not able to say "dad, will you relax for Christ's sake". They wait until they are about 13 to 16 and then they say, i have really lost interest.

Bottom line? Tell me who in this debate is the parent of a Bantam player. I'll line up for the shots. All of you that want to change the system for your mite or squirt will get a real eye opening after you fight this fight for a few years. The players that should get noticed do. The players that should develop into D1 and NHL players do. No matter where they play. All you are doing is making your kids miserable. Wait until they are old enough to verbalize it.

All efforts to bring "high level" hockey to Minnesota are simply efforts to patronize the loud mouths that dont get it. The high level hockey is already here. Your kid just isnt in it.

I dont' blame this little tiny crowd that says our system sucks and the kids are being held back. The wisdom and refelection will come later. I just believe that in 8 years they will be sitting with a cup of bad coffee watching their son play Junior Gold wishing they would have gone about things differently.

By the way, happy to be back. I can only sit on the sidelines for so long.