Wisconsin Fire

[O-townClown]

The Tier 1 AAA system is going to happen in the state of MN. I think that if MN Hockey wants to have control over it they need to start to lead it out of the box. If not they are going to get ran over as it comes to be.

Agreed completely that it would need to be heavily regulated to work well, not sure from afar if it is "going to happen" in the near future. Jancze says the same; there is a lot of control needed to launch the blueprint for Tier I club hockey under Minnesota Hockey.

I applaud you. You are at least explaining the impact this move has on others. As I've said many times, saying you need Tier I hockey to be happy, getting pouty when asked questions, and throwing allegations that others are ignorant if they don't agree with you is not an actionable plan.

Done in the manner some have described, Minnesota can have its own "self-contained" Tier I league with less and less of the travel to Chicago, Detroit, and Toronto. That's where a lot of Tier I hockey exists today.

For anyone that thinks Tier I is only for the super-elite, no. Look no further than Massachusetts to see why I say that. There are too many teams registered at Tier I (I think, I get confused by their "AAA Elite" and "AAA" team names) for it to be either super or elite.

Some Tier I teams qualify for nationals and get waxed by the strongest programs. When you look at Detroit (five teams), St. Louis (just one), and some other areas it is that.

If Minnesota opened up Tier I and let anyone apply they could conceivably have more than 20 programs in the first year. It would be a free-for-all. I think that's what thay are trying to avoid.

[Quasar]

And it kills you that you're not the one in control.

At least you get to wear shorts to the rink year round.

Wow HD41 you hit the nail on the head... It's year around summer hockey ..No wonder he knows so much !!

[StillAnEagle]

You made my point. The Fire. The only way to get rid of the Fire was to regulate them out of business. The model works. Tell SSM it is broken. Tell MM it is broken. Go tell Victory Honda it is broken (while you are there say hi to the MN kids who are starting to migrate that way). It works. You do not have to pay for it, those of us who want to try it will. All you need to do is to let the people who want to have a shot at it have their shot at it. You can even site back and snipe and whine about how good the "good old days were" if you want, just get out of the way.

Let's just talk about HS for a minute here. Are you saying that SSM's team(s - they have 2) are better than all MN HS teams as a whole?. That's a tough sell. I know they're good, but I don't think they'd go undefeated in our league. They're like the Yankies with hockey all stars from other states and other countries. They only beat Holy A's 5-4 and Benilde 4-2. To think that we have 5 HS teams that are comprised solely of kids from their respective cities (EP, Edina, Tonka, Wayzata, Blaine, even more) that could and would beat them doesn't put a feather in their Tier 1 cap. As far as Victory Honda goes, how many MN kids besides the Lakeville North kid will be on their roster next year? As far as Russell Stover and the Rampage, they're getting kids from small/medium size programs that probably wouldn't make much of a roar in the MSHSL anyway....

[O-townClown]

High School hockey in New England has become striated or tiered.

Public schools rarely have top players. The best either go to the Catholic league or the Prep School route. Those levels have strengthened at the expense of the traditional HS.

We can go 'round and 'round on whether this is good or bad, but by letting the best players play against the best competition there is no question the majority then lose that opportunity/birthright/privilege.

I haven't thought this all through, but I think there are a lot of similarities to the Minnesota youth scene and the impact clubs would have on associations.

[O-townClown]

I am pretty sure that most scouts have no clue as to where Silver Bay is. I know that OTC doesn't. How do you as that one good kid get a chance? In this system you don't.

I'm very familiar with where Silver Bay is and the notion that a bona fide prospect from there will go unnoticed is pure fallacy.

Are you talking HS or youth? Again, it seems the discussion is one thing (youth hockey) and then a problem mentioned involves another (high school).

Stud-from-the-sticks will play HS Varsity as a 9th grader and - if he really is too big of a fish for the small pond - he'll go play elsewhere when he's older. Tier I Junior hockey (the USHL) seems to be a very good place for this kid.

Isn't that what Seth Ambroz did? And others? The notion that I coulda been a contendah if I weren't from Embarrass is something I don't agree with.

Using Tier I as a solution to the star-player-in-a-remote-area issue is the same in Minnesota as it is in Florida and the same as it is with USA Hockey's High Performance Club model. You put those teams where the players are and you still don't include the ones that were theoretically helped.

How much progress have people made in Minnesota on the HPCs? I know it is hard because USA Hockey isn't exactly committed to them, but a workable path seems to be avoiding creation of Tier I teams for now and working with MAHA to create an HPC that has USA Hockey's blessing.

Down here I think they are a dead issue.

[StillAnEagle]

High School hockey in New England has become striated or tiered.

Public schools rarely have top players. The best either go to the Catholic league or the Prep School route. Those levels have strengthened at the expense of the traditional HS.

We can go 'round and 'round on whether this is good or bad, but by letting the best players play against the best competition there is no question the majority then lose that opportunity/birthright/privilege.

I haven't thought this all through, but I think there are a lot of similarities to the Minnesota youth scene and the impact clubs would have on associations.

O-town. I started out being the devil's advocate. But in thinking about this and arguing both sides, I'm finding myself with you. MN hockey in it's current model competes and wins at the highest levels and puts out a great amount of talent to the pros. At this point I don't think it would be worth it to change it up just so the 1 kid from New Ulm can play on a better team. If the parents care that much, then move a few miles closer to the cities and play for Eden Prairie. I'm willing to bet Johnny doesn't care as much as they do anyway.

[SECoach]

Tier 1 is not a so called "Pipe Dream" in the rest of the world. Only a holier than thou Minnesotan would even make that statement. Of course it will be difficult. No one who is serious about Tier 1 says otherwise.

Everyone on your side of the discussion keeps bringing it back to the Associations. It's about choice for a few. The many are already well in hand!!

Some people feel that Tier I is for the super elite. Some are arguing it is the cure for A bubble kids (an A2 level?). Some believe it will just be used by the small town stars. Some believe it will be fairly affordable. Some think it will allow for extensive travel. It can't be all the above. It is a pipedream to think that Tier I is a magical solution for all these conflicting wants.

Tier 1 can and would be all of those things and none of those things, at the same time. NOBODY has said it will be cheap, to the contrary I think that all agree that it will cost some money. I say again, so what if I want to spend my money to give my kid a chance? I am not asking MN Hockey or you to foot my bill, I will.

It is a perfect place foe that bubble A kid and for that Super Star small town kid to go to. It can't get more perfect. They can go to a team like Victory Honda, Little Caesars, The Orange County Selects, the Ottawa Riot, to overcome what they are not going to get at home. If you are the one good player for Silver Bay's B team are you going to get noticed? They do not have an A team, they do not go to the regional or state play offs for the B teams, I am pretty sure that most scouts have no clue as to where Silver Bay is. I know that OTC doesn't. How do you as that one good kid get a chance? In this system you don't. In a Tier 1 system you go tryout for the Duluth Polar Ice team, the Friendly Fridley team, the Leanne Chins (spelled wrong) team, the Moorhead Auto-body team and get out there, get good coaching and get noticed. Your chances just went from nonexistent to pretty realistic. Yes it is gonna cost you some money, yes you are gonna travel, yes you are gonna have to compete with some very high power kids but do you want to look at your dad in 10 years and say "I wish I would have gone to Canada, Detroit, Chicago, or even maybe Florida"? I don't think so.

MN hockey can control it by controlling the teams "franchise", they can make money through it by having "franchise fees" (you know they can make money this way as I have not yet heard of Bernie turning his rink into a refrigerated beer storage facility or standing out along 35W with a Will Work for Food sign) and by limiting the number of teams they have and their locations. Sure the associations are going to lose kids, how many of them will get better when they look in a mirror and wonder why upper B and lower A kids are trying out for Tier 1 and clean up their acts which will benefit everybody. I know that Tier 1 is supposed to be an elite level, but I think that with the levels of kids in this state that we are talking about, getting them good coaching and good exposure will advance them even more. If MN hockey does not do something like this, and keeps putting their heads in the sand and drinking the Koolade (like OTC) for a system that was great 5 years ago but has not evolved they are going to have to play some major catchup. Funny thing about being the second dog in a dog team is that the second dog's view never changes (he gets to look at the back end of the first dog) so I hope that MN Hockey can evolve, change and come into this age so that they don't have to sit around looking at MI's, IL's, MA's or somebody else's back end. You know that WI is going to try it, ND is going to have a shot at it, IA will I mean why not if you can play hockey in Florida you can in Iowa which is way closer to the source so the big question here is "does MN Hockey want to control it, guide it and lead it or do they want to wind up looking up Iowa's backside as they try to chase them to get caught up?".

Thanks for finally letting the cat out of the bag. It's about getting noticed? About getting a chance? About getting exposure?

If there is anywhere in the country a kid on the Silver Bay B team can get noticed, it's here, under the present system. Pretty sure scouts don't know where Silver Bay is? C'mon. If he's there, they will be too.

You complain about a kid not having a chance to make Advanced 15 under this system. Let's be honest. Not all, but the vast majority of people that feel Tier I in Minnesota is so desparately needed either cannot accept that their kid has average talent, and except for very rare cases, deserves to be on the team he made, or are under the delusion that their superstar will not get noticed if they play for their hometown. Minnesota is not filled with talented players that do not get noticed. If your kid is 9, I'd relax for a bit because he won't get "noticed" playing for the Fire, Victory Honda, or Belle Tire either.

The bottom line is the demands for Tier I are primarily about dad's ego and his desire to wear an elite jacket to the rink and probably to work. Let's not forget the control part either. The previous poster that stated it is a control issue is right. It's about those that can't stand to be controlled when it's really about an organization "managing" rather than "contolling".

The complaints about the politically corrupt associations? They get tagged this when Dad sees his kid as better than he really is. Must have been a screw job. Some, but very few exceptions.

Enjoy the time your kid plays. It will be over before you know it, and you will have spent the whole time in a furious fog.

[O-townClown]

But in thinking about this and arguing both sides,

I can argue both sides too. There are merits to making change for the model. Kinda wonder when it's presented in the best light if you are seeing a true picture.

[MrBoDangles]

No.... The off season teams are exactly that. Summer teams for all.

Most of the summer kids would not be able to make the Tier 1 teams.
Everyone playing summer hockey knows this.!!

The parents know it, and the kids know it. So should anyone interested enough to look into it.

Hope and Change - I'll take mine back please... that's what this whole thing is turning into. Most people that are getting on this "let's make MN a tier 1 state" bandwagon don't really know what they're asking for. And if it happens (and I say if because there are many people in this thread and on both sides that are "in the know") we'll be wishing for the days of old.

We already had/have tier 1 in MN. We just had to call it a Wisconsin team or go to a school to play it. It NEVER hurt MN Hockey, only improved it. The programs have helped to develop some awesome MN talent in recent years. Michigan was always lightyears ahead of MN in developing top NHL draft picks.. How and why?, because the had large #s of tier 1 kids getting great training year round. MN has only recently passed them with the explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. It's a fact, we are still held back.

Clown only had one reason to be happy about his Florida Hockey situation...... and now he's afraid of losing it.

[spin-o-rama]

Tier 1 is not a so called "Pipe Dream" in the rest of the world. Only a holier than thou Minnesotan would even make that statement. Of course it will be difficult. No one who is serious about Tier 1 says otherwise.

Everyone on your side of the discussion keeps bringing it back to the Associations. It's about choice for a few. The many are already well in hand!!

Some people feel that Tier I is for the super elite. Some are arguing it is the cure for A bubble kids (an A2 level?). Some believe it will just be used by the small town stars. Some believe it will be fairly affordable. Some think it will allow for extensive travel. It can't be all the above. It is a pipedream to think that Tier I is a magical solution for all these conflicting wants.

Tier 1 can and would be all of those things and none of those things, at the same time. NOBODY has said it will be cheap, to the contrary I think that all agree that it will cost some money. I say again, so what if I want to spend my money to give my kid a chance? I am not asking MN Hockey or you to foot my bill, I will.

Tier 1 is not a cure all, it is not magical, it is not a guarantee of anything.

How many people use your login?

[spin-o-rama]

Michigan was always lightyears ahead of MN in developing top NHL draft picks.. How and why?, because the had large #s of tier 1 kids getting great training year round. MN has only recently passed them with the explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. It's a fact, we are still held back.

I'm interested to see a link showing Michigan's dominance. Everytime I see numbers, MN has way better numbers. And the boom in AAA teams of still undraftable aged kids is linked to MN's comeback?

[StillAnEagle]

You made my point. The Fire. The only way to get rid of the Fire was to regulate them out of business. The model works. Tell SSM it is broken. Tell MM it is broken. Go tell Victory Honda it is broken (while you are there say hi to the MN kids who are starting to migrate that way). It works. You do not have to pay for it, those of us who want to try it will. All you need to do is to let the people who want to have a shot at it have their shot at it. You can even site back and snipe and whine about how good the "good old days were" if you want, just get out of the way.

Let's just talk about HS for a minute here. Are you saying that SSM's team(s - they have 2) are better than all MN HS teams as a whole?. That's a tough sell. I know they're good, but I don't think they'd go undefeated in our league. They're like the Yankies with hockey all stars from other states and other countries. They only beat Holy A's 5-4 and Benilde 4-2. To think that we have 5 HS teams that are comprised solely of kids from their respective cities (EP, Edina, Tonka, Wayzata, Blaine, even more) that could and would beat them doesn't put a feather in their Tier 1 cap. As far as Victory Honda goes, how many MN kids besides the Lakeville North kid will be on their roster next year? As far as Russell Stover and the Rampage, they're getting kids from small/medium size programs that probably wouldn't make much of a roar in the MSHSL anyway....

But at least they get a chance to make a roar. Even if it turns out to be a quiet little meow in the back of a barn hay loft full of hay at least they had a shot at roaring. Sure, Edina can be SSM, so can all of the big high schools.

The problem is that this is for YOUTH hockey, not high school hockey.

Your assumptions that all things surrounding youth hockey need to be ran through high school hockey are (in my opinion) a huge part of the problem. Let the high school hockey people deal with it, USA Hockey is not for high school hockey. Let the MN High School league deal with high school stuff. I do not care what the high school people think about the fact that some of the better players are going to get showcased and then will go onto play someplace else, I care that the youth hockey players of MN get every chance to be their best. Does the fact some high school coaches in some towns look at the youth program as their own personal hunting grounds mean that youth hockey has to go along with it? NO, if that were the case then all kids in all town will be required to play hockey from day 1. NO decision at any level can or will be made without the expressed written consent of the high school coaching staff. At no time will any youth hockey coach do anything other than what the high school coach wants him to do, period. Great, works for me, I like it, sounds like a plan................ Now, lets put down the crack pipe and think about this. Your average high school team takes 15 kids for varsity and 15 for junior varsity. Why in the world do we as youth hockey people who have more kids at some levels in some programs than there are high school hockey players in some districts even care about what they think? The reason is because if you cross the high school coach and his staff your kid is not gonna play high school hockey. At least not in your town. >>>>>>> IDEA<<<<<<< how about we quit worrying about high school hockey and their issues and focus on our kids and their issues. Association hockey is not another way of spelling personal hunting grounds for high school hockey coaches. If we provide our youths with routes to "the big show" we do not need the high school coaches. Scary? yes. About time? yes. do-able, totally. I mean really, do you think that adding a few Tier 1 teams to the state is going to kill off or adversely affect high school hockey in this state? If so, high school hockey is in huge trouble now............ Grow a pair and stop worrying about the high school coaches and their issues, worry about your kid and his/her issue will ya?

First of all, part of the problem here is that people are more concerned with how their insult sounds than how sound their argument is. You can stop with the "grow a pair" you "crack addict" insults, ok? I get ya, I hear ya with the HS stuff. So then let's take it down to Bantams. I still think the top 5 Bantam teams in the state can compete with SSM's Bantam team. And no matter where you're from, if you care enough you can move to one of these communities - And Johnny still doesn't care as much as you do.

[Quasar]

I don't know about anyone else, but I can assure you that I Don't !!!

[O-townClown]

I'm interested to see a link showing Michigan's dominance. Everytime I see numbers, MN has way better numbers. And the boom in AAA teams of still undraftable aged kids is linked to MN's comeback?

Spinner, he's probably talking about the guys like Jimmy Carson or Mike Modano. When they came out of Detroit we couldn't point to our own homegrown Minnesotans at that level.

The question is this, and you can answer however you want:

Does the fact that Michigan may have a better model for the top 1% of the top 1% mean Minnesota should make changes?

There's another 99.99% out there.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

And Johnny still doesn't care as much as you do.

I wish that were the case ... and I see a lot of people waiving that flag ... I don't know about anybody elses little Johnny, but my "little Johnny" cares a great deal about where he is playing hockey ... certainly a great deal more than I do ...

[Quasar]

And Johnny still doesn't care as much as you do.

Maybe a couple of them do. And I guess that's the point.

[MrBoDangles]

Michigan was always lightyears ahead of MN in developing top NHL draft picks.. How and why?, because the had large #s of tier 1 kids getting great training year round. MN has only recently passed them with the explosion of AAA Summer Hockey. It's a fact, we are still held back.

I'm interested to see a link showing Michigan's dominance. Everytime I see numbers, MN has way better numbers. And the boom in AAA teams of still undraftable aged kids is linked to MN's comeback?

The numbers of MN draft picks is a recent phenomena (last 10 years). Michigan was always way ahead of us before that.... It was a tier1 thing.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

The question is this, and you can answer however you want:

Does the fact that Michigan may have a better model for the top 1% of the top 1% mean Minnesota should make changes?

There's another 99.99% out there.

Here's a better question:

If we can make changes for the top 5% of Minnesota hockey players that would make them more competitive with the top 5% of other communities - AND - we can do all of that while enhancing the other 95% of the Minnesota Hockey community ... then shouldn't we be interested in that?

[O-townClown]

Here's a better question:

If we can make changes for the top 5% of Minnesota hockey players that would make them more competitive with the top 5% of other communities - AND - we can do all of that while enhancing the other 95% of the Minnesota Hockey community ... then shouldn't we be interested in that?

Absolutely.

Figure that out and you are on to something.

[Quasar]

The question is this, and you can answer however you want:

Does the fact that Michigan may have a better model for the top 1% of the top 1% mean Minnesota should make changes?

There's another 99.99% out there.

Here's a better question:

If we can make changes for the top 5% of Minnesota hockey players that would make them more competitive with the top 5% of other communities - AND - we can do all of that while enhancing the other 95% of the Minnesota Hockey community ... then shouldn't we be interested in that?

Sounds good to me !!

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Here's a better question:

If we can make changes for the top 5% of Minnesota hockey players that would make them more competitive with the top 5% of other communities - AND - we can do all of that while enhancing the other 95% of the Minnesota Hockey community ... then shouldn't we be interested in that?

Absolutely.

Figure that out and you are on to something.

Here's a good start ... If MAHA agreed to support 3 Metro area teams on a trial basis, the benefit would extend to approximatey 1500 Minnesota Hockey players across all divisons (A, B & C) just in the Metro area.

USA Midget 18U AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Midget 16U AAA - X 3 teams of 20

USA Bantam Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Bantam Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Peewee Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Peewee Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Squirt Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Squirt Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20

= 480 kids play Tier 1 Hockey
= 480 kids move from B to A
= 480 kids move from C to B

If the Metro area supports 4 teams and the rural areas support 1 or 2 these numbers can easily inflate, potentially benefitting up to 3,000 players/families directly and MAHA as a whole indirectly.

[MrBoDangles]

I'm interested to see a link showing Michigan's dominance. Everytime I see numbers, MN has way better numbers. And the boom in AAA teams of still undraftable aged kids is linked to MN's comeback?

Spinner, he's probably talking about the guys like Jimmy Carson or Mike Modano. When they came out of Detroit we couldn't point to our own homegrown Minnesotans at that level.

The question is this, and you can answer however you want:

Does the fact that Michigan may have a better model for the top 1% of the top 1% mean Minnesota should make changes?

There's another 99.99% out there.

Micigan was WAY ahead....... MN had many, many, lean years.

SO YOU'RE SAYING TIER 1 IS A BETTER MODEL?

You better zip it! Digging your own hole.

[Quasar]

Absolutely.

Figure that out and you are on to something.

Here's a good start ... If MAHA agreed to support 3 Metro area teams on a trial basis, the benefit would extend to approximatey 1500 Minnesota Hockey players across all divisons (A, B & C) just in the Metro area.

USA Midget 18U AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Midget 16U AAA - X 3 teams of 20

USA Bantam Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Bantam Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Peewee Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Peewee Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Squirt Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Squirt Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20

= 480 kids play Tier 1 Hockey
= 480 kids move from B to A
= 480 kids move from C to B

If the Metro area supports 4 teams and the rural areas support 1 or 2 these numbers can easily inflate, potentially benefitting up to 3,000 players/families directly and MAHA as a whole indirectly.

Okay Everyone ..What's wrong with this idea. Seems to me it could be a start.

[O-townClown]

Okay Everyone ..What's wrong with this idea. Seems to me it could be a start.

Well, for starters there will be many associations that don't want to lose players to this. It affects the options that they are able to offer to the families that stay.

[MrBoDangles]

Okay Everyone ..What's wrong with this idea. Seems to me it could be a start.

Well, for starters there will be many associations that don't want to lose players to this. It affects the options that they are able to offer to the families that stay.

Did you not talk about a kid being able to lead a lesser team? "It teaches leadership" I think it was?