Wisconsin Fire

[observer]

You mean you can't think of a single instance in your association where a kid that clearly deserved to make an A team did not?

GOYBS,

This happens frequently but it's not a bad thing. First, if a player is at the wrong lower level he should absolutely dominate play. 2-3 goals a game. Often fussers will find the supposed slighted player isn't even the top player on the B1 team as the season rolls along.

It teaches the player and the parents an important lesson that they may need to work a little harder next year.

And, it benefits the player to be the top player on B1 instead of the weakest on A. With a decent coach, and supportive parents, that player could have the most fun and successful season of his life. Many will tell you that B1 is a better experience anyways. Generally, the players, and their parents, are all nicer people.

And, let's not forget, leadership. Learn to be a leader by setting the example of a positive, hardworking attitude that all the parents and coaches notice and consider that maybe they did make a mistake and they correct it the following year. Sulk and fuss and you're guaranteed to be back at B1 next season too.

Another consideration is is the player truely A? A at Wayzata, Edina, Woodbury or on the bubble at Andover. The 15th A skater at a mid size or small association isn't an A player at Maple Grove. So, don't worry about it. He's not really A anyways.

[Quasar]

[quote]It is the exact opposite of greener grass, it is the fact that he is not in control and has to deal with parents and players who do not want to shut up and fall into line. Look at his posts, he wants to be able to tell them "it is my way or the highway".

Or perhaps "Let them eat cake"

[Quasar]

The Tier 1 AAA system is going to happen in the state of MN. I think that if MN Hockey wants to have control over it they need to start to lead it out of the box. If not they are going to get ran over as it comes to be. Back in the old days you could get away with the stuff that goes on in association hockey because nobody knew any better and nobody else (to a large degree) played hockey. Look at the post a little bit back that said his kid said "I wish I would have gone to Canada". When that was your choice that was it. Now kids are going to start to go to places and teams in other states. Think that the people in Detroit for Victory Honda or Little Ceasars or etc are gonna tell some kid who wants to come over there to tryout no? I am sure the West Dundee Leafs have a sign up right now saying Minnysnowtons need not apply. Not a chance, they will help him find a host family (they might already do, I don't know) to get him to come over. It is nothing in this day and age of travel, the internet and etc for kids to do things like that. You can live in Detroit, go to school via the MN Connections Academy and play high level hockey. It will happen. Look at the list of kids on the high school forum who are leaving to go places and ask yourself who is next, Bantam age kids are, that is who. There has to be Tier 1 system in MN to preserve the association model by providing an outlet for those kids who are not served by it.

If you are spectacular you make the A team, MN hockey works. If you are bad and don't care, you make a C team or B2 team and MN hockey works. If you are that bubble kid who is not connected enough to over come the corruption within the association model you land on a B team rather than an A team. Go to the Blades, the Velocity, the Legacy, even Team Reebok and what is the first thing that they ask.......... who did he play for and what level? Tell Bernie your kid played for a PeeWee B team last year and that he wants a shot at a Machine team. Good luck with that. How many kids on B teams got nominated to the Advanced 15 tryout system........... none, that is all done through the Bantam A team. If you don't make the 15s you are not gonna make the 16s or 17s. Your chances of moving up in the world are less.

The only way that MN Hockey will be able to save this model (on a very long term basis) is for them to clean up the associations and start to look at themselves as youth hockey groups and NOT high school feeder programs and for the coaching and team selections at the PeeWee and Bantam B levels to become better. Your A teams coaches are paid professionals. They apply for jobs, run systems, develop kids and etc. They fail, they don't get hired back. They want to get hired back. The B teams coaches are mostly parents or newer, less experienced coaches. Not a bad deal and I am very very glad that they step up to do it but they are not (generally speaking across the boards) as good at it is the professionals are. Your A kids get the advantage of A coaching which helps them excel. Your B kids get B coaching which does not help them develop and then they fall farther behind so next year they are way behind those kids who were on the A team. Even two relatively even bubble kids who get split differently will be miles apart next fall. The parents of those upper "nonconnected" B kids are the ones who are going to be on the move. The lower level A kids who make the A team but who wind up sitting all the time or getting their one shift per period are also going to be on the move. If you had a program who had good coaching you could take those kids, coach them up, turn them into a team and clean house when you took them on the road. As a result those kids are going to get drafted by everybody from the NAHL to the USHL to the NHL. I think I just exposed both the Fire's and MM's business/hockey models right there...... sorry.

Sure it is expensive, so what? If a parent has the money to spend they will. Association hockey is not cheap either so we are not talking about something like a free public high school education vs spending 35K plus at SSM. The ice fees, coaching fees, travel fees, and etc from those mid level kids are what make it possible to keep the costs down enough to have the large numbers of kids in hockey and who also offset the costs associated with an A team, lose that money and it is going to hurt association hockey in a big way.

Anyone that is truly interested in where Minnesota hockey is going should read this post!! It's the best analysis yet!!

[play4fun]

The Tier 1 AAA system is going to happen in the state of MN. I think that if MN Hockey wants to have control over it they need to start to lead it out of the box. If not they are going to get ran over as it comes to be. Back in the old days you could get away with the stuff that goes on in association hockey because nobody knew any better and nobody else (to a large degree) played hockey. Look at the post a little bit back that said his kid said "I wish I would have gone to Canada". When that was your choice that was it. Now kids are going to start to go to places and teams in other states. Think that the people in Detroit for Victory Honda or Little Ceasars or etc are gonna tell some kid who wants to come over there to tryout no? I am sure the West Dundee Leafs have a sign up right now saying Minnysnowtons need not apply. Not a chance, they will help him find a host family (they might already do, I don't know) to get him to come over. It is nothing in this day and age of travel, the internet and etc for kids to do things like that. You can live in Detroit, go to school via the MN Connections Academy and play high level hockey. It will happen. Look at the list of kids on the high school forum who are leaving to go places and ask yourself who is next, Bantam age kids are, that is who. There has to be Tier 1 system in MN to preserve the association model by providing an outlet for those kids who are not served by it.

If you are spectacular you make the A team, MN hockey works. If you are bad and don't care, you make a C team or B2 team and MN hockey works. If you are that bubble kid who is not connected enough to over come the corruption within the association model you land on a B team rather than an A team. Go to the Blades, the Velocity, the Legacy, even Team Reebok and what is the first thing that they ask.......... who did he play for and what level? Tell Bernie your kid played for a PeeWee B team last year and that he wants a shot at a Machine team. Good luck with that. How many kids on B teams got nominated to the Advanced 15 tryout system........... none, that is all done through the Bantam A team. If you don't make the 15s you are not gonna make the 16s or 17s. Your chances of moving up in the world are less.

The only way that MN Hockey will be able to save this model (on a very long term basis) is for them to clean up the associations and start to look at themselves as youth hockey groups and NOT high school feeder programs and for the coaching and team selections at the PeeWee and Bantam B levels to become better. Your A teams coaches are paid professionals. They apply for jobs, run systems, develop kids and etc. They fail, they don't get hired back. They want to get hired back. The B teams coaches are mostly parents or newer, less experienced coaches. Not a bad deal and I am very very glad that they step up to do it but they are not (generally speaking across the boards) as good at it is the professionals are. Your A kids get the advantage of A coaching which helps them excel. Your B kids get B coaching which does not help them develop and then they fall farther behind so next year they are way behind those kids who were on the A team. Even two relatively even bubble kids who get split differently will be miles apart next fall. The parents of those upper "nonconnected" B kids are the ones who are going to be on the move. The lower level A kids who make the A team but who wind up sitting all the time or getting their one shift per period are also going to be on the move. If you had a program who had good coaching you could take those kids, coach them up, turn them into a team and clean house when you took them on the road. As a result those kids are going to get drafted by everybody from the NAHL to the USHL to the NHL. I think I just exposed both the Fire's and MM's business/hockey models right there...... sorry.

Sure it is expensive, so what? If a parent has the money to spend they will. Association hockey is not cheap either so we are not talking about something like a free public high school education vs spending 35K plus at SSM. The ice fees, coaching fees, travel fees, and etc from those mid level kids are what make it possible to keep the costs down enough to have the large numbers of kids in hockey and who also offset the costs associated with an A team, lose that money and it is going to hurt association hockey in a big way.

Great post!

[spin-o-rama]

People like the Clown really don't have a clue. They just keep bringing the argument around to the greater good.

Yes, people need to promote only their own selfish agendas.

Seriously, O-town is just reminding us that the Tier I option is not such an easy to manage pipedream. The idea of some that the Tier I team spots will be available for all the small town stars and big association bubble A team kids is ludicrous.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

I'm glad you have a good situation where you are at. You probably shouldn't comment like you know everyone else's though.

And if you don't, you probably shouldn't assume like making changes to address your issue happens without affecting others. Some adversely.

And some for the good of all. You could argue that ending slavery was a bad thing for southern slave owners and that it adversely affected them, do you want to? We did not let women vote, now we have a few who are going to make a serious run to lead our country. Great, unless you are the male politician who is gonna get beaten out by one of them. Want to argue that we need to go back to the good old days? Slide rules worked very well for years, the abacus was great for china, first adding machine helped them out a bunch, still in use in some places. Shall we mandate that everybody uses an abacus and slide rule or say that if you are good at that and want to do that fine, personally I want the option to use a computer because it works best for me. Computers are great unless you make slide rules. What I (and I think others) am saying is that just because it works well for you and you have benefited from it does not mean that it works well now for all of us. The fact that associations are making rules to freeze out competition (Fire, MM, Teir 1, etc) rather than by out competing them and putting them out of business the old fashion way is a huge red flag. How much of a head start do you need? The kids live in your neighborhood, they go to school with your other players, you are way cheaper, less travel time, you have the storied history of the great names playing for you and yet you can't stand the competition from another viewpoint? My association has issues, all of them do. My favorite grocery store has issues, my truck has issues, and etc. If I can live with the issues I will. So far my association issues, grocery store issues and truck issues are all livable so I live with them. If the issues get to be too big and I need to make a change I want the freedom to make the changes that I need to make. The fact that people are making rules now to stop me from making a change down the road disturbs me.

I wonder, if this works...... This is America, we don't let women vote, we own slaves, he who moves those little beads the quickest wins. Why change? I am a white, male who can move beads quickly so I am just fine. Ahhhhh, not so well, huh?

I know, I know. This is hockey, love it or leave it...........

Bingo! Well said.

The status quo only serves who it serves and ignores the rest. Not surprising those well served resist change. There will come a time when progressive minds populate the board at MAHA and at that time, progressive thinking and progressive initiatives will overpower status quo. It's only a matter of time.

[Quasar]

[quote]Seriously, O-town is just reminding us that the Tier I option is not such an easy to manage pipedream. The idea of some that the Tier I team spots will be available for all the small town stars and big association bubble A team kids is ludicrous.

Tier 1 is not a so called "Pipe Dream" in the rest of the world. Only a holier than thou Minnesotan would even make that statement. Of course it will be difficult. No one who is serious about Tier 1 says otherwise.

Everyone on your side of the discussion keeps bringing it back to the Associations. It's about choice for a few. The many are already well in hand!!

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

The Tier 1 AAA system is going to happen in the state of MN. I think that if MN Hockey wants to have control over it they need to start to lead it out of the box. If not they are going to get ran over as it comes to be. Back in the old days you could get away with the stuff that goes on in association hockey because nobody knew any better and nobody else (to a large degree) played hockey. Look at the post a little bit back that said his kid said "I wish I would have gone to Canada". When that was your choice that was it. Now kids are going to start to go to places and teams in other states. Think that the people in Detroit for Victory Honda or Little Ceasars or etc are gonna tell some kid who wants to come over there to tryout no? I am sure the West Dundee Leafs have a sign up right now saying Minnysnowtons need not apply. Not a chance, they will help him find a host family (they might already do, I don't know) to get him to come over. It is nothing in this day and age of travel, the internet and etc for kids to do things like that. You can live in Detroit, go to school via the MN Connections Academy and play high level hockey. It will happen. Look at the list of kids on the high school forum who are leaving to go places and ask yourself who is next, Bantam age kids are, that is who. There has to be Tier 1 system in MN to preserve the association model by providing an outlet for those kids who are not served by it.

If you are spectacular you make the A team, MN hockey works. If you are bad and don't care, you make a C team or B2 team and MN hockey works. If you are that bubble kid who is not connected enough to over come the corruption within the association model you land on a B team rather than an A team. Go to the Blades, the Velocity, the Legacy, even Team Reebok and what is the first thing that they ask.......... who did he play for and what level? Tell Bernie your kid played for a PeeWee B team last year and that he wants a shot at a Machine team. Good luck with that. How many kids on B teams got nominated to the Advanced 15 tryout system........... none, that is all done through the Bantam A team. If you don't make the 15s you are not gonna make the 16s or 17s. Your chances of moving up in the world are less.

The only way that MN Hockey will be able to save this model (on a very long term basis) is for them to clean up the associations and start to look at themselves as youth hockey groups and NOT high school feeder programs and for the coaching and team selections at the PeeWee and Bantam B levels to become better. Your A teams coaches are paid professionals. They apply for jobs, run systems, develop kids and etc. They fail, they don't get hired back. They want to get hired back. The B teams coaches are mostly parents or newer, less experienced coaches. Not a bad deal and I am very very glad that they step up to do it but they are not (generally speaking across the boards) as good at it is the professionals are. Your A kids get the advantage of A coaching which helps them excel. Your B kids get B coaching which does not help them develop and then they fall farther behind so next year they are way behind those kids who were on the A team. Even two relatively even bubble kids who get split differently will be miles apart next fall. The parents of those upper "nonconnected" B kids are the ones who are going to be on the move. The lower level A kids who make the A team but who wind up sitting all the time or getting their one shift per period are also going to be on the move. If you had a program who had good coaching you could take those kids, coach them up, turn them into a team and clean house when you took them on the road. As a result those kids are going to get drafted by everybody from the NAHL to the USHL to the NHL. I think I just exposed both the Fire's and MM's business/hockey models right there...... sorry.

Sure it is expensive, so what? If a parent has the money to spend they will. Association hockey is not cheap either so we are not talking about something like a free public high school education vs spending 35K plus at SSM. The ice fees, coaching fees, travel fees, and etc from those mid level kids are what make it possible to keep the costs down enough to have the large numbers of kids in hockey and who also offset the costs associated with an A team, lose that money and it is going to hurt association hockey in a big way.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Well said.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Seriously, O-town is just reminding us that the Tier I option is not such an easy to manage pipedream. The idea of some that the Tier I team spots will be available for all the small town stars and big association bubble A team kids is ludicrous.

Tier 1 is not a so called "Pipe Dream" in the rest of the world. Only a holier than thou Minnesotan would even make that statement. Of course it will be difficult. No one who is serious about Tier 1 says otherwise.

Everyone on your side of the discussion keeps bringing it back to the Associations. It's about choice for a few. The many are already well in hand!!

Tier 1 hockey and Association Hockey are not mutually exclusive. They can absolutely exist in harmony, which each serving near 100% of it's intended audience.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Gimme a break. This isn't a grass is greener issue. This is a control issue.

Bingo again! Wow, all the numbers on the card getting called today.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

I just think it's interesting that the most posts in this thread telling hockey parents in Minnesota that they shouldn't get what they want (a choice) is from some clown from Florida.

That's because alot of people have the "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" mentality, and OTC has knowledge of the other side of the fence & is trying to explain to everyone that Minnesota has the greenest side of the fence, WAKE UP!

It is the exact opposite of greener grass, it is the fact that he is not in control and has to deal with parents and players who do not want to shut up and fall into line. Look at his posts, he wants to be able to tell them "it is my way or the highway".

Precisely.

[spin-o-rama]

Seriously, O-town is just reminding us that the Tier I option is not such an easy to manage pipedream. The idea of some that the Tier I team spots will be available for all the small town stars and big association bubble A team kids is ludicrous.

Tier 1 is not a so called "Pipe Dream" in the rest of the world. Only a holier than thou Minnesotan would even make that statement. Of course it will be difficult. No one who is serious about Tier 1 says otherwise.

Everyone on your side of the discussion keeps bringing it back to the Associations. It's about choice for a few. The many are already well in hand!!

Some people feel that Tier I is for the super elite. Some are arguing it is the cure for A bubble kids (an A2 level?). Some believe it will just be used by the small town stars. Some believe it will be fairly affordable. Some think it will allow for extensive travel. It can't be all the above. It is a pipedream to think that Tier I is a magical solution for all these conflicting wants.

[StillAnEagle]

Seriously, O-town is just reminding us that the Tier I option is not such an easy to manage pipedream. The idea of some that the Tier I team spots will be available for all the small town stars and big association bubble A team kids is ludicrous.

Tier 1 is not a so called "Pipe Dream" in the rest of the world. Only a holier than thou Minnesotan would even make that statement. Of course it will be difficult. No one who is serious about Tier 1 says otherwise.

Everyone on your side of the discussion keeps bringing it back to the Associations. It's about choice for a few. The many are already well in hand!!

Some people feel that Tier I is for the super elite. Some are arguing it is the cure for A bubble kids (an A2 level?). Some believe it will just be used by the small town stars. Some believe it will be fairly affordable. Some think it will allow for extensive travel. It can't be all the above. It is a pipedream to think that Tier I is a magical solution for all these conflicting wants.

Great point here.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

It is a pipedream to think that Tier I is a magical solution for all these conflicting wants.

Nobody is suggesting it's a magical solution. The fact is it's a solid option for those who have the ability to play it.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

seems like whenever someone complains, they are labeled as a malcontent. Is it possible they might have a valid point or two? Shouldn't they have options - if they have the money to spend to go elsewhere, they should have the choice. Perhaps if the associations had to compete, they would work harder to provide a better product.

very true

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

It's not too far fetched that if Minnesota went Tier 1 that a Western Division of the MWEHL could form fairly easily. If you already include the 3 other Wisconsin teams, add 4 Metro Teams (Bernie's boys-Fire in the East-Super rink team-and 1 out of Plymouth), consider a team out of Fargo/Moorhead (Stars), toss in Shattuck at the Bantam level, and you suddenly have an 8-9 team league that wouldn't need to "travel" with airfare and thousands of dollars of traveling. You play "festival" weekends 2 x a month, go to 4 tournaments and suddenly you've got 50+ games of driveable hockey. The ONLY way this works is if Minnesota has their fist on the pulse of this league and doesn't let costs and fees get out of control.

Very true. So suppose this happens. It doesn't begin to address the scores of kids that try out and are cut from these teams.

There is nothing to address. The kids that make it make it. The kids that don't move to the next option, be it Tier II if it's there or his Association.

No dfferent than kids who don't make their Association's A team - they just move on to the next option, B team, C team, whatever ... wherever they land.

There is nothing here to address

[Quasar]

Tier 1 is for the Super Elite by definition.

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

right. and where those kids live doesn't matter, be it Edina, New Prague, Wayzeta or Stacy ... teams will need to recruit the best talent to compete at this level, regardless of where they live

[WhosPuckIsItAnyways?]

Realisticaly, there is only enough talent in the Minneapolis Metro area to support 3 or 4 Tier 1 teams. Considering Shattuck is already in the mix, 3 added Tier 1 program may be the best number.

Even if MAHA agreed to support 3 Metro area teams on a trial basis, the benefit would extend to approximatey 1500 Minnesota Hockey players across all divisons (A, B & C) just in the Metro area.

USA Midget 18U AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Midget 16U AAA - X 3 teams of 20

USA Bantam Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Bantam Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Peewee Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Peewee Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Squirt Major AAA - X 3 teams of 20
USA Squirt Minor AAA - X 3 teams of 20

= 480 kids play Tier 1 Hockey
= 480 kids move from B to A
= 480 kids move from C to B

If the Metro area supports 4 teams and the rural areas support 1 or 2 these numbers can easily inflate, potentially benefitting up to 3,000 players/families directly and MAHA as a whole indirectly.

[StillAnEagle]

Tier 1 is for the Super Elite by definition.

By definition most of the off season AAA teams would bill themselves the same. But we all know that many of them are just a collection of B kids trying to make next years A teams.

[Quasar]

Tier 1 is for the Super Elite by definition.

By definition most of the off season AAA teams would bill themselves the same. But we all know that many of them are just a collection of B kids trying to make next years A teams.

No.... The off season teams are exactly that. Summer teams for all.

Most of the summer kids would not be able to make the Tier 1 teams.
Everyone playing summer hockey knows this.!!

The parents know it, and the kids know it. So should anyone interested enough to look into it.

[StillAnEagle]

By definition most of the off season AAA teams would bill themselves the same. But we all know that many of them are just a collection of B kids trying to make next years A teams.

No.... The off season teams are exactly that. Summer teams for all.

Most of the summer kids would not be able to make the Tier 1 teams.
Everyone playing summer hockey knows this.!!

The parents know it, and the kids know it. So should anyone interested enough to look into it.

Hope and Change - I'll take mine back please... that's what this whole thing is turning into. Most people that are getting on this "let's make MN a tier 1 state" bandwagon don't really know what they're asking for. And if it happens (and I say if because there are many people in this thread and on both sides that are "in the know") we'll be wishing for the days of old.

[StillAnEagle]

No.... The off season teams are exactly that. Summer teams for all.

Most of the summer kids would not be able to make the Tier 1 teams.
Everyone playing summer hockey knows this.!!

The parents know it, and the kids know it. So should anyone interested enough to look into it.

Hope and Change - I'll take mine back please... that's what this whole thing is turning into. Most people that are getting on this "let's make MN a tier 1 state" bandwagon don't really know what they're asking for. And if it happens (and I say if because there are many people in this thread and on both sides that are "in the know") we'll be wishing for the days of old.

Maybe, maybe not. Won't know until we try it though..............

Let's save the money we'd spend trying in the name of conventional wisdom. Or is there a try before you buy option? yes! It's called the Fire! Seriously though. It's not like MN hockey has all the participation in the world and NO NHL draft pics. Let's think about this for a minute..... <jeopardy song playing in back ground>

[O-townClown]

Gimme a break. This isn't a grass is greener issue. This is a control issue.

And it kills you that you're not the one in control.

[HockeyDad41]

Gimme a break. This isn't a grass is greener issue. This is a control issue.

And it kills you that you're not the one in control.

At least you get to wear shorts to the rink year round.