Wisconsin Fire

[O-townClown]

It's amazing to me that Minnesota Hockey thought is still pretty much the same as it was 35 years ago.

To paraphrase what someone says above, if this were broken it would fail. Status quo obviously has its merits.

[O-townClown]

I realize there are some that think the rest of the Hockey world is wrong, and that Minnesota has some magic bullet... They do ..it's called numbers!!!

I don't think that's the case at all. The impression I have is that people recognize what Minnesota has works very well there and that hockey needs to be structured differently in areas where participation is less.

In my many conversations with parents it is clear that almost all want their kids to be able to play at their age and ability level. And they want it to be inexpensive and close to home.

Differences in participation mean that what works in one area may not work in another.

[MrBoDangles]

I can think of a few small associations that don't have good ice times, have something short of great coaches, and have just as much if not more politics than the large associations out there. If you're in a good spot, I'm happy for you. But, don't be too quick to paint others as malcontents who should just open enroll based on your experience.

Associations of all sizes have those problems. Associations of all sizes and quality levels have malcontents as well. The picture has been painted on this thread that #1 Small associations are a bad place for a top player and #2 Winter hockey in Minnesota is void of choice. I think both of those contentions are BS and that is what I was trying to point out.

People want to break a system that isn't broken in order to fix a problem that is not really a problem. We have more choices within 1 hour of the metro for teams, development, camps, clinics, specialty coaches, and private school programs then any other spot in the USA. We are starting to see more elite summer teams traveling to Minnesota. We also have public school open enrollment and youth hockey now tied to school district. Not to mention USA Hockey itself removing "National Championship" tournaments at a younger level.

So... Since you have proper levels in your association and don't have to think about it....... everything must be great everywhere else. You mentioned in another post about just waiving out. Have you ever had to do that? Imagine a kid coming in and knocking your kid away from his friends . You wouldn't believe the cold shoulder I got when I just mentioned it to a few from another association.

#2 The choice is to waive into a hostile situation. It would be the complete opposite going to a tier 1 team.

I'm glad you have a good situation where you are at. You probably shouldn't comment like you know everyone else's though.

[Quasar]

I'm glad you have a good situation where you are at. You probably shouldn't comment like you know everyone else's though.

[/quote]

I think everyone interested in this thread should give the above quote a little thought prior to their next post.

[Quasar]

Ok .. This is interesting .. University of Minnesota, University of Wisconsin Madison, University of Wisconsin River Falls, University of North Dakota.

Current Rosters ..99 players 5 directly from Minnesota High schools. The rest all played junior A and hailed from all over the country and Canada including Minnesota.

3 of the five high school direct to college rosters are at the UofM...

The Minnesota high school model works really well for the large association superstars..

Not so much for the other couple of thousand...

[O-townClown]

Ok .. This is interesting .. University of Minnesota, University of Wisconsin Madison, University of Wisconsin River Falls, University of North Dakota.

Current Rosters ..99 players 5 directly from Minnesota High schools. The rest all played junior A and hailed from all over the country and Canada including Minnesota.

3 of the five high school direct to college rosters are at the UofM...

The Minnesota high school model works really well for the large association superstars..

Not so much for the other couple of thousand...

College coaches prefer older players. The players at the University of Minnesota don't hail from "all over the country" - most are Minnesotan. Did you somehow confuse the shift in college hockey away from 19-year-old freshmen to be an indication of a weakness in HS hockey? If so, you've really missed the mark.

Check out the age of the roster when Lake Superior State won their three National Championships. Their players were older, not better. NCAA college coaches have adjusted to a changing landscape.

And remember, if kids are great players and don't want to play HS hockey there is absolutely no need to create a new level. They can play on a USHL team like anyone else.

[O-townClown]

I'm glad you have a good situation where you are at. You probably shouldn't comment like you know everyone else's though.

And if you don't, you probably shouldn't assume like making changes to address your issue happens without affecting others. Some adversely.

[greybeard58]

The reality of playing college hockey without playing Juniors is getting rarer every year.
Wisconsin River Falls is a D 111 school currently shows 24 players and no freshman which means more will be added and shows there are currently 8 players from Minnesota that also played Jr. Hockey.
Minnesota shows 27 on the roster 7 directly from High school and 16 from Minn that played Jrs or another college.
Wisconsin lists 26 players but only listed the home towns on the roster I found and there are 5 players from Minnesota.
North Dakota also lists 26 players with 1 from Mn High school and 5 more from Jrs.
Total players listed-103
Mn high school direct-8
Minnesota players-34 total Minnesota players-42
The only other team mentioned was the NDPT 2 out of the 42 Mn players came from there. There was also no showing of players from any other midget program,all played either High school, NDPT, Junior leagues(Tier I,II,III or another college. I believe there might be a couple of Shattuck players on Wisconsin but I am not sure.

[Quasar]

The reality of playing college hockey without playing Juniors is getting rarer every year.
Wisconsin River Falls is a D 111 school currently shows 24 players and no freshman which means more will be added and shows there are currently 8 players from Minnesota that also played Jr. Hockey.
Minnesota shows 27 on the roster 7 directly from High school and 16 from Minn that played Jrs or another college.
Wisconsin lists 26 players but only listed the home towns on the roster I found and there are 5 players from Minnesota.
North Dakota also lists 26 players with 1 from Mn High school and 5 more from Jrs.
Total players listed-103
Mn high school direct-8
Minnesota players-34 total Minnesota players-42
The only other team mentioned was the NDPT 2 out of the 42 Mn players came from there. There was also no showing of players from any other midget program,all played either High school, NDPT, Junior leagues(Tier I,II,III or another college. I believe there might be a couple of Shattuck players on Wisconsin but I am not sure.

Wow .. This was going to be my next post. You beat me to it!!

The point I believe is that in order to move up in hockey you need to play Jr. A or some equivalent no matter where you play your youth hockey..
Tier 1 AAA in Minnesota would help a lot more kids along that path....
Or, as OTC Says "They can play on a USHL team like anyone else"

[Quasar]

Here's a thought...

How about a Tier 1 AAA program that feeds a real Minnesota Tier 1 Junior A program.


Then those 42 kids from Minnesota could play their Jr. Hockey at home..
And they wouldn't have to play on a USHL team like everybody else.

[greybeard58]

This is a youth hockey topic and you are talking about Juniors when all the talk has been Tier I at the youth level. The numbers showed that Minn with a strong association and High school level sends the greatest numbers on to a higher level. The addition of another Tier I Junior league can not be done at the state level has to be through USA Hockey and remember the Juniors are a business model where owners want to make money.

[greybeard58]

If everyone will take the time to read the registration rules for both Minn and Wisc.,you will find in reality no new rules are being written actually it is an agreement of 2 groups to recognize and enforce registration rules of each entity. Wisc uses the term player release and Mn uses the word waiver, in both states the common wording is the signed release from the players home association.
This has been in the policies of Minn for a long time.
For those that want go to the WAHA web site hit guide book and the rules are about 15 pages down it will also show the definitions for their team classifications and also unclassified teams are considered Tier II. These are the 2009-10 season rules, they like Mn Hockey have not posted the 2010-11 handbooks/guide books.

[Quasar]

Hi Greybeard,
We know all of that stuff. It seems to be really difficult for some people to just understand that we have a differing point of view.. I'm sure you have walked through the Super rink during the summer.
Holding your breath, and squinting, will not change the obvious. I was part of the Minnesota hockey experience, and had a hand in sending 9 kids off my team to play in college. one actually got to play a couple of games in the NHL!!!

But.. you see, I knew those kids, and I know that if they would have had the chance to play somewhere at a higher level, three of them would have had an NHL career .

As far as Juniors not being youth hockey ??? I guess if you think it's something else, and that Tier 1 AAA doesn't feed that program in the rest of the world, well then we might as well be arguing with a stump!!

Minnesota youth hockey, or MAHA, as it was known in my day is doing a great job at feeding the Minnesota High School league. However when proponents of your argument make statements like " if they don't want to play High School" let them eat cake.. It gets a few us us a little upset.

And perhaps you should read NPC's last post!!

See ..We love it ..But. Were not leaving!!!

[MrBoDangles]

I'm glad you have a good situation where you are at. You probably shouldn't comment like you know everyone else's though.

And if you don't, you probably shouldn't assume like making changes to address your issue happens without affecting others. Some adversely.

[Quasar]

And if you don't, you probably shouldn't assume like making changes to address your issue happens without affecting others. Some adversely.

I think that means, If your kid got a raw deal, for what ever reason, and your not on the Association Board, Tuff nuggies... And, who are you to upset the applecart by wanting to find a better situation for your kid!!

It's kinda like "My kid had a great experience" I guess there must be something wrong with you..

Don't give up .... Were not going away ....

[greybeard58]

Quasar,
By definition of USA Hockey Youth Hockey is Midgets 18U and below, Mn Hockey includes Jr Gold. Junior Hockey Tier I,II,III is under the direct governance of the Junior counsel of USA Hockey. Mn Hockey can not award teams/franchises at this level. They have a completely different set of rules concerning the Junior age group.
When you were part of MAHA there were USHL teams in the state and they left because of money problems because of not being able to draw crowds. I agree all programs feed the Juniors, college and Pros.
I have seen over a period years(40+) just how well the Minnesota way of community based hockey with high school has worked and benefited all. It also allows a student to participate in other sports and inter-scholastic activities which is also important to overall growth and development.
I have also watched the numbers and talked with members of other states and USA Hockey districts and I currently see no need to change the current system. The opinion I have developed after dealing with and the exposure of at least 20 Tier I 14 and Under,12 and Under teams from different states has not left me with a positive opinion as to being needed in this state.
Nobody has yet to submit a proposal to Minnesota Hockey and prove to them the benefits that level would give to Minnesota players during the Mn season as a whole and do not worry about me as I have no voting power. If no one makes the presentation nothing will change.

[longrebound]

[quote="Quasar"]Hi Greybeard,
We know all of that stuff. It seems to be really difficult for some people to just understand that we have a differing point of view.. I'm sure you have walked through the Super rink during the summer.
Holding your breath, and squinting, will not change the obvious. I was part of the Minnesota hockey experience, and had a hand in sending 9 kids off my team to play in college. one actually got to play a couple of games in the NHL!!!

But.. you see, I knew those kids, and I know that if they would have had the chance to play somewhere at a higher level, three of them would have had an NHL career .

As far as Juniors not being youth hockey ??? I guess if you think it's something else, and that Tier 1 AAA doesn't feed that program in the rest of the world, well then we might as well be arguing with a stump!!

Minnesota youth hockey, or MAHA, as it was known in my day is doing a great job at feeding the Minnesota High School league. However when proponents of your argument make statements like " if they don't want to play High School" let them eat cake.. It gets a few us us a little upset.

And perhaps you should read NPC's last post!!

See ..We love it ..But. Were not leaving!!![/quote]



Are you saying that you had nine players on your team go to play in college and one in the NHL but if you would have been able to play Tier 1 three would have made the NHL? That is preposterous.

And, as for the last statement in your post (were not leaving) ... according to your location, you have already left.

[Quasar]

Nobody has yet to submit a proposal to Minnesota Hockey and prove to them the benefits that level would give to Minnesota players during the Mn season as a whole and do not worry about me as I have no voting power. If no one makes the presentation nothing will change.

Greybeard,
I, like you, am working on a 40+ platform, I like you have no vote, and I like you know that when my exceptionally talented kid needed the next step in hockey development in 1978 he needed to move to Canada. No matter what was in existence in Minnesota at the time!!! Minnesota hockey has always been about High School. I am not arguing the fact that it hasn't worked well for all that feel that that's enough. However then as now, there are some that want more. And then as now the Minnesota Hockey Board cannot bring themselves to the realization that they are not the only people in Minnesota that care about hockey!!

Tier 1 AAA would not hurt anybody !!! Let me say that again ... Tier 1 AAA would not hurt anybody..

If the argument is always going to be "Give me the answers" Someone, somewhere, sometime, is going to have to listen to the questions!!!!

[Quasar]

[quote]Are you saying that you had nine players on your team go to play in college and one in the NHL but if you would have been able to play Tier 1 three would have made the NHL? That is preposterous.

No ... What is preposterous is the attitude that Minnesota Hockey cannot figure out a way to maximize the talent available. These kids played in the mid 70's. In those days Canada was the only route for the truly possessed.

As far as me living in Wisconsin.. What has that got to do with anything???

By the way for what it's worth.. I heard the same arguments when we scraped together our first Traveling team... I suppose if we would have listened to the naysayers then Things would be a little different now !!!

How about it Greybeard .. Remember the the argument for House leagues only ??

[royals dad]

I wonder, if this works...... This is America, we don't let women vote, we own slaves, he who moves those little beads the quickest wins. Why change? I am a white, male who can move beads quickly so I am just fine. Ahhhhh, not so well, huh?

Are you honestly saying the fact that your son needs to play winter hockey in the association that serves his school district some how has analogies to slavery or suffrage? Or that Tier ! youth hockey is a leap ahead of association hockey as the computer is to an abacus? Offensive on one hand and BS on the other!

Let me try an analogy once to try and make you understand my point. Minneapolis once had a fabulous electric street car system. The street cars were extremely efficient and reached all corners of the metro. They went up to 70 miles per hour so they could get you from downtown to lake Minnetonka quicker than in a car today. When the companies that sold buses set their sites on Minnesota they paid off politicians and had the street car lines torn out, burned or dismantled the cars, and eliminated almost every bit of infrastructure. It was sold to the public as a great leap forward. We bought a ton of buses. As soon as they were done people started to realize that buses suck, polluted like crazy, clogged the roads. and required us to add more highways. People who had never before felt they needed are car now had to have 2. More congestion required more roads. The solution that is now the great leap forward? Light rail! We are now spending billions to have a few straight lines of light rail that will never be even a hint as good as the street car system was, we will never be able to get that back.

You want to change our hockey system now in a way that I believe will move us backwards. Essentially reducing/removing the base of the pyramid, our system isn't better we have more kids playing. However, we have more kids playing because of our system.

Before you give us this holier than now stuff about freedom of choice, unless you are talking about everyone and not just the superstar kids that is a hollow argument.

[Quasar]

L

et me try an analogy once to try and make you understand my point. Minneapolis once had a fabulous electric street car system. The street cars were extremely efficient and reached all corners of the metro. They went up to 70 miles per hour so they could get you from downtown to lake Minnetonka quicker than in a car today. When the companies that sold buses set their sites on Minnesota they paid off politicians and had the street car lines torn out, burned or dismantled the cars, and eliminated almost every bit of infrastructure. It was sold to the public as a great leap forward. We bought a ton of buses. As soon as they were done people started to realize that buses suck, polluted like crazy, clogged the roads. and required us to add more highways. People who had never before felt they needed are car now had to have 2. More congestion required more roads. The solution that is now the great leap forward? Light rail! We are now spending billions to have a few straight lines of light rail that will never be even a hint as good as the street car system was, we will never be able to get that back.

I used to ride it to school.. They were cool..

[Quasar]

Well .. Here's part of the problem.

"You want to change our hockey system now in a way that I believe will move us backwards. Essentially reducing/removing the base of the pyramid, our system isn't better we have more kids playing. However, we have more kids playing because of our system."

Here's what I think. The base of the pyramid is B2 C and Lower...
The tip of the pyramid is A traveling... No body in the base could qualify for real Tier 1 hockey. Only a couple of kids per team from the top would be able to. Therein lies the rub. How will each little kingdom be able to compete if someone takes their stars?? Simple they will have new stars as everyone moves up a step. And then maybe the cream of the Minnesota crop will be able to show the world something bigger than a sold out high school tournament!!

[Quasar]

Make the Tier 1 AAA teams totally self sufficient. No association support, no high school affiliations, no special breaks for or against them, just let them go into existence and attempt to do their thing. I honestly think that it would also strengthen the association model from the stand point of new ideas, making them stay current with what their membership wants and needs and would also allow those kids and parents who want to try something different the opportunity to do so. I honestly can't see putting my kids into a model like that as I am sure it would be expensive, the travel would be a killer and the politics would be horrific but that is just me, not you, you do what you want to do.

How about a league of 20 Tier 1 Teams playing within Minnesota. No more travel than association, No more costly than Association, No threat to Minnesota hockey because they would be part of Minnesota hockey. No threat to the high school league because they would play for their school just like now. It could be done by forming District teams.

And like you I'm just voicing ideas .. Actually I have no dog in this hunt, as they say... Just my two cents worth.

[greybeard58]

Yes I remember the talk of house leagues only and I also remember that was at the Squirt level and lower and was also Championed by Herb Brooks who also thought USA Hockey should put the money spent on the NDTP into other programs that would increase the base and Juniors.
A couple questions on the team you were involved with 9 players went on to college,did they graduate and off of the team how many have come back to get involved where they live with their associations ?
It is too bad that the summer and fall opportunities and Juniors didn't exist back in the 70's as they are now.
Did you ever get involved with trying to get MAHA changed in the 80'S,90'S or recently?
2009-10 Mens hockey
Minn. DI -196,D III-249 TOTAL-445
Mass.D1-101,D III- 284 TOTAL-385
N.Y. DI-100.D III- 159 TOTAL-259
Mich. D I-125,D III- 79 TOTAL-204

As for hurting teams/associations ask the players from the public schools when players leave for the better education at a private school or the other team members who could have benefited by playing with the better players and thus being able to also improve.
Why is it that USA Hockey officials are telling Mn Hockey that if the states with Tier I teams could start over they would follow the Mn model. Read the past minutes from the USA Hockey Affiliate Presidents meetings and you will find at that level all is not well. Illinois complains about the 96 spots taken by out of state players and also foreign players. Alaska complains about the recruiting of their younger players to other Tier I teams. The 2 16U coaches while not technically breaking rules figured out how to end a shoot out by having their goalies leave a wide open net so each team would score and advance to the championship game. They did get suspended for making a travesty of the game.
As for the Fire which this thread was about ask WAHA why the clamp down as they are a Wisconsin registered team.

[Quasar]

Greybeard,
I guess I don't have an answer for you. I suppose I could ask my kid. He's the one that told me about the kids he played with. I never got involved further than being an assistant coach for my kids Squirt, and Peewee teams. When he went on the bantam A team, I opted to coach the Bantam B team. My son played for 1 year at the college level then decided to do other things..

I just couldn't leave this subject alone. I made the initial arrangements for my son to play in Canada.. He couldn't leave his friends and family. Not surprising for a 15 year old. I can't believe that I was willing to let him go..
He is now involved in youth hockey... The other day we were talking about his team and teammates and what they accomplished, when he blurted out "God I wish I would have gone to Canada" This is the reason for my sudden interest in this particular subject.

It would be nice for there to be some accommodation for the kids and parents that are willing to make the big plunge...

As for me .. I think this subject is best left to those that are fighting the battle today.. Nothing is ever easy... And I think that the Hockey people I've met over the years could figure this out to every ones benefit.

FYI .. we played over 70 games a season back in the dark days and yes we did this with squirts.. We were almost lynched !!! But we won our district. The kids will never forget that. I think the reason for the success of that bunch of kids was the fact that they played together for their entire youth hockey experience. Then they all played Varsity together.

I played my youth Hockey in North Minneapolis with a head band and some newspaper...