Rationale for delaying 14U Season for HS tryouts ??

[Pens4]

With a daughter moving up to the 14 level this year I am trying to understand why certain programs wait until after the HS tryouts to start their 14U season.

Our youth organization's main concern is girls leaving for the JV or Varsity after their respective 14U teams are picked and having to shuffle B players to A teams. Do any programs out there have a system in place to manage this? I think of it like Bantam hockey...my son didn't wait until the high school season was going before they started. Everyone complains on the boy HS side about how the guys go from 70+ games in Bantams to a 35 game...football shortened season. And a JV season is more like 20 games.

I know this will eventually move to the the whole JV vs 14A discussion...I will throw it out now...under no circumstances should a quality 14UA level player go and play a JV hockey schedule. But my main thought is how to get the 14U season up and running state wide on October 1st.

[royals dad]

So is your goal to force players to try out for the youth program before they can try out for the HS program to take away the HS option?

[luckyEPDad]

So is your goal to force players to try out for the youth program before they can try out for the HS program to take away the HS option?

Interesting interpretation of the previous post. I don't hear a hidden agenda in the question.

What do other associations do to manage Varsity, JV, and U14? U12 teams ofen have weeks of practice time in before the HS team is chosen. Do you start U14 the same time as U12, or delay til after HS? Both have pros and cons. What does your association do, and why?

I have to agree with the JV comment. Other than money, why chose to play half as many games?

[Night Train]

I think for some associations it's more than just moving a few B players up it would be total demise of the 14 level if 8 kids left. It definitely messes up the numbers. It is unfortunate that the youth associations bow to the High School programs but it's partially to avoid the pain and confusion of total blow up. It probably started after a number of programs went through it.

14 is a tough level and someone help me here but if there are 100 12U teams in the state there are like 30 14U teams. Small Associations are already co-oping their girls and several do play at the high school level. Sometimes it seems overall numbers are in a temporary decline/dip and the high schools are definitely reaching into the youth ranks to fill out 2 teams. They need 30 skaters and where are they going to come from. They take 4 strong 14s for varsity and the next 4 14s for JV. So, unless you're a large girls association (3-4-5 statewide), you aren't going to withstand the blow. High schools are taking strong 12 U players too.

The comparison with boys is tough. I couple of years ago a strong Champlin Park Bantam A team lost 6-8 players a month into their season after they played in, and I won, the Hall of Fame Tournament the first weekend of November. Ouch, that's a lot of shuffling. With larger numbers on the boys side they probably did just shuffle a bunch up. It still caused a problem at a level or two I presume. Boys high school programs take bantams just the same and there are several fewer bantam teams than PeeWee teams for partially the same reason. The youth associations try and get the boys they know are going to play high school to just stay out of the youth process. Some skaters have used it as an inexpensive warm-up for the varsity tryout with no intention of ever staying. Some youth boys programs collect the entire registration fee, or half, instead of just a tryout fee, for that reason. Want to lose $1200/$1400 go ahead and skate a month. That's been a good deterrent.

[capitalist]

Every kid will make their decision about the U14-HS issue based on their own situation. Agreed that no 8th grader should play JV (or V for that matter), but for freshmen there can be good reasons to play JV. For instance: no more dad coaches, the competition among the big programs is better than U14 (maybe not so among the smaller ones), they get exposure to the program and system and coaches they'll be playing for in the future, they might even get a call-up to V if they play especially well. Plus, the activity fee is about $200 compared to $1200-$1400 for Association hockey. I know that's not a problem for wealthy EP residents, but for many it's an issue.

If you're going to coach the U14 team for your association, I'm sure you can talk the board into letting you start early. Just be ready for a big headache once the HS team's tryouts roll around. And good luck trying to talk to parents about what's good for their kid.

[observer]

They should be skating somewhere. You've got 2 numbers, returning 14s and 12s coming up. That's your number. Goal is to have one team or two? On your own or co-oped? Maybe the 12s and 14s skate together based on your numbers and size of your association. But ya, they should have ice and should be skating at the same time as the rest of the youth program. Not all youth programs even have warm up ice before tryouts but most do. 14s, and even 12s, are often invited to skate with the high school program during the summer. Depends on the relationship between the youth association and the high school. Working together or competing with your summer skating programs. Sometimes the girls from your team will go to one high school sometimes they will go to 6 different high schools.

And, Cap's right. Beyond quality of play the top two reasons players make the move are money and transportation.

[Pens4]

They should be skating somewhere. You've got 2 numbers, returning 14s and 12s coming up. That's your number. Goal is to have one team or two? On your own or co-oped? Maybe the 12s and 14s skate together based on your numbers and size of your association. But ya, they should have ice and should be skating at the same time as the rest of the youth program. Not all youth programs even have warm up ice before tryouts but most do. 14s, and even 12s, are often invited to skate with the high school program during the summer. Depends on the relationship between the youth association and the high school. Working together or competing with your summer skating programs. Sometimes the girls from your team will go to one high school sometimes they will go to 6 different high schools.

And, Cap's right. Beyond quality of play the top two reasons players make the move are money and transportation.

The clinics prior to the season are important (I'd prefer September rather than all of October) but I think the early formation of the team is equally important. An interesting fact, of the eight 14UA teams in the state tournament...at least 5 (Edina, Blaine, Wayzata, Champlin Park, Andover) all started their tryouts by October 1st. I am not sure about the others (Moorehead, Roseau & Minnetonka).

[observer]

Bigger numbers lead to more cohesive teams and the players know where they will likely end up playing with very few exceptions. It's rare and maybe only a few pieces are moving. In some communities whole 14 teams, and a few 12s, get soaked up into the high school program. Broad range of situations out there. The girls situation needs to be flexible and friendly so teams can be co-oped. With the boys it gets boiled down to the C team but with girls there are shortages at the A and B level. Not to be unfair but that's different. When it gets boiled down to 4-5 girls in a grade it makes ya wish you had recruited 20 more 5 year old girls when you started.

[Pens4]

Great input....and it is evident that there are strong perceptions on HS programs vs 14U. I believe these perceptions on the value of the schools JV program is a huge contributing cause to the drop off in team numbers from 12U to 14U.

IMO the majority of parents believe it is a badge of honor to enter the HS program (JV) at as young an age as possible. There is also a belief that the coaching in HS is stronger than their city program....that the competition and teams are better....that the regular practice time is great for development....that the cost is pennies on the dollar compared to 14U...that playing JV is gives you a greater opportunity to play varsity...that the schedule is much more manageable. Fact or Fiction?

[royals dad]

Fact or Fiction?

There is no blanket answer, each situation is different. Different school, different year, different kid. You might have a great U14 coach this year but who is the coach next year.

I have seen top players that take one path or the other. There are players that thrive in U14 and there are others that thrive in HS, some will do well regardless of where they end up. As a parent it is not always easy to pick what options to make available to your daughter.

I do think if an 8th grader is ready for Varsity I like to see them get that opportunity.

[HockeyMom1410]

So is your goal to force players to try out for the youth program before they can try out for the HS program to take away the HS option?

Interesting interpretation of the previous post. I don't hear a hidden agenda in the question.

What do other associations do to manage Varsity, JV, and U14? U12 teams ofen have weeks of practice time in before the HS team is chosen. Do you start U14 the same time as U12, or delay til after HS? Both have pros and cons. What does your association do, and why?

I have to agree with the JV comment. Other than money, why chose to play half as many games?

My 8th grader moved up to JV/Varsity last season as there was no where else to play unless you want to waive out and play 14U elsewhere. While it's not ideal for a variety of reasons (locker room, # of games, etc), it can work. She did end up on Varsity and did well. While you don't get the same number of games as you do at a youth level, you do get practice every day (approx 2hrs+ ice time). There are many advantages and disadvantages to the situation. It is tough as we don't have enough girls for 14U even though our coach (hs) would prefer we had a 14U. I do think she's a better player from playing Varsity last year as an 8th grader.

[Pens4]

So is your goal to force players to try out for the youth program before they can try out for the HS program to take away the HS option?

Interesting interpretation of the previous post. I don't hear a hidden agenda in the question.

What do other associations do to manage Varsity, JV, and U14? U12 teams ofen have weeks of practice time in before the HS team is chosen. Do you start U14 the same time as U12, or delay til after HS? Both have pros and cons. What does your association do, and why?

I have to agree with the JV comment. Other than money, why chose to play half as many games?

My 8th grader moved up to JV/Varsity last season as there was no where else to play unless you want to waive out and play 14U elsewhere. While it's not ideal for a variety of reasons (locker room, # of games, etc), it can work. She did end up on Varsity and did well. While you don't get the same number of games as you do at a youth level, you do get practice every day (approx 2hrs+ ice time). There are many advantages and disadvantages to the situation. It is tough as we don't have enough girls for 14U even though our coach (hs) would prefer we had a 14U. I do think she's a better player from playing Varsity last year as an 8th grader.

I would agree your daughter must have improved if she she made the jump from JV to a regular shift on varsity.

The key being having a regular shift. For our varsity teams that is top 10 players....not the 3rd line or swing line. I am amazed how few lines the HS coach's run during the season. This practice essentially shelf's the developement of these players.

I think the swing line is the hardest situation for any player. They are the Best of the Lousiest, the Lousiest of the Best....you asked for a regular/predicable schedule....you got it. Every Tues-Thurs-Sat your girl will be at the rink from 4pm-10:30pm. You will get an opportunity to watch her play a couple periods of the JV game and then sit on the bench with the varsity and get a 3rd period shift in blowout games. Homework between periods.

IMO it is extremely important we find 14A teams for daughters like "HockeMom's" to play on. If the HS ever wants to find enough depth to win regularly...they need to develope a 3rd line that can contribute. Those girls need to have been the "Go-To Players" at some level to be contribute. My guess is that Edina & Blaine & Champlin Park & Andover's top 14UA players last season will roll directly to one of the top 3 lines of their varsity squads. They will leap frog the swing line that dressed for every game last year.

[observer]

I agree. The problem is the high school coach has a goal to fill two teams. It means a job for their friend the JV coach. Many teams wouldn't even have a JV team if it weren't for 12U and 14U eligible players they take out of the youth program. High Schools want JV teams or scheduling is a challenge because most schools want games for both teams when they schedule. If your daughter is a 14U now it's to late. The youth program and high school either have 45 players, to fill 3 teams, or they don't. Most don't.

I think I read they dropped all JV sports in San Jose California as a budget cut. All those kids, in every sport, return to youth clubs. If 20 or 30 schools dropped JV girls hockey together then the numbers at the 14U level would improve. There aren't a lot of solutions. Be glad you live in the metro where there are some co-op opps for 14U. You live in a small town, in the north or south, and it's a mess.

Get out and recruit 5-6 year old girls. 12 year old girl hockey players don't fall from trees. 30 new mite girls, every year, is the goal.

[sinbin]

Good posts here. In our association, 14U tryouts are before HS, so you must decide which one you want. If you skip 14U tryouts and don't make HS (either JV or Varisty), there is no spot for you on 14U. I still don't understand that logic. If you want security, you can try out for 14U and then try out for HS. If you don't make HS, you can stay on 14U. If you make HS, you forfeit either 50% or 100% (sorry, don't recall) of your youth hockey fees. Either way, your paying $750-$1,500 for a couple of hours of 14U ice time and the security to play somewhere. I don't understand this logic, either.

Administrators will contend that this helps them with numbers for the youth program since you need to know how many 14U teams you're going to have and there is some truth to that, but the players are taking the risk and paying the (steep) price, not the association.

So, I suppose this helps some with the original poster's question. Pro's for 14U - more games, generally better competition than JV, playing with your friends/age group. Pro's of JV - much less cost, stable practice and game times, less practice travel time, usually better coaching.

Unsure - which has more ice time, since HS season is shorter, but practicing every day? 14U generally has equal playing time - con for the best players, pro for the weaker players, but we all know which teams shorten their bench.

It depends on the makeup of the teams, too. My daughter was a first year 14UA last season, but about half of the team couldn't very well (in some combination) catch a pass, skate backwards, skate with their head up, make appropriate passes, etc. and these were first year players, too, so they'll be back next year. She knows the caliber of players on JV and Varsity and while we have been in the "14UA is always better than JV" camp forever, the thought of enduring another season with those skill sets is almost unfathomable. So, she'll likely try out for HS and has a shot of making a very strong varsity team and, if not, will play on a strong JV team (although there is some talent disparity here, too, but at least there are tiered lines) and be a leader there.

Many pros and cons, much of it has to do with numbers on the girls' side, unfortunately, so an association and HS can't always do what is necessarily best for all concerned - they still have to make the numbers work out somehow. In the end, do what you think is best for your daughter and what she wants to do. Good luck.

[observer]

Careful as you plan to co-op as well. I've heard of associations saving spots for their association members, before tryouts, potentially leaving a player with difficulty finding a place to play. If girls are going to co-op it should be all in so every player has an equal chance to make the team they're trying out for. Some associations only co-op at the A level and send the B team back to the home association. All of the girls stuff is sticky and icky because it's a numbers game and the number is never exactly correct.

Imagine being a middle of the pack player in your community based association. Not quite enough players for a solid 14UA team so they decide to co-op with a neighboring association. Tryouts are held, the association brings in 8 skaters from the neighboring association, and all of a sudden no spot for the player that's been with the association for 5 years. Not enough for a 14UB team either. Ouch, she gets sent out in favor of a stronger player from another association. It happens.

The goal is to get as many girls skating at the appropriate level as close to home as possible. But, inject some politics and favoritism and the whole idea is ruined. It's difficult to know the number because some will go play JV or varsity but the goal should be to have an appropriate number so there's a spot for all the girls in your association. Of course it's rare to have the exact number needed to field 1, 2 or 3 teams.

Recruit, recruit, recruit so in the future your girls program doesn't have the same difficulties they're having today.

[hockeyheaven]

In my opinion the process works just fine. High school tryouts should take place before U14 other wise how you can set your teams. With a late start already are you going to delay team assignments… or have a series of bumps? Like musical chairs… I’d hate to be the last one standing. As far as costs…please, it’s still around a grand for high school. With participation fees, booster fees and 26 games at $6 a pop for gate charges. Anyway the numbers will always dictate what happens. I agree that it is a personal choice…and only you can decide what is right. As far as 7th, 8th (and even 9th) graders playing…physical, mental and emotional maturity should be the guiding principles. Furthermore, as posted many times in the past, if you are thinking about playing up first dominate one level before even considering playing at the next

[ilike2score]

Last year at our association we had about ten 14U eligible players tryout for High School. The High School tryouts were AFTER the youth teams were formed. But these girls did not sign up for youth first. Two of them made the High School Team. Three or Four of them went and played on a Coop 14UA at a neighboring Association, and Three or Four of them came back to our local association to play on the Boys Bantam B team. This created a huge problem as the Boys teams had already been picked. One Bantam A team and one Bantam B team split evenly numbers wise. Now throw in the mix three or four girls at the B level and the roster increased to 18 skaters. Needless to say alot of the boys parents were not to happy. I agree the options for Girls Hockey are dictated by the numbers game, but that is the same with the boys. I can not wait for the day when their is Girls Hockey, and their is Boys Hockey. That would eliminate many issues facing almost all of the smaller associations.

[observer]

Remember, every situation is different.

In this one though all the eligible girls should have tried out for the 14U team first just like a bantam tryout in October. Then if a few do make varsity the others return to the 14U team they already tried out for. JV is where it gets sticky usually. I don't suggest leaving 14UA for JV but some families will.

Bantam B isn't a good spot for girls. At PeeWee some girls are bigger, stronger and faster than the boys their same age. That changes at bantam when the boys become bigger, stronger and faster. PeeWees bump and good bantams try and totally squish you. There's also a sexuality issue in bantam that usually doesn't exist at PeeWee. Having a girl in a PeeWee locker room is one thing but not a good idea in a bantam locker room.

Now there are still issues in this scenario. They pick 15 skaters for the 14UA team. 6 go to varsity tryouts and 3 are selected. Now 12 skaters. In most instances the 14UA will stick with that number and not bring girls up from 14UB. Is there a 14UB to bring 3 girls up to the fill the 15 skater spots on 14UA if they wanted to? If 3 are taken off 14UB does the 14UB team go with a smaller roster? The numbers are rarely perfect so it's likely one team will have a large or small roster. In some instances a few girls do need to go to the neighboring association which is always a little unfortunate. With the player goes the revenue.

I think the 14s should start skating and tryout the same time as bantam boys. I think starting the process and team bonding helps as things get confusing down the road. Maybe a few girls decide this looks like fun and decide not to tryout for varsity. The team is looking for verbal commitments even if some don't stand up. I think getting the team organized with some scrimmages and even a tournament before high school tryouts will help keep them together. If you wait to start then everyone starts considering their options more seriously because currently they aren't skating with anyone.

And, just because a JV coach says they'd like to have your daughter on the team doesn't mean that's the best place for her. Their job title is JV coach. Their responsibility is to have, and coach, a JV team. That's their interest. The family needs to decide what's best for their daughter but I'll tell you it's not JV.

[Pens4]

Remember, every situation is different.

In this one though all the eligible girls should have tried out for the 14U team first just like a bantam tryout in October. Then if a few do make varsity the others return to the 14U team they already tried out for. JV is where it gets sticky usually. I don't suggest leaving 14UA for JV but some families will.

Now there are still issues in this scenario. They pick 15 skaters for the 14UA team. 6 go to varsity tryouts and 3 are selected. Now 12 skaters. In most instances the 14UA will stick with that number and not bring girls up from 14UB. Is there a 14UB to bring 3 girls up to the fill the 15 skater spots on 14UA if they wanted to? If 3 are taken off 14UB does the 14UB team go with a smaller roster? The numbers are rarely perfect so it's likely one team will have a large or small roster. In some instances a few girls do need to go to the neighboring association which is always a little unfortunate. With the player goes the revenue.

I think the 14s should start skating and tryout the same time as bantam boys. I think starting the process and team bonding helps as things get confusing down the road. Maybe a few girls decide this looks like fun and decide not to tryout for varsity. The team is looking for verbal commitments even if some don't stand up. I think getting the team organized with some scrimmages and even a tournament before high school tryouts will help keep them together. If you wait to start then everyone starts considering their options more seriously because currently they aren't skating with anyone.

And, just because a JV coach says they'd like to have your daughter on the team doesn't mean that's the best place for her. Their job title is JV coach. Their responsibility is to have, and coach, a JV team. That's their interest. The family needs to decide what's best for their daughter but I'll tell you it's not JV.

Observer...couldn't agree more. I think the verbal committment is a good solution. And it is important for HS age girls (9th graders) to attend the varsity tryout. If they make the varsity...GREAT...but if she doesn't then she gained the experience of playing with varsity caliber players and goes back to develope with the 14A's.

I think the 14UA level is going to be its deepest in history. I look at organizations like Centennial, Wayzata, Minnetonka, Roseau, TRF, Blaine, Roseville, Rochester, Stillwater, Anoka, Eden Prarie, Andover, NWC, WBL, Champin Park, ThunderBay, Elk River, Cottage Grove, Lakeville and the depth of competition is better than ever. This age group was extremely competitive two years ago in 12's. I think there will be 10-12 teams that can beat each on any given night and that is as deep as any level of hockey gets.

You don't have to look any further than Edina (probably the strongest girls program in the country) to see what gives the best development. They will probably field two 14A teams this year and get that group ready to reload the top varsity team in the state.

And for the smaller communities...everyone talks about how great it would be to run AAA club teams during the season....rainbow with nearby teams. The Bloomington's all come together and put together a good group (there JV gets beat by 10 goals every night). Skaters from Cooper- Robinsdale-Armstrong-Park could put together 13 skaters as good as any. I think it is going to be a great 14 season.