Minnesota Tier 1 Winter Hockey

[hockeyrocks87]

I would like to hear what people think about promoting Tier 1 winter hockey in Minnesota like they do in Wisconsin and other states. What are the Pros & Cons? Would it create another option for the elite players at each age level and improve hockey overall in Minnesota?

[muckandgrind]

I would like to hear what people think about promoting Tier 1 winter hockey in Minnesota like they do in Wisconsin and other states. What are the Pros & Cons? Would it create another option for the elite players at each age level and improve hockey overall in Minnesota?

Oh boy......

Looks like the beginning of another 200 page thread on a topic that has already been beat to death on this board.

[hockeyrocks87]

Well Muk it was either bring up this topic or call out the cowards that personally savaged the 99 Torspo coach. I figured this topic would actually bring out the people without a personal vendetta! I think Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota is a valid topic so let's beat the dead horse again!

[muckandgrind]

Well Muk it was either bring up this topic or call out the cowards that personally savaged the 99 Torspo coach. I figured this topic would actually bring out the people without a personal vendetta! I think Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota is a valid topic so let's beat the dead horse again!

"Personally savaged"????? Really? I look at it more of reporting the actions of a man in charge of kids. I've never commented on what other saw, only what I saw with my own two eyes....nothing cowardly about that at all. Like I said before, this guy could be a good person away from the rink, but he has crossed the line with some of his actions. If you want to call someone a "coward", how about the parents who allow their kids to be treated in a manner like this and not stand up for them? We criticize "over zealous" parents all the time....are "over zealous" hockey coaches somehow supposed to be immune from criticism now?

[JSR]

Well Muk it was either bring up this topic or call out the cowards that personally savaged the 99 Torspo coach. I figured this topic would actually bring out the people without a personal vendetta! I think Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota is a valid topic so let's beat the dead horse again!

For the record, my epxerience has been that the MAJORITY of hockey people in Wisconsin are trying very hard to build up Wisconsin association hockey like you have in Minne so we can get away from kids leaving too young for Tier 1 year round hockey. I find it hilarious that folks in Minnesota want to "undo" what everyone else is trying to become.

[GreatOne99]

Well Muk it was either bring up this topic or call out the cowards that personally savaged the 99 Torspo coach. I figured this topic would actually bring out the people without a personal vendetta! I think Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota is a valid topic so let's beat the dead horse again!

I'd love to have my kid play year around AAA Tier 1 hockey in Minnesota, as long as the 99 Torspo coach isn't involved (hey, you brought it up).

[hockeyrocks87]

Muck, when you make fun of how a coach looks and what he wears I have a problem with that. If you are going to get personal in a public forum like this then post your real name along with a picture for everyone else to comment on! I have no problem if someone uses a coaches name to comment on his or her actions as long as it is the truth. In the case of the 99 Torspo coach the truth was stretched and you know it, I was there.

[hockeyrocks87]

JSR, Do you think that there could be a happy medium between Tier 1 and association hockey? Look at Canada for example, they obviously have great hockey there and I don't see them as being jealous of Minnesota hockey. Don't get me wrong, I think Minnesota hockey is great but I believe that there is a place for both Tier 1 and association hockey. I don't see a problem with having 3 or 4 Tier 1 teams in the state at the peewee level & above to give the really good players another option. I see all too often a really good player trapped in a poorly organized association with no options.

[Ugottobekiddingme]

hkrock87, give it a rest and revisited the thread. You are targeting the wrong individuals with no input towards your position on individual acknowledgment. There should be no tolerance towards publishing names of any individual, coach, player, and so on. Your barking up the wrong tree.

[trippedovertheblueline]

I see all too often a really good player trapped in a poorly organized association with no options.

what ones?

[hockeyrocks87]

Kidding, I'm not targeting anyone in particular, just don't get personal with the comments thats all I'm saying. I think that there is a way to make a point or comment about something without getting nasty. It's real easy, if a person doesn't like a particular topic in a thread then move on to another one.

[Ugottobekiddingme]

Hkrock87....Agreed. Nasty is what we are all being presented with real politics...I hope we all survive that test.

[hockeyrocks87]

Trip,
Jordan and St. Paul. Both kids live for the AAA season to develop their skills and play on competitive teams. Not to say that they are going to be the next Crosby but Tier 1 hockey would give them a much better winter option.

[hockeyrocks87]

Kidding, I agree 100%!

[XVegan]

For the record, my epxerience has been that the MAJORITY of hockey people in Wisconsin are trying very hard to build up Wisconsin association hockey like you have in Minne so we can get away from kids leaving too young for Tier 1 year round hockey. I find it hilarious that folks in Minnesota want to "undo" what everyone else is trying to become.[/quote]

Unfortunately the MAJORITY are not trying to build association based hockey but rather tear down fairly well established AAA/Tier 1 programs. The more realistic model for Wisconsin hockey is the Michigan model of association clubs feeding their best players to AAA teams for development and exposure and then supporting the High School programs for those players preferring that level or not selected for the AAA teams.
Rather than doing everything that they can to build tha association/aa system many are working hard to obstruct the AAA teams and promoting peudo Tier 1 hockey like Team Wisconsin or worse yet WEHL. I think that more effort should be given to supporting the established AAA clubs and even trying to add additional AAA clubs in underserved areas.

[JSR]

For the record, my epxerience has been that the MAJORITY of hockey people in Wisconsin are trying very hard to build up Wisconsin association hockey like you have in Minne so we can get away from kids leaving too young for Tier 1 year round hockey. I find it hilarious that folks in Minnesota want to "undo" what everyone else is trying to become.

Unfortunately the MAJORITY are not trying to build association based hockey but rather tear down fairly well established AAA/Tier 1 programs. The more realistic model for Wisconsin hockey is the Michigan model of association clubs feeding their best players to AAA teams for development and exposure and then supporting the High School programs for those players preferring that level or not selected for the AAA teams.
Rather than doing everything that they can to obstruct the AA teams and promoting peudo Tier 1 hockey like Team Wisconsin or worse yet WEHL I think that more effort should be given to supporting the established AAA clubs and even trying to add additional AAA clubs in underserved areas.

I don't think that is what they are doing at all. I think the MAJORITY are trying to build associtiation hockey. They are trying to make AAA hockey a before and after option like the Minnesota model. There is nothing inherently wrong with year round tier 1 other than I thinkit is offer way to young in Wisconsin. If the earliest it was offered was Pee Wee major I don't think it would be a problem at all, but the fact that next year they will have 2000 kids playing. I'm sorry that is ridiculous.

As for TW and WEHL, what is wrong with kids having options. The only people that seem to have a problem with this are a small handful of misguided parents. Oddly the parents invlovled with TW and WEHL have no such jealousy toward the Tier 1. I'm not sure why there has to be such anymosity from the two sides. The sport is growing, why shouldn't we have as many options as possible for the kids in our state. The kids should WANT to play high school hockey for their high schools, it's more fun and has more realistic goals for the kids. Also, while some argue high school hockey is not as good as tier 1 it's proven it actual can do as good, if not a better job of developing players. I see it it in the youth levels too where there is ALOT that can be said for being the "stud" on your association team instead of being one of the crowd at some AAA team. But when you compliment the two with playing associatuon hockey in the winter and AAA in the spring you are getting both ends of the developmental spectrum, which can be a great method for many and a better way for many if not most kids. How else can they get the confidence end of the game. Your comments about "Pseudo-AAA" and ripping the WEHL (which by the way has produced some quality junior players and is on it's way to producing more scholarhsips than all the year round Tier 1's in Wisconsin combined, TW already does) are comments that tell me exactly what side of the coin you are on and I suspect you have an inability to be objective on the subject. Too bad you cannot recognize that growing the sport for EVERYONE should be the goal instead of waging war againt the folks trying to expand the game, when was the last time you saw year round Tier 1 trying to expand the game for everyone, you don't because it's against their business model. Again I think year round TIer 1 can be a great thing and I don't want it to go away but rather just change it's attitude on a few issues

Also, I know several college coaches quite well and they laugh at that whole lline about "exposure". Guess what, if you are even remotely decent, whether you play in high school, or tier 1 or wheverever, they know about you. If you think playing for Little Ceasars instead of playing high school hockey give syou more exposure you are under a falso and bad impression, it does not and again the D1 coaches who I know personally literally laugh at that assumption behind closed doors.

[Wisconsin Coach]

AAA Tier 1 is a good option for some players. Having a few options is a good thing, whether it is higher end or lower end of the skill spectrum.
XVegan has seen the AAA option as a good direction in his hockey community. JSR obviously doesn't. Good for both of them, and I am sure neither would want the options to go away because it does cause both associations and AAA teams to continue to provide the best product they can.
If local association hockey is your only option and you feel it is not providing a good experience, the only option is not to play, that is not what anyone wants to see happen.

[muckandgrind]

Muck, when you make fun of how a coach looks and what he wears I have a problem with that. If you are going to get personal in a public forum like this then post your real name along with a picture for everyone else to comment on! I have no problem if someone uses a coaches name to comment on his or her actions as long as it is the truth. In the case of the 99 Torspo coach the truth was stretched and you know it, I was there.

Where have I ever commented on how this guy looks or what he wears? I've never even posted his name. I'm commented on what I have seen of him, and I know that my opinion is shared by quite a few people. Again, does this make him the worst person in the world? Of course not, I just don't care for his coaching style. And there's nothing wrong with ripping him on that. He is a paid employee of MM Hockey, and he is open to criticism.

[JSR]

AAA Tier 1 is a good option for some players. Having a few options is a good thing, whether it is higher end or lower end of the skill spectrum.
XVegan has seen the AAA option as a good direction in his hockey community. JSR obviously doesn't. Good for both of them, and I am sure neither would want the options to go away because it does cause both associations and AAA teams to continue to provide the best product they can.
If local association hockey is your only option and you feel it is not providing a good experience, the only option is not to play, that is not what anyone wants to see happen.

Just to clarify my position I am not against year round Tier 1 hockey. I am not ruling it out for my own son someday if it is an option for him. I merely think it is offered a little too young in some places and I also think, like you, that it's great that we now have alot more options (epsecially for high school age kids) than we had say just ten years ago. I don;t see how that is the bad thing that XVegan has portrayed it to be.

[Wisconsin Coach]

I would guess that XVegan is concerned with the entity that oversees and regulates Wisconsin hockey (WAHA) is now in competition with the teams it is has authority over. With WAHA's expansion of leagues and teams it has
drawn some players away from AAA Tier 1 teams. WAHA should promote options for everyone to play, whether it is a 3 vs 3 house league to AAA.
As for the younger players, let'm play, if it is fun and that is what they want to do, great. AAA spring/summer is about the only hockey available in Wisconsin, Minnesota has many more options but that maybe because the demand is higher.

[ENJOYTHEGAME]

With the right coaching Tier I AAA would be a great option especially for those good in the small associations on the outskirts of the metro where they lack develoment and competition. The kids in the big associations could benefit if stuck behind the political 8 ball. It should be an option for individual parent to decide. The fact that USA hockey and Minnkota hockey have developed a monopoly on hockey participation in minnesota and block AAA Tier I from existing and competing in minnesota is unconstitutional, if someone eventually stands up to the big corporation it should be an interesting legal battle.

That all being said we do have great association hockey where the focus should continue to be on development especially of the young B and C players because as the kids mature that's where you will find many of the future Varsity players, and YES Minnesota High School hockey is the BEST amatuer hockey played anywhere.

[JSR]

I would guess that XVegan is concerned with the entity that oversees and regulates Wisconsin hockey (WAHA) is now in competition with the teams it is has authority over. With WAHA's expansion of leagues and teams it has
drawn some players away from AAA Tier 1 teams. WAHA should promote options for everyone to play, whether it is a 3 vs 3 house league to AAA.
As for the younger players, let'm play, if it is fun and that is what they want to do, great. AAA spring/summer is about the only hockey available in Wisconsin, Minnesota has many more options but that maybe because the demand is higher.

Maybe I am still too young and naive regarding all the poictics. But how is WAHA in competition? They are the oversee-er of all of the hockey in the state correct? I don't see where they should promote or degrade anyone so long as they are playing by the rules. And is "WAHA" drawing players away from Tier 1 or is it the high schools and the appeal of playing the game at a more fun level that is drawign kids away, and the fact that they now can have an option they didn't used to have. If kids are being "drawn away" is it through unscrupulous means or is it jsut that they now have an option they didn't have before, I am not aware of anyoen with a gun to anyone's head. I've also seen several kids who played high school last year go to Tier 1 teams this year. Isn't that the way it should be? Healthy competition for both sides. I would also remind folks that Tier1 AA teams can recruit the whole nation and many do this very well, whereas high school teams cannot, the kids opting for high school and TW are from the towns they grew up in largely (save a very few private school). My young kids dream of playing for their high schools just like we used to in other sports. Isn't that normal in our society?

As for the young kids, I think AAA spring and summer hockey is GREAT even for the mite and squirt age players. It is the mite and squirt age players playing AAA winter hockey that seems too much in my eyes. And from everything I've heard and seen those kids don't develop any better than kids who play association hockey along with spring or sumer hockey stuff at those young ages, so why spend all that extra money? Doesn't make sense to me. The folks who own those organizations are business people and they have every right to try and make a living and if people are willing to play, so be it, it's a free country (I think....). I just think folks don't realize playing year round Tier 1 hockey below Pee Wee's is not going to make your kid anymore (or less) likely to "make it", but they portray it differently.

[Wisconsin Coach]

Team Wisconsin has always been and still is a WAHA created team. The WEHL teams are all also created and managed by WAHA. No where did I state or imply anything negative about this setup. It is another option and I have stated before I am all for players having options.

[JSR]

Really? I did not know that. I thought they were like any other AAA spring team. Registered through WAHA and overseen by them but managed and run by people from different associaitons and cities with coaches from all over. I was not aware WAHA created them. Like I said though, I'm still pretty young in all this for a parent. And I didn't mean to insinuate you had said something negative, I didn't think it came across that way but if it did I apologize.

[hockeyrocks87]

Muck,
My comment wasn't directed at you. After I read it again it did kind of sound that way but that wasn't my intent. I was talking about anyone making comments about a persons appearance in a public forum like this is wrong no mater who it is. I have no problen with anyone making negative comments about a persons coaching style at all, it is your opinion and I respect that even if I disagree with you. Sorry about the confusion.