Minneapolis Hockey

[Rory Taylor]

I was wondering if anyone had any predictions or information about Minneapolis High School Hockey the next couple of years. I believe that while their are only two teams at the high school level the youth association is growing. Not sure on this any help on if this is going to grow or compact? Also the quality has been a big issue with a lot of players leaving for private or open enrollment schools... Any thoughts on this?

[MrBoDangles]

I'm pretty sure Danny Mattson and the 3 Reilly brothers are from the Mpls association. Would have had very strong teams if they all stayed. Anybody else know of Mpls kids in other programs?

[hockeyboys]

Zach Knight, Jake Perpich, Nate Perpich - Bloomington Jefferson

Robby Pigozzi - Holly Angels

Peter Knutson - Minnehaha Academy

Ian Middlebrook - SPA

Any others?

[Night Train]

Reillys are from Chaska.

[DmanDad1980]

It is really too bad to see what is happening to such hockey tradition rich schools in both Minneapolis and St. Paul

The glory days of Southwest, Roosevelt and Washburn are sadly past us for a long time now... I truly hope that at least one or two Minneapolis (St. Paul too!) programs could make a comeback in high school hockey, which would be very good for Minnesota high school hockey...

It would be good hear more about how the youth programs are planning to build interest in hockey again...

[HShockeywatcher]

I can't wait for the day when each Mpls school has their own team. Probably years out, but it should come back with growing population and help in the youth organizations.

[SWPrez]

Zach Knight, Jake Perpich, Nate Perpich - Bloomington Jefferson

Robby Pigozzi - Holly Angels

Peter Knutson - Minnehaha Academy

Ian Middlebrook - SPA

Any others?

Wes Iverson 10th - Breck Varsity
Conor Andrle 10th - Breck Varsity
Anders Jecha 10th - BSM Varsity
Marshall Tema 9th - Providence Varsity
Francisco Hardacker 10th - Edina JV
Zach Hartley 9th - Holy Angels Varsity
Henry Vaughn 10th - Blake Varsity
Gabe MacDonald 10th - BSM JV

Combined with the players previously noted, a pretty decent hockey team of Minneapolis kids when combined with the Minneapolis East and West teams.

re: where Minneapolis high school hockey is going?
Minneapolis is currently at two teams. There is a push by some parents to move to one team....as all Washburn/Southwest players in the pipeline will be going to Southwest/Washburn. While the youth program pipeline will remain thin over the next three to four years, strong squirt and mite numbers (300+) with public school kids should begin feeding into the Minneapolis school team approximately four years out. For 10-11 season, Minneapolis East has only one player coming from the association that will be able to contribute, Minneapolis West has 7 or 8. East will graduate a number of seniors and the team really will be down to a handful of players that can play Varsity level hockey.

MSHSL should consider allowing the Minneapolis teams to compete at the Class A level. It should not be the number of kids in the high schools that determines AA or A, it should be an assessment of the feeder programs to determine where a team should end up. The Minneapolis West or East teams having to go up against Minnetonka, BSM, or Eden Prairie in the first round of regional playoffs is a disservice to all. Hockey is different than football, basketball or baseball --- the feeder program has to be bringing kids at age 5 in order for them to be ready at age 16 --- in Minneapolis, hockey players are a very small number of the student population. They allow Roseau to move up to AA, there should be a petition process to move teams to A under certain circumstances, this is one of them.

[HShockeywatcher]

Zach Knight, Jake Perpich, Nate Perpich - Bloomington Jefferson

Robby Pigozzi - Holly Angels

Peter Knutson - Minnehaha Academy

Ian Middlebrook - SPA

Any others?

Wes Iverson 10th - Breck Varsity
Conor Andrle 10th - Breck Varsity
Anders Jecha 10th - BSM Varsity
Marshall Tema 9th - Providence Varsity
Francisco Hardacker 10th - Edina JV
Zach Hartley 9th - Holy Angels Varsity
Henry Vaughn 10th - Blake Varsity
Gabe MacDonald 10th - BSM JV

Don't know any of these players specifically, but I know there are players who went to private grade schools their whole life who are often sighted as "lost to the private schools." Just something to keep in mind.

Another thing I think about is how currently they are a co-op group. If you are good enough to make the varsity team at those schools listed above would you prefer to play hockey with a group of guys you are in school with or with a group of guys spread out among different schools?

Two things to think about, but hopefully they can get fixed.

[goldy313]

I agree with the problem that only a couple of kids from each school make a team, that's a tough situation. I suppose transpotation also has to be an issue as well, Minneapolis is an awfullly big city.

4 years ago when the MSHSL was realigning sections there was a suggestion to put the two Minneapolis schools in 1AA, 1AA is weak when compared to 6AA where they are now. Putting them in 1AA wouldn't put them in the state tournament by any means but might give them a chance to at least be competitive and win a section game or two. Anything to help build these programs, most metro A sections are better and at least as deep as 1AA so putting them in A might not help and being the sacrificial lamb to Breck or St. Thomas isn't really any better than being one to Wayzata or Eden Prairie.

[HShockeywatcher]

Combined with the players previously noted, a pretty decent hockey team of Minneapolis kids when combined with the Minneapolis East and West teams.

I completely agree. And if they were all to sit in a room and all commit at the same time, it may happen. But everyone deciding individually won't get that to happen.

Hockey is different than football, basketball or baseball ---

"Hockey's different..." Blah, blah, blah. Every sport is different from every other sport. You could have a unique set of rules for every sport because they are all different dynamics that go into them.

That being said, most Minneapolis schools are now in AAA football, some in AA basketball and other sports lower, unless they've opted up like North in basketball. Under the new rules they factor out a portion of your free/reduced lunch students, as their likelihood of participating is significantly less.

The reason they are AA is because they are co-oped. If they each had their own teams, they'd be A.

They allow Roseau to move up to AA, there should be a petition process to move teams to A under certain circumstances, this is one of them.

I agree. I personally feel there should be 64 teams in the top class; if 10 opt up, 10 get pushed down. Making Kennedy be AA is dumb.

Playing devil's advocate; in MN your class affects one thing; which state tournament you play for. Not your conference or any of your regular season play. So, while these teams definitely cannot compete at the AA level, most of them would be a play in game in an A section too.

[karl(east)]

Interesting thread.

I wonder if, due to the giant expenses hockey incurs, the MSHSL should adjust enrollment numbers even more due to free/reduced lunch. Look around at the state; right or wrong, aside from a few communities where hockey is entrenched in the culture, the best hockey programs are all in a) wealthy suburbs, or b) comparatively wealthier sides of cities. While this imbalance occurs in other sports too, it is by far the largest in hockey.

While my knowledge of population trends around the metro area is rudimentary, I also assume that if one were to study the history in depth, one would find that hockey programs rise after an area has seen large population growth, especially if it is an affluent community. Should Minneapolis and St. Paul follow the trends seen in many other metropolitan areas, the next big shifts are going to be back into the cities, and hockey might just rise again in the inner city. It might take 20 or 30 years, but it's a distinct possibility.

[goldy313]

Karl, I think you're right in population trends but will the people who move back have families and will their kids go to public schools? Is that the case in the DC area where there are some affluent areas and the city is more landlocked than the Twin Cities area? I think that's the bigger question.

I too wish the MSHSL would treat hockey a little differetly than other sports because income does play a huge part in comparison to other sports.

[karl(east)]

The public/private question is a big one. While I have absolutely no data on this, I would wonder if the rise of all the private schools in the Metro area over the past decade has at least something to do with this process.

So far, the wealthy people moving back into DC have not put their children into public schools, with the possible exception of a few up in the far northwest corner of the city, which has never been poor. But there are a lot of factors at play here that probably aren't quite the same as they are in the Twin Cities. While I've never been in a Twin City public HS, I am almost positive that DC schools have a lot further to climb to be of a level that would be 'acceptable' to most affluent returnees to the city. I've been inside them, and it's absolutely frightening. And while there is open enrollment within the District itself, to my knowledge kids can’t open enroll across state lines in the high-quality suburban districts in Virginia or Maryland. There’s also (possibly) a racial dynamic at play here; not that it wouldn’t exist in the Twin Cities, but it is probably far more pronounced here.

My guess is that, as the gentrification/urban renewal (whatever you want to call it) process continues, eventually the affluent population will grow enough to the point where (forgive my crude and perhaps insensitive language) they can “take over” the public schools in a given area and “haul them up” so that they meet the expected standards. It’ll be a very slow process--that’s why I guessed 20-30 years. Maybe even more. But eventually I expect neighborhoods will reach some sort of tipping point. Of course, I could be completely wrong; this in an incredibly heavy topic, and there are an awful lot of factors at play. Maybe the public schools will shrink and perhaps even collapse during the transition period (enrollment is way down in DCPS over the past decade), leaving cities with lots of small private and charter schools that at least initially would have little interest in sports teams; that could open up an entirely new can of worms.

When I was at the East-Minnetonka game last week, they had a nice little pre-game ceremony for a program designed in the memory of a deceased Minnetonka student that seeks to promote hockey in the inner city. From our perspective, I suppose this should be the real goal--making hockey accessible to anyone who wants to play, regardless of costs, and saving the socioeconomic discussions for another time and place. Someone might argue that I have my priorities backwards there, but this is a hockey forum, and I’m trying to stay on topic. And I don’t think anyone would disagree that making hockey accessible to all is a far more attainable goal right now than the elimination of economic inequality.

[Rory Taylor]

i do believe that newton fuller is the only bantam A last year from the mpls park/washburn super association to stay in public school. the rest either where at or went to private schools. this year at the bantam A level is the same. jack larson i believe is the only bantam A going to a public school which would be Minneapolis South. I have foreseen the problem with Minneapolis East for a while as they have only one 9th grader in the whole program. some of this has to do with non-related hockey things but ive looked at some programs in the cities and it does look promising, well to an extent. the minneapolis program of mites has a very large group with washburn around 130 to 150 and southwest having around 150 to 160. These numbers included with about 8 or 9 squirt teams is nice to see. I also have personally been involved with the program and the development level is continually getting better. so minneapolis hockey is on the upturn hopefully. i would like to see the 1AA happen. seeing as how both these schools usually (unfortunately) have losing records and some players have dubbed the play-in game in section 6AA east vs. west for the right to get their ass kicked by minnetonka or eden prairie. honestly i don't see why 1AA would be a problem with combined enrollment for the West team it reaches about the same as Eden prairie's high school... just more money. So yes i believe some very good people saw this coming and hopefully have prevented a once proud tradition from becoming extinct. i also know that the park system is experiencing quite a few number of players from parks across the city. with squirt ages reaching between 100 to 120 players city wide. and losing about 15 to 30 players every level up. hopefully will once again see the rivalries like southwest vs. washburn or washburn vs. south again.

[HShockeywatcher]

Interesting thread.

I wonder if, due to the giant expenses hockey incurs, the MSHSL should adjust enrollment numbers even more due to free/reduced lunch. Look around at the state; right or wrong, aside from a few communities where hockey is entrenched in the culture, the best hockey programs are all in a) wealthy suburbs, or b) comparatively wealthier sides of cities. While this imbalance occurs in other sports too, it is by far the largest in hockey.

Karl, couple comments from me:
1. Again, I think this is one of those things where you could make a rule for each sport that would be specific. I agree 100% of what you're saying, but in playing devil's advocate that is one thing you'd say. Plus, name a sport and you can give plenty of examples where the best programs are a) in wealthy areas (like Edina/EP in hockey) or b) where the sport is big and part of the life (like Warroad/Roseau in hockey).

2. I would throw out there that it is also a school issue that fixing would do more than fixing the program itself.
a. If kid A grew up in Mpls and kid B grew up in Inver Grove Heights (random school I know about) and both were really good at hockey, which do you think would rather stick and go to their home school and which do you think would prefer to somewhere else?
b. In the last year I talked to a friend's son who is around 10 and playing youth hockey. Lives in Mpls. We were talking about school and he said he wants to try to open enroll to Edina because he doesn't want to go to his home school.
c. Fix the schools, the issue is helped.

Interesting issue, not sure what the solution for us board dwellers is.

[karl(east)]

Karl, couple comments from me:
1. Again, I think this is one of those things where you could make a rule for each sport that would be specific. I agree 100% of what you're saying, but in playing devil's advocate that is one thing you'd say. Plus, name a sport and you can give plenty of examples where the best programs are a) in wealthy areas (like Edina/EP in hockey) or b) where the sport is big and part of the life (like Warroad/Roseau in hockey).

2. I would throw out there that it is also a school issue that fixing would do more than fixing the program itself.
a. If kid A grew up in Mpls and kid B grew up in Inver Grove Heights (random school I know about) and both were really good at hockey, which do you think would rather stick and go to their home school and which do you think would prefer to somewhere else?
b. In the last year I talked to a friend's son who is around 10 and playing youth hockey. Lives in Mpls. We were talking about school and he said he wants to try to open enroll to Edina because he doesn't want to go to his home school.
c. Fix the schools, the issue is helped.

Interesting issue, not sure what the solution for us board dwellers is.

1. Maybe that is the solution; maybe we do need more sport-specific rules. I'm really not familiar enough with the states of other sports in Minnesota to go on and on. But the bottom line on hockey is that it is by far the most expensive of the sports, and the ramifications of that fact aren't too hard to see.

2. While I agree completely with your assessment of the incentives at play in school choice, I do question how realistic school reform is. I'm no expert on the topic, but I did take a very involved course on it last semester, and I've spent some time in DC public schools. The experience made me very pessimistic about the effectiveness of school reform. I'll stop there since this isn't the place for a political discussion, though. Perhaps we could have an education pedagogy thread in the cafe...now that'd be a change of pace for this forum.

[HShockeywatcher]

Karl, couple comments from me:
1. Again, I think this is one of those things where you could make a rule for each sport that would be specific. I agree 100% of what you're saying, but in playing devil's advocate that is one thing you'd say. Plus, name a sport and you can give plenty of examples where the best programs are a) in wealthy areas (like Edina/EP in hockey) or b) where the sport is big and part of the life (like Warroad/Roseau in hockey).

2. I would throw out there that it is also a school issue that fixing would do more than fixing the program itself.
a. If kid A grew up in Mpls and kid B grew up in Inver Grove Heights (random school I know about) and both were really good at hockey, which do you think would rather stick and go to their home school and which do you think would prefer to somewhere else?
b. In the last year I talked to a friend's son who is around 10 and playing youth hockey. Lives in Mpls. We were talking about school and he said he wants to try to open enroll to Edina because he doesn't want to go to his home school.
c. Fix the schools, the issue is helped.

Interesting issue, not sure what the solution for us board dwellers is.

1. Maybe that is the solution; maybe we do need more sport-specific rules. I'm really not familiar enough with the states of other sports in Minnesota to go on and on. But the bottom line on hockey is that it is by far the most expensive of the sports, and the ramifications of that fact aren't too hard to see.

2. While I agree completely with your assessment of the incentives at play in school choice, I do question how realistic school reform is. I'm no expert on the topic, but I did take a very involved course on it last semester, and I've spent some time in DC public schools. The experience made me very pessimistic about the effectiveness of school reform. I'll stop there since this isn't the place for a political discussion, though. Perhaps we could have an education pedagogy thread in the cafe...now that'd be a change of pace for this forum.

1.
a. Of the big 4, I agree. Beyond that, there's nordic and apline I'd say compete. Swimming is also bad with pool time.
b. There are also the intangibles that aren't measurable across the board. Yes, a soccer ball is all you need to play the game, but look around the state and you notice the better programs are in wealthier areas. Those students are able to be in more leagues, camps, etc that take more time, money, etc. Pick a sport, you can say this about it.

2. Agreed; didn't say it was possible/easy, just said it's the solution (in my opinion) on a whole.

[blindref]

Regarding the A vs AA suggestions, I've always wondered how schools like Breck and STA dance around the same rules that Public Co-op schools are held to.
The Minneapolis schools have to play AA because of the size of their Co-op enrollment.
River Lakes (five small schools), Becker-Big Lake, and MAML (Monticello, Annadale and Maple Lake) all need to combine multiple schools to field a somewhat competitive team.
They all have to play AA because they have one kid from Albany or Annadale and must count every kid in that school towards their Team's total enrollment.
So every Spring two of these three teams slug it out in the play in game and the winner gets to play either Moorhead or Roseau. (Moorhead beat MAML 25-0 a few years ago in this game).

Why don't private schools like Breck and STA have to count potential enrollments from Champlin, Prior Lake, Eagan and any other School Districts they pull kids from?
Aren't these "small" private schools technically just Co-ops pulled from huge cities or suburbs?

[HShockeywatcher]

Regarding the A vs AA suggestions, I've always wondered how schools like Breck and STA dance around the same rules that Public Co-op schools are held to.
The Minneapolis schools have to play AA because of the size of their Co-op enrollment.
River Lakes (five small schools), Becker-Big Lake, and MAML (Monticello, Annadale and Maple Lake) all need to combine multiple schools to field a somewhat competitive team.
They all have to play AA because they have one kid from Albany or Annadale and must count every kid in that school towards their Team's total enrollment.
So every Spring two of these three teams slug it out in the play in game and the winner gets to play either Moorhead or Roseau. (Moorhead beat MAML 25-0 a few years ago in this game).

Why don't private schools like Breck and STA have to count potential enrollments from Champlin, Prior Lake, Eagan and any other School Districts they pull kids from?
Aren't these "small" private schools technically just Co-ops pulled from huge cities or suburbs?

This isn't a recruiting thread, go start one if you want to talk about that.

In theory, regardless of the reasons for students attending the school, the number to draw from in any school still reflects the possible student population who could play.

Like I said in reference to the Mpls programs, all it affects is which trophy you chase at the end of the year.

There is open enrollment, so really, every school should be AA, right?