Squirt Hockey Standings

[High Off The Glass]

There was a similar debate last year. I will try to convey my thoughts as clearly as I can.
First, I hear a lot of the argument of "if football does it, and baseball, why is hockey different???" You answered your own question, hockey IS DIFFERENT. The game of hockey requires a great deal more skills as well as more difficult skills than does baseball, or football. For instance, humans naturally walk and run, they do not naturally skate. For this reason,

I believe that kids at this level are still largely developing their personal skills.

Most players at this level are not even completely comfortable skating much less stick handling. We all know that the teams who win at this level(and that is the purpose of having standings, to see who wins more) play a system. The team with the better system will be the top team. In order to have a good system, you must practice it. If you spend more of your ice time practicing your system, you will spend less on skill developement.
On the other hand, there is only so much you can do with a flyball. The shortstop fields the ball and throws to the best base.......a lineman has to know wich way to push his opposition.....a quarterback is told who to throw or hand to.

Players at all levels (even NHL) spend most of their time developing personal skills. I have yet to see a squirt team, at any level, run what I would consider true systems. "The team with the better system will be the top team"---I don't buy it. The better team will have better hockey players playing better hockey lead by better hockey coaches...simple as that.

Defense---Define to me the hockey term "systems". What do you consider a system? Is a simple 2-1-2 forcheck a "system". Is a center breakout considered a "system". I think you get my drift.

[dogeatdog1]

I pose a theory that hockey IS Different.. you can see a michael Jordan or a Bo Jackson Jump from sport to sport or start at a older age in football basketball or baseball. Athletes that can run jump and have great hand eye... Hockey doesn't get this because the mode of transportation is unnatural and needs to be learned over a long period of time. I have a few buddies that are phenominal athelets that look like baby deer on skates. I can keep up with them on a hoop court or a football field eventhough I shoot three pointers like a hockey player I still can get a shot off and make a few hoops. After all my thoughts on dynamics of hockey I think that we don't need standings at Squirts . They get that early enough when they move to peewees and we all know where the teams stand anyway.

[elliott70]

"bet there ARE some that worry about it in your district."
Sorry I did not clarify, the coaches and administrators dont get worked up, what the parents do is their business as long as they stay under control.

[elliott70]

Question: Is it considered getting "worked up" if one asks the question: Why is it OK for 10 year olds in other sports to "keep score" and have end of the season playoffs (which they love, btw) and for some reason in hockey it's considered taboo? Honest question.

I think squirts keep score.
I think most associations (for house leagues) and districts (for the A & B teams) have a year end tourney.

MH's point is that they don't want to emphasze these events. The game as fun is the reward. And by playing the game for fun with less emphasis on winning/losing/ first place; individaul skill develpment can be more of an emphasis.

[Air Force 1]

Elliot,
Are the D16 Pee Wee, 12U, Bantam, 14U standings going to be posted on the Bemidji website again this year?

[elliott70]

Elliot,
Are the D16 Pee Wee, 12U, Bantam, 14U standings going to be posted on the Bemidji website again this year?

Yes, I believe so.
They go to Jeff Solheim, who has not received many.
A call to all assn has been sent out again.

D16 now has a web page, but Ihave yet to put things on it as I am not asure how it works and have no one step up to be the 'guy that runs it'.

[High Off The Glass]

I pose a theory that hockey IS Different.. you can see a michael Jordan or a Bo Jackson Jump from sport to sport or start at a older age in football basketball or baseball. Athletes that can run jump and have great hand eye... Hockey doesn't get this because the mode of transportation is unnatural and needs to be learned over a long period of time. I have a few buddies that are phenominal athelets that look like baby deer on skates. I can keep up with them on a hoop court or a football field eventhough I shoot three pointers like a hockey player I still can get a shot off and make a few hoops. After all my thoughts on dynamics of hockey I think that we don't need standings at Squirts . They get that early enough when they move to peewees and we all know where the teams stand anyway.

A good athlete is a good athlete period. I played high school hockey with a guy who started skating as a first year Bantam and made Varsity his senior year and went on to play college Division 3 hockey in MN for four years. If we all know the standings anyway, why not keep standings, we keep score in games. If squirt games are just a reward for working hard in practice, then why wear jerseys, have refs, travel for tournaments. What are we trying to protect the players from?

[defense]

If anyone thinks that a squirt hockey team has developed enough skill that they are ready for a "league" situation, go ahead and get on it with your local hockey board. They will likely have no problem explaining to you that squirts need to worry more about the basics of hockey than winning games. Most kids this age are playing their first games on full ice. Most kids this age are playing their first games on the road. Most kids this age need to learn simple passing. Most kids this age need to learn a proper wrist shot, or snap shot. Most kids this age need a lot of work on stick handling. Most kids this age are doing very well if they can do proper crossovers. Most kids this age have never even heard of defense or backchecking. All of the above is way more important than performing a controlled scrimmage to teach the kids what they could do better when in a game, that will come later. Give me a group of fundamentally sound 10th graders who still have creativity any day ahead of a group of players that have been told exactly what to do on the ice in any situation.
If you are honestly going to say that playing hockey is as easy as baseball or football, I'll let you believe what you want to. Just do this: compare your squirt hockey player's development in hockey to that of his basketball playing classmate in basketball. Or his own development in baseball.

[muckandgrind]

If anyone thinks that a squirt hockey team has developed enough skill that they are ready for a "league" situation, go ahead and get on it with your local hockey board. They will likely have no problem explaining to you that squirts need to worry more about the basics of hockey than winning games. Most kids this age are playing their first games on full ice. Most kids this age are playing their first games on the road. Most kids this age need to learn simple passing. Most kids this age need to learn a proper wrist shot, or snap shot. Most kids this age need a lot of work on stick handling. Most kids this age are doing very well if they can do proper crossovers. Most kids this age have never even heard of defense or backchecking. All of the above is way more important than performing a controlled scrimmage to teach the kids what they could do better when in a game, that will come later. Give me a group of fundamentally sound 10th graders who still have creativity any day ahead of a group of players that have been told exactly what to do on the ice in any situation.
If you are honestly going to say that playing hockey is as easy as baseball or football, I'll let you believe what you want to. Just do this: compare your squirt hockey player's development in hockey to that of his basketball playing classmate in basketball. Or his own development in baseball.

Have you ever seen a basketball game played by 10 year olds? I watched my nephew play a few years back and the score half way through the game was 6-4. Enough said. Every kid out there looked atrocious shooting and dribbling the basketball, most shots didn't go anywhere NEAR the basket, but it was still fun for them to play and fun for the parents to watch.. Same goes for football and baseball.

It shouldn't all be about "development", it should also be about fun. Kids have fun playing games. Alot more fun than doing cross-over drills in practice. They allow the Squirts to play in regular season tournaments, there is no reason why they shouldn't allow them to play in a post season tournament as well...it's not like it's going to retard their future development or anything. Somebody please explain the harm it will do to the kids.

[High Off The Glass]

If anyone thinks that a squirt hockey team has developed enough skill that they are ready for a "league" situation, go ahead and get on it with your local hockey board. They will likely have no problem explaining to you that squirts need to worry more about the basics of hockey than winning games. Most kids this age are playing their first games on full ice. Most kids this age are playing their first games on the road. Most kids this age need to learn simple passing. Most kids this age need to learn a proper wrist shot, or snap shot. Most kids this age need a lot of work on stick handling. Most kids this age are doing very well if they can do proper crossovers. Most kids this age have never even heard of defense or backchecking. All of the above is way more important than performing a controlled scrimmage to teach the kids what they could do better when in a game, that will come later. Give me a group of fundamentally sound 10th graders who still have creativity any day ahead of a group of players that have been told exactly what to do on the ice in any situation.
If you are honestly going to say that playing hockey is as easy as baseball or football, I'll let you believe what you want to. Just do this: compare your squirt hockey player's development in hockey to that of his basketball playing classmate in basketball. Or his own development in baseball.

Once again...We play games and KEEP SCORE at the Squirt level already. When kids, or even adults, play any type of game we keep score or it's not considered a game. Last time I checked, hockey is considered or classified as a GAME. Last winter, my boys held a local pond hockey game in my back yard. I went down there to see how they were doing and asked who's winning. They were in final game of a three game mini tournament. Their ages ranged from 6-11 years old.

The fear Defense is expressing concerning keeping league standings turning squirt hockey games into three periods of system play with no skilled players on the ice is unfounded. If league standings pushes coaches efforts into winning games, I as a coach, would want to have better skilled players and would, and do, push skills harder in practice.

[elliott70]

It shouldn't all be about "development", it should also be about fun. Kids have fun playing games. Alot more fun than doing cross-over drills in practice. They allow the Squirts to play in regular season tournaments, there is no reason why they shouldn't allow them to play in a post season tournament as well...it's not like it's going to retard their future development or anything. Somebody please explain the harm it will do to the kids.

I think most if not all districts have a year-end tournament for squirts.

[InigoMontoya]

Not all.

[defense]

muckandgrind and high off the glass: To each his own.
I am pretty sure that there have been leagues in the past for squirts with sanctioned tournements in the post season. I am pretty positive there have even been these type of things for mites. They don't seem to be around anymore. I wonder why????
I don't think that not having standings takes away the fun that the kids have. It didn't seem to matter to me and my buddies when we played squirt hockey. Actually, when we whent to peewees we never really knew where we were in the standings, though I am pretty sure that a few dads likely knew....day to day even........for peewee hockey......

[High Off The Glass]

muckandgrind and high off the glass: To each his own.
I am pretty sure that there have been leagues in the past for squirts with sanctioned tournements in the post season. I am pretty positive there have even been these type of things for mites. They don't seem to be around anymore. I wonder why????
I don't think that not having standings takes away the fun that the kids have. It didn't seem to matter to me and my buddies when we played squirt hockey. Actually, when we whent to peewees we never really knew where we were in the standings, though I am pretty sure that a few dads likely knew....day to day even........for peewee hockey......

The point that is being lost in translation is this: What are we protecting the squirt aged players from? We keep standings at the squirt level and it hurts who? Everyone knows already, based on win/lost record, where every team stands, why not print it on a website and let everyone kill time at work and look at it. Let's quit hugging trees and face reality, someone will lose and someone will win. It's life...

[hockeyday]

Does anyone have any squirt A scores from the superior tournament

[skills_coach1]

What are we protecting the squirt aged players from? We keep standings at the squirt level and it hurts who? Everyone knows already, based on win/lost record, where every team stands, why not print it on a website and let everyone kill time at work and look at it. Let's quit hugging trees and face reality, someone will lose and someone will win. It's life...

From the incessant dribble the parents want to spew out; bragging on their kids standings in a league.... the stats that follow and looking out for their own kids' future...... A place on the high school team, etc. etc.....

At what point do we need to make this a serious endeavor rather than just a game to learn skills... I do understand your point about people keeping track anyway. Having coached at this level, I have seen it. There is no question the kids keep score for an individual game. Beyond that, how important is it? I mean really for a 9-11 yr old????

But, if you deny the fact that additional pressure (on the kids eventually mind you) comes with keeping standings................. Then I guess, I agree to disagree. Always a heated discussion when these topics are on board.... Understandably so, for some or even most of us, it is our kids we're talking about...

[JSR]

What are we protecting the squirt aged players from? We keep standings at the squirt level and it hurts who? Everyone knows already, based on win/lost record, where every team stands, why not print it on a website and let everyone kill time at work and look at it. Let's quit hugging trees and face reality, someone will lose and someone will win. It's life...

From the incessant dribble the parents want to spew out; bragging on their kids standings in a league.... the stats that follow and looking out for their own kids' future...... A place on the high school team, etc. etc.....

At what point do we need to make this a serious endeavor rather than just a game to learn skills... I do understand your point about people keeping track anyway. Having coached at this level, I have seen it. There is no question the kids keep score for an individual game. Beyond that, how important is it? I mean really for a 9-11 yr old????

But, if you deny the fact that additional pressure (on the kids eventually mind you) comes with keeping standings................. Then I guess, I agree to disagree. Always a heated discussion when these topics are on board.... Understandably so, for some or even most of us, it is our kids we're talking about...

I am from Wisconsin. As you know we have state tournaments for Mite's on up. I have yet to see where these tournaments cause our coaches to develop systems, I have yet to see where these tournaments have been a detriment to the children. For many participating in a youth state tournement becomes the highlight of their hockey careers and a lifelong memory that they all look back on fondly. It's a big deal to the kids and a proud moment for those who participate but it's also no more or less detrimental to any thing else in hockey. At the end of the day it's about how the parents treat it with their children. The children who have detrimental parents are going to have that regardless of whetehr anyone is keeping score and regardless of whether or not you do or do not have a state tournament. For my part, I am glad we have the state tournament at eh young ages, my son has been lucky enough to have participated in two thus far and both have been an absolute blast for him. Ask him and his face lights up whenever he talks about it, and in neither case did his team win the tournament

[High Off The Glass]

What are we protecting the squirt aged players from? We keep standings at the squirt level and it hurts who? Everyone knows already, based on win/lost record, where every team stands, why not print it on a website and let everyone kill time at work and look at it. Let's quit hugging trees and face reality, someone will lose and someone will win. It's life...

From the incessant dribble the parents want to spew out; bragging on their kids standings in a league.... the stats that follow and looking out for their own kids' future...... A place on the high school team, etc. etc.....

At what point do we need to make this a serious endeavor rather than just a game to learn skills... I do understand your point about people keeping track anyway. Having coached at this level, I have seen it. There is no question the kids keep score for an individual game. Beyond that, how important is it? I mean really for a 9-11 yr old????

But, if you deny the fact that additional pressure (on the kids eventually mind you) comes with keeping standings................. Then I guess, I agree to disagree. Always a heated discussion when these topics are on board.... Understandably so, for some or even most of us, it is our kids we're talking about...

I am from Wisconsin. As you know we have state tournaments for Mite's on up. I have yet to see where these tournaments cause our coaches to develop systems, I have yet to see where these tournaments have been a detriment to the children. For many participating in a youth state tournement becomes the highlight of their hockey careers and a lifelong memory that they all look back on fondly. It's a big deal to the kids and a proud moment for those who participate but it's also no more or less detrimental to any thing else in hockey. At the end of the day it's about how the parents treat it with their children. The children who have detrimental parents are going to have that regardless of whetehr anyone is keeping score and regardless of whether or not you do or do not have a state tournament. For my part, I am glad we have the state tournament at eh young ages, my son has been lucky enough to have participated in two thus far and both have been an absolute blast for him. Ask him and his face lights up whenever he talks about it, and in neither case did his team win the tournament

I would say I agree, but your from Wisconsin, so mind your own business

[defense]

I will say: Games are good. Competition is good. If the players never play games, they will never learn why they are learning to play hockey, that drive is very important. I am obviously a big skills guy, I however do not turn a blind eye to the fact that we need games and competition. I actually am a critic of our own local association for not playing enough games. Seems to me that it makes sense for termites and mites to play a regular "house league". Have a game on Saturday morning. The powers that be don't see it that way. They have the kids skating drills and learnign this and that but you can't see that drive, that doing something for a purpose. I am a big supporter of mixing the kids up in their age groups. Seems to me that first year skaters generally would look up to the second year guys and want to try and do what they do.
The local mites, of which the eldest son is a first year did very few "house league" games in two years of termites, and now this year in mites. They have "teams". Four different color jersys with a local business sponsering them, they just don't do the league thing with regular games. Maybe the numbers are down, etc..... they still could have scrimmages on a regular basis which they didn't and don't. My feeling is that if they're out there playing hockey, they should actually play hockey, 3 on 3, 4 on 4 etc. This year they also somehow got the bright idea to split up the into age groups, 1st year players on that end, 2nd over there and they hardly ever intermix. Here's my problem: The powers that be have scheduled games or scrimmages with neighboring associations. Not ahead of the season, just making it up as they go. The first one was OK, true scrimmage, kinda having fun. The problem showed up in the second one. They held a true 3 period game with referees and the whole bit. Great, they get experience right???? Nothing was proven for anybody. The boys from our town didn't look like they had the slightest idea of what was going on, I'd bet some didn't even know that they were tryign to put a puck into the goal of the opposite team. They pretty well just sat around and watched with the dear in the headlights look. I know, they're mites, get over it. I admit it was ammusing. My concern has nothing to do with who won the game, my concern is with the fact that we drove an hour away on a sunday morning for nothing.
So yes, I believe that games are important, and winnign and losing is important and competition is important. I am not an "everyone wins" guy. Not even close. My concern is simply that at the squirt age level I feel that the boys should be concentrating more effort on skills than a game plan. Now I'm kicking the horse.... Let's remember that hockey is a game in which every player's individual skills get put to use for the betterment of the team, you need skills in order to put them into a team.
If keeping track of standings wouldn't change the way a coach may coach, in other words, if he still would spend as much time on skill developement as he does, fine, I have no problem with it. I, do however have my doubts, as unfounded as they may be. I would like to know what some of you think of the coments made by Don Lucia a few years ago about youth hockey: http://www.winterclub.com/rightthing.html
Go ahead and have competition, but let the kids be kids in doing so.
or: www.ahcahockey.com/news/0203/0207skil.html also check out the "hep" program on www.minnesotahockey.org

I guess the main point is that keeping standings in Squirts is another step away from skills...

[silentbutdeadly3139]

I will say: Games are good. Competition is good. If the players never play games, they will never learn why they are learning to play hockey, that drive is very important. I am obviously a big skills guy, I however do not turn a blind eye to the fact that we need games and competition. I actually am a critic of our own local association for not playing enough games. Seems to me that it makes sense for termites and mites to play a regular "house league". Have a game on Saturday morning. The powers that be don't see it that way. They have the kids skating drills and learnign this and that but you can't see that drive, that doing something for a purpose. I am a big supporter of mixing the kids up in their age groups. Seems to me that first year skaters generally would look up to the second year guys and want to try and do what they do.
The local mites, of which the eldest son is a first year did very few "house league" games in two years of termites, and now this year in mites. They have "teams". Four different color jersys with a local business sponsering them, they just don't do the league thing with regular games. Maybe the numbers are down, etc..... they still could have scrimmages on a regular basis which they didn't and don't. My feeling is that if they're out there playing hockey, they should actually play hockey, 3 on 3, 4 on 4 etc. This year they also somehow got the bright idea to split up the into age groups, 1st year players on that end, 2nd over there and they hardly ever intermix. Here's my problem: The powers that be have scheduled games or scrimmages with neighboring associations. Not ahead of the season, just making it up as they go. The first one was OK, true scrimmage, kinda having fun. The problem showed up in the second one. They held a true 3 period game with referees and the whole bit. Great, they get experience right???? Nothing was proven for anybody. The boys from our town didn't look like they had the slightest idea of what was going on, I'd bet some didn't even know that they were tryign to put a puck into the goal of the opposite team. They pretty well just sat around and watched with the dear in the headlights look. I know, they're mites, get over it. I admit it was ammusing. My concern has nothing to do with who won the game, my concern is with the fact that we drove an hour away on a sunday morning for nothing.
So yes, I believe that games are important, and winnign and losing is important and competition is important. I am not an "everyone wins" guy. Not even close. My concern is simply that at the squirt age level I feel that the boys should be concentrating more effort on skills than a game plan. Now I'm kicking the horse.... Let's remember that hockey is a game in which every player's individual skills get put to use for the betterment of the team, you need skills in order to put them into a team.
If keeping track of standings wouldn't change the way a coach may coach, in other words, if he still would spend as much time on skill developement as he does, fine, I have no problem with it. I, do however have my doubts, as unfounded as they may be. I would like to know what some of you think of the coments made by Don Lucia a few years ago about youth hockey: http://www.winterclub.com/rightthing.html
Go ahead and have competition, but let the kids be kids in doing so.
or: www.ahcahockey.com/news/0203/0207skil.html also check out the "hep" program on www.minnesotahockey.org

I guess the main point is that keeping standings in Squirts is another step away from skills...

Did the kids have fun ? at the end of the day thats all that matters. Lucia and many others seem to be talking out of both sides of his mouth. They say too much emphasis on games and scores and points to the European model where kids don't play games they emphasize skill development and practice ... then he pines for the old days when kids when kids would go to the outdoor rink and skate and PLAY GAMES. They didn't go out and set up cones and do edge work. Like everything there needs to be a balance, but games and standings in and of itself are not bad ... it WHY the kids play.

[sinbin]

This forum veered from standings to state tournaments, so with apologies to the original poster, here is my opinion. I think this is about as good as can be as it now stands. Keeping game scores and having a district tournament (if all disctricts do) is a nice segue into keeping standings and having state tournaments. Also, the B2's and C's don't have state tournaments, so probably less than half the teams play to go to state in a given season, anyway. If you play from Mites through HS, Squirts are about the halfway point and making the transition from Squirt to PW at about 12 years old seems about right (on average). From PW's to HS, that still gives you 7 years of standings and state tournaments to strive for. Football has no youth state tournament while soccer starts at about 11 and baseball at 12, so hockey seems in line with those sports. The game at this level is about development, fun, and yes, competitiveness, but you'll still have 7 more years to keep those competitive fires burning and more, for those few that play beyond HS. Not to make this subject veer any further, but I would push for B2's to have a state tournament much harder than for Squirts.