Coming to a rink near you?

[SWPrez]

Found this article interesting:

http://www.acr-news.com/news/news.asp?id=671

It is a rink in Scotland. Most rinks built in 1970 and 1980 use R22 refrigerant (freon) to chill the ice. As of right now, R22 is slated to be no longer made in a few years due to 'global warming' and 'ozone depletion' issues.

As many of our MN rinks are 1970's and 80's....this has the potential to shut many of our rinks down, or make ice prohibitably expensive in a few years.

My research shows that there aren't many options available to our local rinks that use R22 when it can no longer be manufactured. Here they are:

1) Buy recycled R22 at $20+ per pound. Currently, R22 runs $5 per pound and the typical arena setup uses 6000 pounds per year. Anticipate hourly ice doubling (this is pre-cap and trade).

2) Convert the system over to a newer system.....meaning shut down the rink for a year and expend a million dollars to upgrade.

3) Close the rink.

Are the days of outdoor hockey's return coming back sooner than we think? Anyone else have info on this or have seen this concern raised at your local rinks? Curious about what rinks are doing about this looming horizon. Anyone think MN Hockey or USA Hockey should be involved in lobbying government officials?

[Chuck Norris Fan]

THE SKY IS FALLING!!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!

[VicKevlar]

Murrayfield was being renovated anyway for the Ice Homecoming this fall:
Can't have those big Canadien teams show up and play in dump.

http://edinburgh-capitals.com/

The place really needed it also.......last time we were there for a game (Sep 06) the place was really falling apart. Most of the seating was original (70 years) and more often than not you got slivers from the wood. At the end of the game, we were picking paint chips out of our hair that fell from the ceiling. In addition, at least half of the glass was chipped or had cracks.

I've seen some worst rinks in Scotland (Dundee e.g.), but Murrayfield really needed the work and the Homecoming tournament spurred the $$$ for investment.

Renovation pics:

http://www.murrayfieldicerinkltd.co.uk/id9.html

[SWPrez]

Chuck,

I am not being alarmist. I had a rink that I buy ice from tell me that this is a serious concern and that many other rinks around the area have the same cooling systems that use R22 (Freon). This rink may shut down if they have to spend a million bucks to fix.

Mark my words....unless they come up with a miracle replacement for R22 (which is possible), there are going to be some major ice issues for many associations beginning in 2-3 years as the manufacturing of R22 is phased out.

I am curious if anyone has heard about this through their local rink yet and what those rinks plan on doing. Again, you can call me proactive....yes...alarmist....no.

[cooper26]

Chuck,

I am not being alarmist. I had a rink that I buy ice from tell me that this is a serious concern and that many other rinks around the area have the same cooling systems that use R22 (Freon). This rink may shut down if they have to spend a million bucks to fix.

Mark my words....unless they come up with a miracle replacement for R22 (which is possible), there are going to be some major ice issues for many associations beginning in 2-3 years as the manufacturing of R22 is phased out.

I am curious if anyone has heard about this through their local rink yet and what those rinks plan on doing. Again, you can call me proactive....yes...alarmist....no.

Don't take it personally SWPrez. It's just that people here are not used to seeing too many reasonable posts from reasonable people.

[Mac15]

SWPrez,

The original Graham Arena was converted to GeoThermal (when the newest rink was being built) and was shut down only during the months that it normally "iced out" for fairgrounds use. If you are interested I can give you some contact names of people involved in the transition.

[council member retired]

[quote="Mac15"]SWPrez,

The original Graham Arena was converted to GeoThermal (when the newest rink was being built) and was shut down only during the months that it normally "iced out" for fairgrounds use. If you are interested I can give you some contact names of people involved in the transition.[/quote]

HEY a call out to MAC15... Thank you for offering your experience and know how. Something many posts are missing.

[DMom]

SWPrez,

The original Graham Arena was converted to GeoThermal (when the newest rink was being built) and was shut down only during the months that it normally "iced out" for fairgrounds use. If you are interested I can give you some contact names of people involved in the transition.

HEY a call out to MAC15... Thank you for offering your experience and know how. Something many posts are missing.

[SWPrez]

SWPrez,

The original Graham Arena was converted to GeoThermal (when the newest rink was being built) and was shut down only during the months that it normally "iced out" for fairgrounds use. If you are interested I can give you some contact names of people involved in the transition.

Thanks Mac,

I think I tracked down the company that did the work:
http://www.earthenergyandice.com/facilities.html

A couple simple questions you might be able to answer:
What did it cost to convert to geothermal, and did they have to rip up any piping/concrete to redo the cooling system in the floor?

[C-dad]

Brief lesson on ice rinks.

The pipes under the ice can be either filled with refrigerant or with brine (water/glycol mix). If the refrigerant is in the pipes, this will be a bigger issue, if it is not then the refrigerant is just at the plant. There are several new blends of refrigerants that are now being marketed as "drop-in" replacement for R-22 (drop-in means the plants don't have to be reconfigured for a new refrigerant). While these replacements may not be cheap, they are cheaper than a new plant.

Also, when R-11 (used in large chillers serving large building cooling plants) was being phased out, there were dire warnings issued about how expensive it would get and how you wouldn't even be able to get it. The price is lower now than it was before being phased out. This is due to large stocks of reclaimed material from plants that were phased out.

Just FYI

[Mac15]

I received an email from Shavonn Eastlee of Harty Mechanical today. They did the retrofit of the original Graham Arena building (1969) and did the mechanical for the newest Graham Arena 4 building (2007). I can pass along contact information if anyone is interested. This was a part of their response.

" Graham 1 conversion was a stand alone project, totally separate from the work done at Graham 4. Our project cost for Graham 1 was slightly less because we were already on-site doing the work at Graham 4. We did not have mobilization costs, also we used Olmsted County to do the excavation for both Graham 4 and 1, this kept the excavation costs down for the well fields.

The floor piping in Graham 1 was left alone, except for the new headers installed to accommodate the new geothermal system. This piping changes saved our pumping consumption considerably. This concrete in that floor is so thick, the cost to remove would have been astronomical and there had been no leaks in the floor system. The ice making system was replaced, the well field was installed, the common spaces heating/cooling systems were replaced and the fluid cooler replaced.

As for refrigerant levels. Each Ice Kube unit uses less than 25 lbs of R-404A, which is a green refrigerant. Both Graham 1 and 4 have (4) Ice Kube units. This total is less than 100 lbs of refrigerant in the system.

A conventional system typically has between 300-400 lbs of R22 refrigerant in each compressor. Most systems have 2 compressors for a total of 600-800 lbs of refrigerant in the system.

The R-22 refrigerant phase out starts in 2010. R-22 raw material has already begun its price increase leading up the phase out starting in 2010. "

[defense]

Found this article interesting:

http://www.acr-news.com/news/news.asp?id=671

It is a rink in Scotland. Most rinks built in 1970 and 1980 use R22 refrigerant (freon) to chill the ice. As of right now, R22 is slated to be no longer made in a few years due to 'global warming' and 'ozone depletion' issues.

As many of our MN rinks are 1970's and 80's....this has the potential to shut many of our rinks down, or make ice prohibitably expensive in a few years.

My research shows that there aren't many options available to our local rinks that use R22 when it can no longer be manufactured. Here they are:

1) Buy recycled R22 at $20+ per pound. Currently, R22 runs $5 per pound and the typical arena setup uses 6000 pounds per year. Anticipate hourly ice doubling (this is pre-cap and trade).

2) Convert the system over to a newer system.....meaning shut down the rink for a year and expend a million dollars to upgrade.

3) Close the rink.

Are the days of outdoor hockey's return coming back sooner than we think? Anyone else have info on this or have seen this concern raised at your local rinks? Curious about what rinks are doing about this looming horizon. Anyone think MN Hockey or USA Hockey should be involved in lobbying government officials?

I wouldn't get too alarmed. What refrigerant is run in your car??? IF it is a newer model it has R 134a, the replacement of R 12.... R 134a is less effecient, but does the job. For something as widely used as refrigerant, they will find an alternative. This is not a new issue, it may be slightly new to the ice rink world, but environementalists have been on this subject for quite some time in other industries(automotive) for one...
Intially when they quit making R 12, the conversion, or "retro fit" was a big expense for car owners. THey had to replace major parts of the system, flush it etc... Now, it has been accepted to simply add some fittings, maybe change some seals and fill er up with the new stuff. THey've backed off a bit. Who knows what they may come with, but I would have to imagine this is not going to be earth shattering.... Thanks for bringing it to attention though...

[frederick61]

I have converted three older cars from R-12 to R-134. Not only does R-134 run less efficient, it decreases my gas mileage. I now put more “hydrocarbons” into the air. In addition, because R-134 has a smaller molecular structure then R-12, it escapes through the older air conditioner fittings especially when it turns cold in the winter. So it is not just the conversion process but performance over the year and I will bet that “a converted” rink will lose Freon and as a result use more then the old. I had to re-charge my converted to R-134 air conditioners every spring.

I believe that there is more to this conversion then what is being sold by the “greens”. I recently got a new refrigerator for the house and gave my 25 year old one with the older Freon away. I had the old one checked out by an expert before it left the house; he told me I made a bad deal. The new fridge would die out in less then 10 years because of the “green Freon” where the 25 year old fridge would probably still be going. Once the new one dies, it has to be scrapped. What is the “green foot print” for scraping three or four fridges to one?

The problem with going “green” is there is no true measure of cause and effect on the environment. The classic example is the use of catalytic converters. They served a value when the gas was leaded and burned high octane gas, now cars are hybrids and burn ethanol bases fuels. Is the catalytic converter still needed? Since these converters are the principle cause of “black ice” in the winter, shouldn’t they be eliminated? Think of the environmental impact if you don’t manufacture the converters plus all the cars and lives saved.

Or consider the expert who calculated that golfers using wooden tees would deplete a forest the size of Oregon every year, so wooden tees should be banned. That “sky is falling” alarm was raised in the 1980’s. He should never have gotten a personal computer with a spread sheet.

But the one I like best is the expert in the early 80’s who guaranteed if America didn’t change, Minnesota would have a climate like Texas in the year 2000 and that Lake Superior would drain into the Mississippi River. Last time I was in Duluth, the lake was kicking up its heels with waves crashing over ice on the shores. I was standing in snow.

Such foolishness!

[whockeyguy]

totally agree with fredrick,, about 20 years ago, people said replacing r-12 in cars would decrease Global warming, well they come up with something new every day, Now Co2 is being blamed the same thing trees need to survive and what you exhale, Call it global extortion,,

[Mac15]

Car A/C systems have flexible lines because an engine twists during operation and a solid line would break in a short amount of time. The flexible lines might be a greater source of leakage than the fittings. Its similar to helium in a regular balloon versus a mylar balloon. The lines in a refrigerated trailer, a building and an ice arena are not designed to be flexible other than what they need to survive normal operating vibration.

We can all complain about why R-22 is going away but that doesn't change the requirement. My information was intended to help some organizations find a possible solution.

(If you want to gripe about R-134A, get some of the refrigerant oil on your skin and you'll have something to complain about. )

[frederick61]

Every time I get the car re-charged with R-134, the mechanic has to add refrigerant oil.