District 6 to use 4 man for Bantam A League Next year

QuackerTracker · Post by **QuackerTracker** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 12:54 pm

Sounds like district 6 will be going to the 4 man system for all bantam A league games next year as a test for USA Hockey. It was originally done by a league out east however they did not report back to USA hockey on their findings.

The 4 man system will be run only during league do to the number of officials qualifed to work the level.

Chuck Norris Fan · Post by **Chuck Norris Fan** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:30 pm

Great 4 of the worst refs in the state on ice at one time. they might as well play three on three hockey full time then.

Fire and Ice · Post by **Fire and Ice** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:58 pm

Very quick to the trigger

The truth hurts.

DumpandChase1 · Post by **DumpandChase1** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:05 pm

I thought we were trying to reduce expenses for families, not increase them. Is USA hockey paying for this? This might be the dumbest idea I have heard, they should go back to a 2 man system.

OnFrozenPond · Post by **OnFrozenPond** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:13 pm

DumpandChase1 wrote:I thought we were trying to reduce expenses for families, not increase them. Is USA hockey paying for this? This might be the dumbest idea I have heard, they should go back to a 2 man system.

Great point. With 3 refs it costs about $200 per game.

whockeyguy · Post by **whockeyguy** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 6:59 pm

WHAT ---- only in D-6 take the money and exploit the kids and parents, dont give me any excuses all they have to say is NO ... if this is true D-6 should be banned form Mn Hockey, ther is NO REASON in the world to even think about this, STUPID I guess you know how i feel

puckboy · Post by **puckboy** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:23 pm

majority of districts only use 2 refs for bantams- now 4??

conditioningsucks · Post by **conditioningsucks** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 8:49 pm

[quote="puckboy"]majority of districts only use 2 refs for bantams- now 4??[/quote]

I think this is part of the government's bailout (er, stimulus) package to "save" jobs. USA Hockey must have been a recipient of the bailout and now they have to create a few jobs to show that the bailout is working.

Chuck Norris Fan · Post by **Chuck Norris Fan** » Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:29 pm

I have watched a lot of games at the A bantam level and can honestly say that the two man system is no good for this level. The game is just to fast to make sure the refs are in the right position to call the game.

I have been to many games that have used the three man system two linesman and 1 ref. This is obviously better than the two man but it still requires that the ref go end to end, and again they miss things. I saw quite a few games last year that there were goal disputes because the ref was behind the play getting into the zone. The game is too fast to expect the ref to be able to go end to end.

I think the proper solution is to have two refs and one linesman. This has the lines doing offsides and iceing and stays in the middle of the rink. The refs then only have to cover 3/4 of the rink and there will always (wink , wink) be a ref ahead in the play and someone watching behind the play as well.

hiptzech · Post by **hiptzech** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:34 am

OnFrozenPond wrote:
DumpandChase1 wrote:I thought we were trying to reduce expenses for families, not increase them. Is USA hockey paying for this? This might be the dumbest idea I have heard, they should go back to a 2 man system.
Great point. With 3 refs it costs about $200 per game.

Don't count on it windbag...Last year at the U14A level D6 used a 3 man system as a path to develop potential Bantam A/B1 refs...The refs paid the price by making less per game. The game fee didn't change, the cost remained the same and was spread between the 3 refs. I would be surprised if they didn't do the same thing this year. The problem that occured last year with the 3-man system at the U14A level was, few potential refs were used on the same good ole boys running it got the games. It will be interesting to see how the pay will shake out and who actually gets to do the games. If they are truly doing it as a test for USA Hockey there is some validity to it, but if they are doing it to keep the senior citezens doing the Bantam games and just give them less ice to cover it will be a joke.
So before you start flapping your gums you should educate yourself.

And as always, enjoy the game.

Fire and Ice · Post by **Fire and Ice** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:04 am

The point is D6 refs whether they use 4 or 2 or 12 refs, doesn't matter they are the worst officials in the state period. 3 on 3 hockey is a compliment to them.

And as always, enjoy the game.

DumpandChase1 · Post by **DumpandChase1** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:06 am

Hipzech, if you are talking to me, relax and quit taking any ref criticism personal. I hope you have thicker skin on the ice. I am stating my opinion that a 4 man system is a stupid idea, if you don't like it, fine. 2 good refs can easily do a bantam game and can for sure do a U14 game. High School use to have 2 refs back in the 90's and they did just fine. What we need is more quality and less quantity.

seek & destroy · Post by **seek & destroy** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:19 am

Chuck Norris Fan wrote:I think the proper solution is to have two refs and one linesman. This has the lines doing offsides and iceing and stays in the middle of the rink. The refs then only have to cover 3/4 of the rink and there will always (wink , wink) be a ref ahead in the play and someone watching behind the play as well.

I agree with your idea of 3 refs but would also add that, if they are truly looking to make it easier on the refs, why not add the tag up rule at this age. It would help prepare the kids for High School hockey and creates fewer breaks in the action. It's much easier as a ref to make sure kids are tagging up then it is to be right on the line for every offsides call.

Adding tag up would be a heck of a lot better than going to 4 refs.

InigoMontoya · Post by **InigoMontoya** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:22 am

He still needs to be on the line to make the call.

Hoops · Post by **Hoops** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:02 pm

InigoMontoya wrote:He still needs to be on the line to make the call.

As long as we are discussing this...what is with the refs and their offsides calls? I saw it all last yr...and REALLY saw it in St.Cloud for the U15. These refs stand on the line and are just creaming in their pants to whistle offsides. I've seen NUMEROUS blown calls that just KILL the action. They need to error on the side of caution and let the play continue unless it is FOR SURE an offsides. It borderlines on ridiculous. They in fact are blowing offsides on plays that are obviously not offsides and that should never happen. EVER! Anytime it's close at all...here comes the whistle.
I can only assume it's the refs loving the power of their position.

That felt good

h20 · Post by **h20** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:06 pm

Going back to when they just used two and switched to three, they all said we would get better officiating, WRONG,, all it was was the good ole boys were getting older and couldnt keep up, Now they want four what a joke, all that happend is the good ole boys got OLDER and some have passed on , well we cant bring those back, but having 4 on the ice will keep them going like that little energizer bunny. . I like the previous statement of your stimulas money at work, but it wont matter if cap and tax{trade} passes because nobody will be abel to pay the electrical costs to keep the arenas open,
Heck it all going downhill so might as well take the monet and run now beacuse it wont be there later

Chuck Norris Fan · Post by **Chuck Norris Fan** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:21 pm

seek & destroy wrote:
I agree with your idea of 3 refs but would also add that, if they are truly looking to make it easier on the refs, why not add the tag up rule at this age. It would help prepare the kids for High School hockey and creates fewer breaks in the action. It's much easier as a ref to make sure kids are tagging up then it is to be right on the line for every offsides call.

Adding tag up would be a heck of a lot better than going to 4 refs.

Honestly, I think we have it backwards. The tag up rule was put in place to make the players use more skill. They need to regroup and handle the puck in order to get in the offensive zone on sides. This also creates turnovers in the neutral zone and more offensive chances off mistakes for both teams.

Now why would we want to increase skill in our youth levels and we let our HS, College, and Pros just dump a puck so as not to turn it over.

You want more offense in the NHL.. here is an option.

Of course with all that said, the punishment for not doing this was suppose to be intentional offsides and a face off in your defensive zone. Since this is rarely ever called it is a mute point.

observer · Post by **observer** » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:31 pm

Wrong. I think? I can't tell what you're saying. Frankly, the real opinion is that tag up is lazy and requires less puck handling skill, and brains for the game, than maintaining possession, bringing the puck back out to the neutral zone, regroup, and take back in the offensive zone with control of the puck. It's easy to just fire it back in the zone. It's all about possession. So, I'm a fan of the current off sides rule in MN Youth Hockey.

Kids can play it either way as most all AAA teams, and off season tournaments, play tag-up. Coaches teach the principles of both.

hiptzech · Post by **hiptzech** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:30 am

DumpandChase1 wrote:Hipzech, if you are talking to me, relax and quit taking any ref criticism personal. I hope you have thicker skin on the ice. I am stating my opinion that a 4 man system is a stupid idea, if you don't like it, fine. 2 good refs can easily do a bantam game and can for sure do a U14 game. High School use to have 2 refs back in the 90's and they did just fine. What we need is more quality and less quantity.

No, it was directed at OnfrozenPond...I like to think I am thick skinned on the ice, although at times we are all human. I don't like the idea of the 4 man system, we saw that in the State Tourney this year...Officials where in places that the players didn't expect them to be in. I agree with the majority of what you are saying and I am a ref. I agree we need more quality and less quantity...I was taking not taking offense to your comments, just stating the fact that one can not automatically assume that it is going to cost the players and associations more. The point I was making about the U14s is that the refs took the hit with the game fee. I personally am willing to take a hit on a game fee if it is going to benefit my abilities and increase my opportunities to move up. The funny thing about me is, I do it for the love of the game and not the money. I make enough at my day job. I hate the fact that D6 takes such a beating on the quality of officials, I ref in D6 and feel I do a good job. Unfortunately, just like everywhere else in life there are those that represent the vast majority that SUCK. After 4 full years (year round) of officiating, I am still stuck at a level that does not allow me to do the games I believe I am capable of doing becuase the good ole boys are getting them, most of which are too slow, too burned out and too greedy to get out of the way... There I said it....Dump the 4 ref idea, move to a 2 Ref, 1 Linesman system. Don't worry about inconsistancy between the 2 refs, by the end of the 1st period they will have each other figured out and the game will resume with consistancy (most of the time).

OnFrozenPond · Post by **OnFrozenPond** » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:00 am

hiptzech wrote:
DumpandChase1 wrote:Hipzech, if you are talking to me, relax and quit taking any ref criticism personal. I hope you have thicker skin on the ice. I am stating my opinion that a 4 man system is a stupid idea, if you don't like it, fine. 2 good refs can easily do a bantam game and can for sure do a U14 game. High School use to have 2 refs back in the 90's and they did just fine. What we need is more quality and less quantity.
No, it was directed at OnfrozenPond...I like to think I am thick skinned on the ice, although at times we are all human. I don't like the idea of the 4 man system, we saw that in the State Tourney this year...Officials where in places that the players didn't expect them to be in. I agree with the majority of what you are saying and I am a ref. I agree we need more quality and less quantity...I was taking not taking offense to your comments, just stating the fact that one can not automatically assume that it is going to cost the players and associations more. The point I was making about the U14s is that the refs took the hit with the game fee. I personally am willing to take a hit on a game fee if it is going to benefit my abilities and increase my opportunities to move up. The funny thing about me is, I do it for the love of the game and not the money. I make enough at my day job. I hate the fact that D6 takes such a beating on the quality of officials, I ref in D6 and feel I do a good job. Unfortunately, just like everywhere else in life there are those that represent the vast majority that SUCK. After 4 full years (year round) of officiating, I am still stuck at a level that does not allow me to do the games I believe I am capable of doing becuase the good ole boys are getting them, most of which are too slow, too burned out and too greedy to get out of the way... There I said it....Dump the 4 ref idea, move to a 2 Ref, 1 Linesman system. Don't worry about inconsistancy between the 2 refs, by the end of the 1st period they will have each other figured out and the game will resume with consistancy (most of the time).

I didn't mean to offend anyone (although I am not sure what I said that was so offensive). My concern is simpy that we are currently paying a lot of money per game for 3 refs. I would hate to see those costs go up by 25% - 30% for what many feel (including you) is the unnecessary addition of a 4th ref.

Ps...talk about flapping your gums

Doglover · Post by **Doglover** » Sun Jul 05, 2009 12:30 pm

3 refs - we saw at the HS state tourney that the 4th just gets in the way of the players. Never have understood MN Hockey and their thinking. Agree with hiptzech.

QuackerTracker · Post by **QuackerTracker** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:05 pm

The cost for officials would not be increased with the 4 man system. As stated by someone earlier the pay would remain the same and be devided up amongst the 4 officials.

Again this is a test for USA Hockey. Currently USA recognizes the 2 man system and the 3 man system using 1 ref and 2 lines. They do not recognize the 2 ref and 1 line that HS uses and I would guess that they never will.

For all those that seem to think the officiating in D6 is so bad here is a link to this years seminars:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.ngin.com ... minars.pdf

I invite you to attend one and become a registered official. We could sure use your help cause you know more, are a better skater, and want to be on the ice more then the officials doing the games. So please sign up. We need you!

seek & destroy · Post by **seek & destroy** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:54 pm

QuackerTracker wrote:The cost for officials would not be increased with the 4 man system. As stated by someone earlier the pay would remain the same and be devided up amongst the 4 officials.

Again this is a test for USA Hockey. Currently USA recognizes the 2 man system and the 3 man system using 1 ref and 2 lines. They do not recognize the 2 ref and 1 line that HS uses and I would guess that they never will.

For all those that seem to think the officiating in D6 is so bad here is a link to this years seminars:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/assets.ngin.com ... minars.pdf

I invite you to attend one and become a registered official. We could sure use your help cause you know more, are a better skater, and want to be on the ice more then the officials doing the games. So please sign up. We need you!

I couldn't agree with you more Quacker! Before people throw stones, put on the gear, get on the ice and ref some games. I have never officially been a ref but I have done a couple of off season scrimmages. It is not easy and the refs deserve credit for how many things they get right rather than the few things that they do wrong. Sure, like all professions, there are a few that act like they own the rink or make more mistakes than others but, for the most part, they all do a pretty decent job in a rather thankless environment.

Chuck Norris Fan · Post by **Chuck Norris Fan** » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:25 pm

seek & destroy wrote: It is not easy and the refs deserve credit for how many things they get right rather than the few things that they do wrong. Sure, like all professions, there are a few that act like they own the rink or make more mistakes than others but, for the most part, they all do a pretty decent job in a rather thankless environment.

Difference..... People in other professions admit it when they make mistakes and try to fix them. D6 put on the stripes and become unfulfillable or so they think and when you try to talk to them about it they become hostile and uncooperative. That is not all of them but it is most of them.

oh and I have done the reffing thing, and I get it when someone is yelling at you. But the same reaction should not come from someone who is trying to talk to you....

whockeyguy · Post by **whockeyguy** » Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:14 pm

Dear quacker tracker, ive been to probably 20 or more clinics and the worst one i ever attended was held by D-6 , they have to be the most self serving bunch of officails in the state, not to say conceited, all they could talk about is how D-6 is the best officiating around and you have to be someone special to break the ice there, well, sorry i dont have time that BS for a bunch of clowns that are no better than me,
Oh its nice to hear the rate wont go up , ya this year, and then your report goes in and syay how great this system is, and were all saddled with later,
Dont tell me it wont happen because ive seen it wit the 3 man system, this started very similar.
My god its youth hockey , your telling two or three grown adults covering half the ice cant keep up with 14-15 year olds , well if thats the case then get off the ice before you get run over and let someone that can keep up do it.
The 4 ref system is a joke , and there is NO reason to even try it at YOUTH Hockey