Community Based Youth Hockey Threatened

[DMom]

Nothing Minnesota Hockey can do will "fix" dysfunctional associations, that's up to the local volunteers to do. A competitive model would only work if you were talking about paid employees who were motivated by money to become better. I believe that every volunteer in Minnesota is doing the best job they can. Can it be done better, certainly, go right ahead.

I have a letter that we received 2 years ago when my husband volunteered to be in charge of the mite jamboree. That letter sets out about ten things that this first time Hockey Dad felt was done wrong and at the "expense of the kids having a good time". Two years go by, in which he is told the same message in the first paragraph. He steps up to be in charge of the mite jamboree. Each and every one of those ten things that he felt so strongly would contribute to the "child's hockey experience" did not happen. Why? It was important enough for him to complain about and write a letter about. Why? I believe it's because he has a family and commitments and a job and I believe he did the best he could. I certainly didn't shoot off an email berating him for not meeting his own standards. He didn't ruin my son's childhood. But he didn't do it any better. I agree that as adults we have to do the best we can to make sports fun and competitive for the kids and we need to look at all of the options and make educated decisions.

The biggest problem I see is trying to find an association to take you in. As someone pointed out, ice is an issue and many of the city associations don't have enough for the teams they already are fielding. I don't think our association has ever tracked a family down and made them return (if any have left) but they've certainly been sent to us from other associations based on residency.

You can bet if your kid is going to take an A spot from a residents kid there will be all sorts of complaining going on. It'll be a remix of the Apple Valley ice time lawsuit, non-residents who don't pay taxes getting majority or 'better' ice times on city parkland.

I wish the volunteers at Minnesota Hockey the best.

[elliott70]

http://minnesotahockey.org/assorted/Res ... Change.pdf

David Bakke:

Regardless of where this ends up, we need to work together and get something in place for next season

Hopefully MH will actually put some thought into doing this unlike the usah HPC push.

Elliott, what can you tell us from being on the Discernment committee?

The committee is also considering a provision that would require teams in a District to be complete before players are eligible to be waived out of the District.

How would this work? If a district has their teams set before allowing waivers, how would inter district transfers work? You wouldn't be able to participate in tryouts and would be a C transfer. Wouldn't other districts also have teams set and make cross district transfers equally difficult? Seems like a plan for C player and Rainbow waivers.

Would a kid be able to choose where to play by home address and school attended? Wouldn't this give more choice to private school (wealthier) kids? Would this open the door for privates to have their own associations and field A teams?

The actual wording of the new waiver policy is beingsent to local asssn from DD's so they can provide input.

Mine and Brad Hewitt's (D6DD) idea of what should be written is somewhat different than what the rules committee presented.
There will be at least 3 more discussions before this is voted on.
Request form your local president or DD if you wish to read teh wayit is currently written. I am 99% sure it will be re-written bedore voted on.

[elliott70]

And please keep adding your opinions and ideas because I liek to add them tomy own thught process whether I agree, whether tehy are based on fact or whatever.
Thoughts help conjure thoughts.

So thank you.

[pebbles]

I think that if you look at the policies of other association sports (football, baseball, lacrosse), you might find that they allow students who attend PUBLIC schools in the district to be allowed to play for that school district's associations. Say you live in the St. Louis Park school district, but attend public school in Hopkins because those schools happen to be closer to your house, then Hopkins would allow you to play most sports within the Hopkins Youth athletics assiciations. Hockey seems to be the clear exception currently. By only looking at the PUBLIC school open-enrollments, you eliminate all the private scenarios mentioned here.

The wording could be something like..."You are eligible to participate in the Hopkins Youth hockey program if you live within the boundaries of the Hopkins school district or are currently enrolled in the Hopkins school district."

[muckandgrind]

The question people need to ask is what can they do to improve the situation where they live, their community, instead of bailing. It requires time and involvement and passion to improve the situation for all youth that live in your community not just your child or the idea of looking for an easy way out.

What do you say to the parents that have spent years doing what you suggest but with no success? Should they continue to just dump thousands of dollars a year down the toilet if they know things will never change no matter HOW much they try?

I agree that parents should do whatever they can to do to try and pitch in and make things work....but ultimately, most parents want to provide the best hockey experience for their child that they can...and sometimes that could mean playing somewhere else if your local association is completely dysfunctional.

[justhavefun]

MN Hockey should be an Open door policy. I really do not think many would go. you are putting a lot of trust in your kids ability to possibly go somewhere and then NOT MAKE it. Risky!!! now your forced to play a lesser level because of Creed. This would also maybe make some of these associations do a better job picking coaches, personal etc. I look at my son's team. they have went backwards due to very poor, unorganized coaching this season. Everyone knew this coach was way over his head, yet they had no choice. It all happened due to politics. (Same old senario - become president, place you and your kid on a team, you know the story) If I had a choice to go elsewhere I would have to consider all variables, mileage, not knowing all the other kids, etc. Its not my team it my sons. for the most part he enjoys playing with his classmates. I look at the programs I have been associated with and I feel most the problem parents are problems because they can bitch and bitch knowing they cannot go anywhere and the local association has to take them. what if no one wanted the kid due to a problem parent. It happens all the time in the summer. I see coaches not ask players back because mom or dad.

anyway All I am saying do we really think many would go? and if there was a team or two that was the super power who would want to play them. Look at history. its always the same teams now winning most the time.

[goldy313]

For a minority of people it is a good idea, for the vast majority it will further kill hockey and drive people away from the sport.

Essentially this is AAU, play for whomever you want or wants you. Recruiting will run rampant and costs will skyrocket because the rest of the "local" association has to cover the increased costs. People with means and money will benefit those that are scrappig by and still putting their kids in hockey will get drummed out or forced into less and less competitive areas. What happens to the kid who was recruited from Sibley to go play Bantam A at Edina then gets cut? Does Sibley have to let him back in?

If you're going to do this just go to AAA and let the local associations be, why does USA Hockey and by proxy MN Hockey need to continually pander to the least common denominator? My guess is that's where the money is at.

[muckandgrind]

For a minority of people it is a good idea, for the vast majority it will further kill hockey and drive people away from the sport.

Essentially this is AAU, play for whomever you want or wants you. Recruiting will run rampant and costs will skyrocket because the rest of the "local" association has to cover the increased costs. People with means and money will benefit those that are scrappig by and still putting their kids in hockey will get drummed out or forced into less and less competitive areas. What happens to the kid who was recruited from Sibley to go play Bantam A at Edina then gets cut? Does Sibley have to let him back in?

If you're going to do this just go to AAA and let the local associations be, why does USA Hockey and by proxy MN Hockey need to continually pander to the least common denominator? My guess is that's where the money is at.

Did you read the MH letter? Because if you had, you would know what you just said wouldn't happen.

MH isn't proposing that we get rid of the waiver process, just that every District follows the same standards when it comes to waivering out players. Just because a player/family wants out does not mean they get out. They would have to meet one of the proposed criteria (school enrollment, etc.). If you think there would be a massive number of kids switching schools in order to switch associations, you're dreaming. Sure, there might be a few, but the vast majority will stay right where they are at, IMO.

[puckboy]

what MN Hockey needs is a simple and consistent policy for ALL districts.

[buttend]

There’s a discussion going on at Minnesota Hockey regarding eliminating the residency status when it comes to youth hockey. The proposal is to allow youth hockey players to waive to the youth association where they go to school instead of playing where they live. I don’t know who dreams these ideas up, or promotes them, but this one is really dumb.

District 6 has an "open enrollment" waiver policy for players living in a District 6 Association boundry and choosing to go to school in another District 6 Association boundry. I dont know how much it is used but I have not heard of players exercising this option.

From the District 6 rule book.

3.5 Waivers
A player wishing to play outside of their affiliate may petition to obtain petition to obtain a waiver. Waivers must be approved by both the releasing and receiving association President (s) and approved by the District Director (s).

3.5.1 Open-enrollment: Open-enrollment waivers are available to players residing within one District 6 association and open-enrolling into another District 6 association. After one open enrollment an individual is not eligible to open-enroll in another District 6 association, including their home association, without a change of address. It is expected that open enrollment is a long-term decision.

[mnhcp]

This is obviously directed towards the girls. But this issue in my opinion (having both a son and daughter) is even more important to the girls.

Many Associations have number issues with girls hockey more so then boys. Constantly digging 2 grades deep to fill their rosters.

Many girl teams consistantly loose games barely eeking out a win unless it's a cherry picked scrimmaged.

Often these teams have 1 or 2 talented girls suffering as a result.

My daughter works so hard, practices, shoots daily, skates countless hours with huge aspirations only to be let down by her uncommitted teammates playing hockey for the sake of being with the girls.

It's hopeless. There's no light at the end of the tunnel. There's no hope that I as a parent become more involved in obtaining change. There's no hope to inspire other kids/families to give a crap.

Unless MN Hockey or our district eventually allows waivers, our only solution appears to be: Private School or moving. Talk about a screwed up system (especially for girls). Help me, is this right? All for hockey. We don't want to move, we just want her to play competitive hockey in the winter season. Sure AAA is on our menu but the 100 hours she skates during the winter season appear to be pointless. Help, any advise?

[council member retired]

[quote="mnhcp"]This is obviously directed towards the girls. But this issue in my opinion (having both a son and daughter) is even more important to the girls.

Many Associations have number issues with girls hockey more so then boys. Constantly digging 2 grades deep to fill their rosters.

Many girl teams consistantly loose games barely eeking out a win unless it's a cherry picked scrimmaged.

Often these teams have 1 or 2 talented girls suffering as a result.

My daughter works so hard, practices, shoots daily, skates countless hours with huge aspirations only to be let down by her uncommitted teammates playing hockey for the sake of being with the girls.

It's hopeless. There's no light at the end of the tunnel. There's no hope that I as a parent become more involved in obtaining change. There's no hope to inspire other kids/families to give a crap.

Unless MN Hockey or our district eventually allows waivers, our only solution appears to be: Private School or moving. Talk about a screwed up system (especially for girls). Help me, is this right? All for hockey. We don't want to move, we just want her to play competitive hockey in the winter season. Sure AAA is on our menu but the 100 hours she skates during the winter season appear to be pointless. Help, any advise?[/quote]



the problem with girls hockey for the elite player lies in the numbers. Girls hockey programs are still in their infancy. I do believe that recenter mite age kids, have found girls hockey to be a normal activity. Before that in recent years "girls have their own hockey league?" . You sir or madam could be a pioneer for your association and go to the board, push for free hockey for all mite age girls... put signs up at soccer fields, and posters on windshields this fall. If you are looking for say 20 1st year girl kindergarten age players you can get them by your hard work.

[InigoMontoya]

This is not just a girls issue. I think you'd find a bushel basket of out-state parents who feel the same way about the boys programs. Trying to make A & B teams with 25 kids is a challenge.

[mnhcp]

This is not just a girls issue. I think you'd find a bushel basket of out-state parents who feel the same way about the boys programs. Trying to make A & B teams with 25 kids is a challenge.

Okay, then what do you do assuming you "CAN'T" change the current situation and the current situation "WON'T" change? How do we pursue other options other then moving?

[mnhcp]

This is obviously directed towards the girls. But this issue in my opinion (having both a son and daughter) is even more important to the girls.

Many Associations have number issues with girls hockey more so then boys. Constantly digging 2 grades deep to fill their rosters.

Many girl teams consistantly loose games barely eeking out a win unless it's a cherry picked scrimmaged.

Often these teams have 1 or 2 talented girls suffering as a result.

My daughter works so hard, practices, shoots daily, skates countless hours with huge aspirations only to be let down by her uncommitted teammates playing hockey for the sake of being with the girls.

It's hopeless. There's no light at the end of the tunnel. There's no hope that I as a parent become more involved in obtaining change. There's no hope to inspire other kids/families to give a crap.

Unless MN Hockey or our district eventually allows waivers, our only solution appears to be: Private School or moving. Talk about a screwed up system (especially for girls). Help me, is this right? All for hockey. We don't want to move, we just want her to play competitive hockey in the winter season. Sure AAA is on our menu but the 100 hours she skates during the winter season appear to be pointless. Help, any advise?

the problem with girls hockey for the elite player lies in the numbers. Girls hockey programs are still in their infancy. I do believe that recenter mite age kids, have found girls hockey to be a normal activity. Before that in recent years "girls have their own hockey league?" . You sir or madam could be a pioneer for your association and go to the board, push for free hockey for all mite age girls... put signs up at soccer fields, and posters on windshields this fall. If you are looking for say 20 1st year girl kindergarten age players you can get them by your hard work.

Thanks for the kind reply but let's be real. We can't even get free or half priced goalies for the girls.

[InigoMontoya]

You have to be patient with those who currently serve or have previously served on an association board. They have poured countless hours of dedicated work into building not only a powerful hockey program but a warm loving environment for its members. They cannot fathom an environment that isn't democratic and in the best interest of the kids. Their thoughts and ideas, though interesting and insightful, are not very helpful when you're a simple peasant battling the evil earl that has been granted ownership of flock and field and unlimited taxing authority by the possibly well-meaning but ultimately clueless king.

[myhockeyman]

I think there is a real slippery slope here. State and local budgets are being squeezed. Most of you skate at rinks that are subsidized by state and local taxes. Hockey families are definitely not the majority of the people living in the community but in most places the arrangement works. Start having teams with half (or less) local kids and in time (5-10 years in my opinion), you will wreck the some of the very things that makes Minnesota hockey great. Specifically, it's affordability. If hockey is no longer community based, why should the community subsidize it? Start paying going rates for ice ($200-$400/hr) and you change the dynamics of a great hockey development system.

Change the community aspect and suddenly you no longer have as many people working as hard to build up their local teams/association. It's much easier to move next door where they have a good thing going than to stay around and try to fix things.

There are a dozen other downsides to going this route, most of them have been mentioned, but I think the above could do more to kill hockey traditions in MN than any other. Not that there aren't some valid reasons to address some outstanding issues, there are, but I'd think real hard about the long term issues before killing the goose that is laying golden eggs.

Food for thought...

[muckandgrind]

This is obviously directed towards the girls. But this issue in my opinion (having both a son and daughter) is even more important to the girls.

Many Associations have number issues with girls hockey more so then boys. Constantly digging 2 grades deep to fill their rosters.

Many girl teams consistantly loose games barely eeking out a win unless it's a cherry picked scrimmaged.

Often these teams have 1 or 2 talented girls suffering as a result.

My daughter works so hard, practices, shoots daily, skates countless hours with huge aspirations only to be let down by her uncommitted teammates playing hockey for the sake of being with the girls.

It's hopeless. There's no light at the end of the tunnel. There's no hope that I as a parent become more involved in obtaining change. There's no hope to inspire other kids/families to give a crap.

Unless MN Hockey or our district eventually allows waivers, our only solution appears to be: Private School or moving. Talk about a screwed up system (especially for girls). Help me, is this right? All for hockey. We don't want to move, we just want her to play competitive hockey in the winter season. Sure AAA is on our menu but the 100 hours she skates during the winter season appear to be pointless. Help, any advise?

If numbers are the issue, show up to the next board meeting and ask about the possibility of your association sharing players with another close association. Maybe a co-op at the "A" level or something like that. It's not uncommon at all to see associations partner up in that fashion.

[InigoMontoya]

Good point. If the goose was laying only golden eggs, there'd be no issue. If the goose jettisoned gold, silver, and bronze - OK. But the goose also dumps out nasty, stinking, rotten eggs with green gas oozing out.

[talkinghockey]

Great discussions about the proposed changes in the residency rule to allow kids who attend different schools to play youth hockey with their classmates. This issue has been at the board level for several years and hundreds of hours of board memeber time has been expended over this issue. There are several situations in the metro area where kids are forced to drive a long way to play hockey with kids they do not know because of changing school district boundries and other situations. Some famlies who live on school district boundries choose one school over the other and often times the open enrollment school is closer to their home and sometimes the schools offer special programs that they want to take advange of. One thing the residency issue does not address is the private school issue which seems to garner lots of attention for so few kids. The private school issue will be looked at as a stand alone issue after the residency rule issue has been resovled. As it stands now Blake is done with Bantams afte the upcoming year and St. Thomas is in flux as they register through Prior Lake.

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

"This issue has been at the board level for several years and hundreds of hours of board memeber time has been expended over this issue"

Board level, hundreds of hours... that is too much.. thank you for the giggle

[countryboy]

This is a great change to what has become nothing more than a power struggle in our association. We have a old boy network that does NOTHING to help the kids just what is easiest. They are the ones that drove the program into the ground in the name of keeping every kid the same. No program should be able to pick and choose who they give waivers to either leave or join a program. Rules need to be put in place to eliminate the picking and choosing. Facts are facts - offer a good hockey opportunity for ALL and no one would leave. They old boys have managed to push our best players out over the last 8 years and now they wonder why. Time to look in the mirror. IT IS YOUR OWN FAULT!!! No program should be able to play god. If kids are in school elsewhere they are not coming back to play hockey there in HS so let them go to where they do go to school so they dont take ice time away from your kids who are there. Time to standardize the process and eliminate the so called gurus from doing nothing more than trying to control. This rule change will not cause mass movements just standardize it for those of us that have moved to other public school districts for multiple reasons.

[council member retired]

[quote="talkinghockey"] "There are several situations in the metro area where kids are forced to drive a long way to play hockey with kids they do not know because of changing school district boundries"


You write as if your a board member of MH. If you are I hope you can gather more input from your members here. One thing to note is Minnesota schools do not change boundries in their school district.. it just doesn't happen. A city is more likely to change its boundries then for a school district too. Occiason;y you will see interior changes among one school district, but not from one to the other.

[mnhcp]

"This issue has been at the board level for several years and hundreds of hours of board memeber time has been expended over this issue"

Board level, hundreds of hours... that is too much.. thank you for the giggle

Ditto and giggle!

[mnhcp]

This is obviously directed towards the girls. But this issue in my opinion (having both a son and daughter) is even more important to the girls.

Many Associations have number issues with girls hockey more so then boys. Constantly digging 2 grades deep to fill their rosters.

Many girl teams consistantly loose games barely eeking out a win unless it's a cherry picked scrimmaged.

Often these teams have 1 or 2 talented girls suffering as a result.

My daughter works so hard, practices, shoots daily, skates countless hours with huge aspirations only to be let down by her uncommitted teammates playing hockey for the sake of being with the girls.

It's hopeless. There's no light at the end of the tunnel. There's no hope that I as a parent become more involved in obtaining change. There's no hope to inspire other kids/families to give a crap.

Unless MN Hockey or our district eventually allows waivers, our only solution appears to be: Private School or moving. Talk about a screwed up system (especially for girls). Help me, is this right? All for hockey. We don't want to move, we just want her to play competitive hockey in the winter season. Sure AAA is on our menu but the 100 hours she skates during the winter season appear to be pointless. Help, any advise?

If numbers are the issue, show up to the next board meeting and ask about the possibility of your association sharing players with another close association. Maybe a co-op at the "A" level or something like that. It's not uncommon at all to see associations partner up in that fashion.

The one who influences this decision the most (at this time) will also be the most affected. He doesn't want to Co-op as his daughter won't make A. She's player #15 right now. So maybe I've come to my own conclusion: either become the Girls Director myself or shutup.