BRECK CLASS A CHAMPIONS

[flatontheice]

They're classified as private schools because of who funds them, not because of anything that goes on inside the building.

Yep. They're still a different classification.

Isn't it equally disingenuous to say that all public schools are equivalent, though?
And to turn around the other argument, a fair number of people also see enough benefit to go to a much more distant public school under open enrollment.
.

Well, quite obviously no two schools are equal. The way some private schools create hockey teams is quite a bit different than how public schools do, however. And open enrollment isn't nearly as much of an issue as private school recruitment. Entire teams of private school players are made up of kids that effectively transferred into the area. Again, please check the data on the Breck roster for a great illustration of this.

Private schools follow the exact same rules that public schools do under the MSHSL.

Yep, and that is the problem. The MSHSL should implement a separate class for them, for there are few rules around the way in which hockey teams are formed, and there needs to be more, to level the playing field.

Right now if you put the private schools in a seperate class, it would be a disaster for Minnesota Hockey. They would just leave the MSHSL and form their own league with 60+ games, a shot at Nationals, corporate sponsorship, outright recruiting with no rules, no transfer rules, and only the BEST players would be allowed in this league. Remember, most of the private schools have their own rink or could build one or have access to all the ice they want. ARE YOU SURE THIS IS WHAT ALL OF YOU IDIOTS WANT? I think it is OK the way it is. The only thing that needs to be done is stiff penalties for those who do recruit outside the rules. The MSHSL needs to stop looking the other way.

[WayOutWest]

Right now if you put the private schools in a seperate class, it would be a disaster for Minnesota Hockey. They would just leave the MSHSL and form their own league with 60+ games, a shot at Nationals, corporate sponsorship, outright recruiting with no rules, no transfer rules, and only the BEST players would be allowed in this league. Remember, most of the private schools have their own rink or could build one or have access to all the ice they want. ARE YOU SURE THIS IS WHAT ALL OF YOU IDIOTS WANT? I think it is OK the way it is. The only thing that needs to be done is stiff penalties for those who do recruit outside the rules. The MSHSL needs to stop looking the other way.

Vivid imagination, you have.

[Mite-dad]

I've said before that the private schools have won 11 of 20 state titles since 2000. At what point should something be done? When they win 15 out of 20 is it still a level playing field?

[flatontheice]

I've said before that the private schools have won 11 of 20 state titles since 2000. At what point should something be done? When they win 15 out of 20 is it still a level playing field?

What is your solution?

[Goldy Gopher]

I've said before that the private schools have won 11 of 20 state titles since 2000. At what point should something be done? When they win 15 out of 20 is it still a level playing field?

How much more even do you want it to be?

[karl(east)]

The whole idea of "checking the roster to see where the kids come from and then you'll see that they recruit" is such a bad argument. Breck is private school, STA is a private school, due to the very nature of private schools, they have to recruit to get students to go to the school. I do not see why people don't understand this. Kids are going to come from many places and this is exactly what administrators want; they want their kids to come from all over the place.

Actually, administrators don't care where they come from, just that they come. And for logistical reasons, I am sure it would be preferable if they all came from within a couple of miles of the school, rather than over a wide span.
What you need is a graph showing the dispersion pattern of students, at let's say Breck. And then lay the dispersion pattern of Breck hockey kids over the top of that. Do you think they'd align pretty well? Which one do you believe would average the furthest distances? Hmmmmm..........

This happens at public schools too.
In my time at Duluth East, the school had players from Eveleth and Hayward, Wisconsin on the team. There was another whose hometown eludes me now. This year, they had a kid from Brainerd.

If kids and/or their families are hell-bent on going to a good hockey school, they'll go incredible distances, public or private.

[deacon]

The whole idea of "checking the roster to see where the kids come from and then you'll see that they recruit" is such a bad argument. Breck is private school, STA is a private school, due to the very nature of private schools, they have to recruit to get students to go to the school. I do not see why people don't understand this. Kids are going to come from many places and this is exactly what administrators want; they want their kids to come from all over the place.

Thanks for proving my point.
The pool of kids that a private school pulls from is SO much more wide reaching than a public school, that putting their athletic taams in the same classification looks a bit ludicrous.

Your original argument was bad. Where do you expect kids to come from that go to private schools?

[deacon]

I've said before that the private schools have won 11 of 20 state titles since 2000. At what point should something be done? When they win 15 out of 20 is it still a level playing field?

Whats bad about this? This seems pretty fair to me.

[MNHockeyFan]

I've said before that the private schools have won 11 of 20 state titles since 2000. At what point should something be done? When they win 15 out of 20 is it still a level playing field?

Whats bad about this? This seems pretty fair to me.

Also don't forget the relatively poor showing that private schools had in the 20 years before 2000. From 1980 to 1999 only three private schools won the championship:
1983 - Hill Murray
1991 - Hill Murray
1999 - BSM (Class A)

I don't recall hearing anything about there not being a level playing field back then...

http://minnhock.com/state-tournament-1990.htm

[WayOutWest]

Your original argument was bad. Where do you expect kids to come from that go to private schools?

Nope, it wasn't.
I expect private school kids to come from wherever they wish.
I also expect the MSHSL to provide a level playing field in their classifications and competitions.
Both can easily be achieved.

[WayOutWest]

Also don't forget the relatively poor showing that private schools had in the 20 years before 2000. From 1980 to 1999 only three private schools won the championship:
1983 - Hill Murray
1991 - Hill Murray
1999 - BSM (Class A)

I don't recall hearing anything about there not being a level playing field back then...

http://minnhock.com/state-tournament-1990.htm

Misnomer.
The private school push to create dominant hockey programs really only took flight in the last 10-15 years.
And, no one was stopping the private schools from pushing the MSHSL for a separate class, back then.
The facts are that most didn't care. Private schools' focus used to be far more about academics (most still are) than creation of a hockey powerhouse. Some have chosen to adjust their priorities, however. And with some advantages that public schools don't have, they have the upper hand.

[karl(east)]

I also expect the MSHSL to provide a level playing field in their classifications and competitions.
Both can easily be achieved.

Ah.

Here is the MSHSL mission statement:
http://www.mshsl.org/mshsl/aboutMSHSL.asp?page=1

Tell me where you see anything about competitive balance.

[karl(east)]

Right now if you put the private schools in a seperate class, it would be a disaster for Minnesota Hockey. They would just leave the MSHSL and form their own league with 60+ games, a shot at Nationals, corporate sponsorship, outright recruiting with no rules, no transfer rules, and only the BEST players would be allowed in this league. Remember, most of the private schools have their own rink or could build one or have access to all the ice they want. ARE YOU SURE THIS IS WHAT ALL OF YOU IDIOTS WANT? I think it is OK the way it is. The only thing that needs to be done is stiff penalties for those who do recruit outside the rules. The MSHSL needs to stop looking the other way.

Vivid imagination, you have.

That situation might not be as contrived as you think. According to what I have read on here, both AHA and Hill have looked into Midget AAA in the past decade with some seriousness. While they obviously decided against it, this could be enough to make them dig up the old idea. It wouldn't take every single private school bolting the MSHSL to throw off the system you're suggesting; probably just 2 or 3.

And speaking of this system, no one has ever addressed the concerns raised about it. I'll re-post them here:

"A private school class would include:
1. Breck
2. STA
3. Holy Angels
4. Cretin
5. SCC
6. Hill-Murray
7. Benilde
8. Lourdes
(That would be your state tournament, this year at least. It's stronger than the A field, and not all that far behind the AA one).
9. Marshall
10. Totino-Grace
11. Blake
12. SPA
13. Providence
14. Holy Family Catholic
15. Minnehaha
16. Meadow Creek Christian

That's it. Questions this prompts:
1. How on earth would you work section tournaments with a field of 16? Eight sections of 2? 4 sections of 4, with a back-door for the 2nd place finisher? We also lucked into an incredibly round number...what happens if another private adds a hockey program, or one of the above folds?
2. (Relating to the earlier charge that an all-private class wouldn't make private schools more appealing) You've got a system where there are 11 teams that could realistically go to a state tournament. That means 8 out of 11 make it. Some of them are going to make it every single year. If you're a high-school hockey player, wouldn't you jump at the opportunity to make state every single year? I know I would. The odds of playing at the X jump so much higher under this setup. Again, more exposure, and more kids coming to privates.

I suppose you could say in response to 1 and 2, "make it a 4-team tournament" or something like that. But still, sections would be a joke and logistically unfair to the 3 outstate privates. And something tells me the privates wouldn't be all too happy with this setup.

3. Also, by a quick count, there are at least 13 high school programs that are co-ops that include both publics and privates. None of these are any good; they co-op to just form a team. What on earth do we do with them under your system? Force them into the private tourney to get killed, thereby "punishing" the public parts of the co-ops? Allow them into the public tourneys, thereby saying only some private schools are to be forced into separate classes? That might seem like the best option, but what about Lourdes, which co-ops with a couple of places named Stewartville and Chatfield? Do we say they have to break up, and deny kids opportunities to play?

4. And, of course, the most pressing question...who would all of us public school supporters have left to root against?

If you can come up with a format that makes more sense than that, I'd love to see it. We'd also need to see what this does to AA and A, to judge if it's really any good."

[MNHockeyFan]

Misnomer.
The private school push to create dominant hockey programs really only took flight in the last 10-15 years.
And, no one was stopping the private schools from pushing the MSHSL for a separate class, back then.
The facts are that most didn't care. Private schools' focus used to be far more about academics (most still are) than creation of a hockey powerhouse. Some have chosen to adjust their priorities, however. And with some advantages that public schools don't have, they have the upper hand.

Not a misnomer, just the facts: private schools have gone from winning roughly 10% of state tournaments from 1980-1999 to about half in this decade. Why is this?

Most hockey people who resent their recent success point to their "recruiting" even though they can never identify specific examples of coaches actually doing this. Even though there have been no cases of recruiting that were found to be in violation of MSHSL rules, the vague allegations of recruiting persist. One thing they may want to consider is the possibility of more kids and parents these days being ATTRACTED to private schools, as opposed to being RECRUITED - there's a big difference.

One factor that may be coming into play is that many of the city and first-ring suburban schools especially are simply not as good as they used to be. I know for sure that this played a big role in the decision to send our kid to a private school. The difference in environment between our two main choices was quite a bit different than it would have been if we had been making the same choice 20 years ago or even 10 years ago. A lot has changed over this period and not all for the better.

Another factor - at least until very recently - is that more parents could afford to send their kids to private schools, so they became an option for more people. With the recent economic downturn I suspect that this will no longer be an option for as many, at least for the next few years. Today you see openings at most private schools now where before most of them had waiting lists.

Back to hockey, I agree with you that several private schools have made it more of a priority to improve their hockey programs in the last 10 years. This is especially true of Holy Angels, CDH and BSM (vs. Hill Murray where hockey has been a big priority since the early 80's at least). But why would making hockey a priority be a bad thing? With open enrollment, parents and kids can also usually attend whatever public school they think is right for them. If hockey (or their sport of choice) is a major consideration, they can also attend a public school that has made having a good hockey program a priority. Having options and being able to choose what's best is a good thing, as each kid's individual situation is different.

Just some addtional thoughts to consider....

[chiefofmedicine]

i have a question....
what is so bad about recruiting?
Is it that these schools are recruiting or is that they are winning that is bothering all of you?
Is it the "fairness" of the issue, or is it that you all feel cheated when a kid plays in your youth league but then leaves for a private school?
i guess it was a few questions.....

[DENIED]

ChiefOfMedicine need to smoke um peace pipe.

[DotaDangler]

Some people on this board just aren't happy unless they're not happy.

[pipes3030]

1. How on earth would you work section tournaments with a field of 16? Eight sections of 2? 4 sections of 4, with a back-door for the 2nd place finisher? We also lucked into an incredibly round number...what happens if another private adds a hockey program, or one of the above folds?

Actually it's 17...you forgot the Saints.

[karl(east)]

1. How on earth would you work section tournaments with a field of 16? Eight sections of 2? 4 sections of 4, with a back-door for the 2nd place finisher? We also lucked into an incredibly round number...what happens if another private adds a hockey program, or one of the above folds?

Actually it's 17...you forgot the Saints.

Funny, they aren't on the list of "cooperatively sponsored programs" in this year's State Tournament program. Good catch.

At any rate, this only makes the logistics of a private tournament even more difficult. Adding another team to a section of 8 or 9 teams isn't too big of a deal, but it does when we're talking of sections of 2 or 4. That throws one of the sections off quite a bit from the other ones.

[warriors41]

Sure, and a public would win Class A 10/10 years.And a public would win Class AA 10/10 years.The only difference is, every team in each class would be forming teams via the same rules.What's not to understand? You've been given reasons. You merely refuse to acknowledge them.ANY public school would struggle to match the educational benefits that most the big name hockey privates can provide.  That's a tremendous attraction to parents and students alike. And if a great hockey talent can get a great break on tuition, well that is a perk that many families can't pass up. It's ONLY a "bad" thing on the rink, where it creates an uneven playing field. Why is this so difficult to comprehend?

I'm still waiting for a specific example of a coach going into a public school feeder, going up to a prospective athlete, and saying come attend our school and we'll give you a tuition break. When you give me one I will "acknowledge it."

Karl (East) Hit it right on the money.  Warroad isn't any different than the private schools.  They actually may be worse.  Did you see the Warroad "AD" during the tournament on T.V. about how much college schloarship money those kids are given?  WOW...

Goldy - Forgive me if you stated something else in previous pages, but your never going to get an example and we all know it. Why, because the coaches are not the ones doing the recruiting. It's parents, friends, family, past students and the tournament itself. The tourney helps the privates recruit through the great T.V. exposure. I know they all get time, it just benefits certain schools more than others. The privates keep on winning and play more games at the X and therefore are on T.V. more. Who doesn't dream of having his boy hold up the state trophy?

Warroad is worse? How is that. Everyone has the wrong impression of that scholarship. It is no given to anyone imparticular because they play hockey. It is based on academics, community involvement, and extracirricular activities. If you were to find a list of people who have won this award, which is only two years old, you would find that most recipients have not been hockey players.
Second, I would have to say that private schools, or at least Breck, is worse. I say this because I was talking to a Warroad player who happened to attend a camp with someone who played for Breck. The Breck player told him that he did not have to pay the tuition, like most players on the team don't(or at least on a lower scale), because someone pays it for him and his family. They said it was the person who helped pay for their arena.
Third, if someone honestly believes that the level of education is equal between a public and private school they are delusional. Use common sense, people don't pay up to $26,000 for something they could get for their property taxes.
Finally, I just want to be clear. I have no problem with kids who are attracted to play at a certain program because they are succcessful, whether the school is public or private. That is the players decsion and I find it hard to be mad at the school for that. I do have a problem when kids are recruited and are given special insentives to play there.

[Good Will Hunting]

Virtually all public schools recruit as well. Does the term "open enrollment" ring a bell? There are major tax dollars in play and attracting students from other districts is big money.

Open enrollment enables recruiting and it happens. What school district does Minnetonka's goalie live in? Anyone?

[chiefofmedicine]

ChiefOfMedicine need to smoke um peace pipe.

what?

[pipes3030]

1. How on earth would you work section tournaments with a field of 16? Eight sections of 2? 4 sections of 4, with a back-door for the 2nd place finisher? We also lucked into an incredibly round number...what happens if another private adds a hockey program, or one of the above folds?

Actually it's 17...you forgot the Saints.

Funny, they aren't on the list of "cooperatively sponsored programs" in this year's State Tournament program. Good catch.

At any rate, this only makes the logistics of a private tournament even more difficult. Adding another team to a section of 8 or 9 teams isn't too big of a deal, but it does when we're talking of sections of 2 or 4. That throws one of the sections off quite a bit from the other ones.

I'm not for an all private tourney at all, but one idea might be to do what the NCAA does and have a 16 team playoff (in this case there would be a play-in game to play a "top" seed)....Just a thought.

[WayOutWest]

Second, I would have to say that private schools, or at least Breck, is worse. I say this because I was talking to a Warroad player who happened to attend a camp with someone who played for Breck. The Breck player told him that he did not have to pay the tuition, like most players on the team don't(or at least on a lower scale), because someone pays it for him and his family. They said it was the person who helped pay for their arena.
Third, if someone honestly believes that the level of education is equal between a public and private school they are delusional. Use common sense, people don't pay up to $26,000 for something they could get for their property taxes.
Finally, I just want to be clear. I have no problem with kids who are attracted to play at a certain program because they are succcessful, whether the school is public or private. That is the players decsion and I find it hard to be mad at the school for that. I do have a problem when kids are recruited and are given special insentives to play there.

Eggs-ZACK-ed-lee !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But this just highlights the "unlevel playing field" argument. When kids and their parents can be attracted to receiving a 26K yearly perk, and a better educational experience, that is one heck of a weapon that no public school has in its arsenal.
I don't blame kids for taking the offer either. It just isn't fair to then place teams made up of such kids in the same class as public school kids.

[WayOutWest]

[quote="karl(east)"]

1) Private School Class - 16 teams sounds fine. There's nothing difficult, here. And perhaps 4 go to state. Who cares? Is that an added incentive for kids to migrate to private schools, because they have a great chance to appear in state? Doubtful. It's a 16 team class. Big deal.
Would it be a "joke?" Would the privates not be happy? Private schools are all about better educational opportunities, or a parochial education, right? We're only talking about hockey, here.

2) Co-ops - Private school class. As long as your co-op still owns the benefits of a private school, even for only half or a third of your team, you have advantages over and above public schools. Co-op with another public instead, if you like.

3) Who would the public school supporters root against? Unless you live in the city limits of Edina, I can think of one particular school that might be a popular option. Other than that, I am sure you'll think of something.

4) What would this do to A or AA? Are you going to try and argue that all good hockey talent would then migrate to private schools? You're not serious, are you?