What do you think of having 4 refs on ice?

[Charliedog]

They said this was a trial run to see how it goes. One thing that makes me nervous is that historically refs have written off some of the minor infractions to tournament jitters. I just hope it doesn't change the momentum of the games.

[youngblood08]

How about trying it out during the regular season instead of now. Slow whistles and real marginal calls. Some are based on just positioning by the refs. The refs have to get used to it also but this is not the place for experiments.

[SouthrenHockey44]

[quote="youngblood08"]How about trying it out during the regular season instead of now. Slow whistles and real marginal calls. Some are based on just positioning by the refs. The refs have to get used to it also but this is not the place for experiments.[/quote]

I agree....speaking of bad calls, did anyone see the 2 n 10 Checking from behind call first period of Warrod Hutch? weak call

[karl(east)]

I agree that this is an odd time to be thrying out something new.

So far it seems like more penalties are being called, but most of them have seemed justified (with a few exceptions, such as the one mentioned above). I'd also be slightly concerned about refs getting in the way of play, since they do enough of that with three of them on the ice. I'll wait until after seeing a few games in person tomorrow to make a judgment, though.

[Rossbury21]

It's unnecessary, when they are talking about cutting five games a season, why are they thinking about adding referees.

[ref101]

I agree that this is an odd time to be thrying out something new.

So far it seems like more penalties are being called, but most of them have seemed justified (with a few exceptions, such as the one mentioned above). I'd also be slightly concerned about refs getting in the way of play, since they do enough of that with three of them on the ice. I'll wait until after seeing a few games in person tomorrow to make a judgment, though.

The (4 person) on-ice system is very similar to the 3 person used during the regular season. The added linesman relieves the referee's from offside and icing calls, allowing more concentration on the play(ers). The systems are very close and shouldn't cause anyone to be "neverous"....

[viewfromthetop]

Way too many officials on the ice. There was a day when all they had was two referees, then they added the linesman and now they add a second linesman. Lets go down to four on four then we can equalize it. Four home skaters, four visitor skaters, and four officials skating. Get them out of the way!

[youngblood08]

I agree that this is an odd time to be thrying out something new.

So far it seems like more penalties are being called, but most of them have seemed justified (with a few exceptions, such as the one mentioned above). I'd also be slightly concerned about refs getting in the way of play, since they do enough of that with three of them on the ice. I'll wait until after seeing a few games in person tomorrow to make a judgment, though.

The (4 person) on-ice system is very similar to the 3 person used during the regular season. The added linesman relieves the referee's from offside and icing calls, allowing more concentration on the play(ers). The systems are very close and shouldn't cause anyone to be "neverous"....

Typical ref thinking it's about them. By "Nerveous" he was reffering to the players just being there playing in the biggest stage of their lives, not worried about 4 refs on the ice.

[adamp1914]

I agree that this is an odd time to be thrying out something new.

So far it seems like more penalties are being called, but most of them have seemed justified (with a few exceptions, such as the one mentioned above). I'd also be slightly concerned about refs getting in the way of play, since they do enough of that with three of them on the ice. I'll wait until after seeing a few games in person tomorrow to make a judgment, though.

This.

[MNHockeyFan]

This same discussion came up on the girls thread before their tournament a couple of weeks ago. Here is a post by a referee that was posted there:

"For all those concerned about having goal judges, they have always been used and will be used this year as well. Goal judges "assist" the referees and are not the deciding factor on a goal. The on ice officials make that determination. Just because the light does on does not mean it's a goal and vice versa just because the light didn't go on doesn't mean it wasn't a goal. instant replay is also used to assist the on ice officials on goals.

As for too many officials on the ice, the 2-2 system actually allows for less opportunity to interfere with play as the two referees no longer have any line responsibility. The 2-2 system generally will have all of the players between the tow referees instead of the Referee being stuck in the middle of a bunch of players. They are also free to transition behind the net to avoid play which is not generally done in the current 2-1 system.

The transition from 2-1 to 2-2 is not that difficult that a lengthy learning process is needed. The mechanics are basically the same. The main difference is that the stripes do not have line responsibility. Aside from that it is pretty much the same but allows for better overall coverage of the game. If it didn't make sense to do it the WCHA and NHL would have never gone to it.

Having said all of that I do not think it is a system that is needed or should be adopted for regular season play as it costs more money to put another official on the ice and we don't need to be raising fees any more if possible. For the state tourney I think the players deserve the best officials and the best system to allow the teams to be the show and not the officials."

[Nonamer]

Didn't happen during the regular season, why should it start now? Absolutely against using this pinnacle of high school sports as a guinea pig for a bunch of know-it-all wannabe high school sports supervisors. What's next? Swimming all season long in a pool marked in yards, then holding the state swim meet in a metered pool? Fugetabotit!

[starmvp]

Three refs is all you need. Maybe in the big games at the Xcel at the end of the year?

[ACTUALFORMERPLAYER]

Three good ones is enough. Four guys looking up at the stands is bad.

[Rossbury21]

Three good ones is enough. Four guys looking up at the stands is bad.

Haha

[HockeyHigh]

Maybe with 4 referees you'll be able to avoid something like this in your state title game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ0gxs2m ... 1&index=41

[inthestands]

Has anyone witnessed anything that would lead them to believe there is a problem with the 4 man system? Either in the girls tourney, or so far in the boys?

From what I've seen on site, and on television the additional linesman gives the back referee more lattitude to watch play with no line responsibility.

I didn't see where any of the calls in question would have been made differently with 3 instead of 4, but you never know unless you are out there on the ice.

Any of the people giving input here ever officiate high school hockey? Just wondering...

[youngblood08]

Has anyone witnessed anything that would lead them to believe there is a problem with the 4 man system? Either in the girls tourney, or so far in the boys?

From what I've seen on site, and on television the additional linesman gives the back referee more lattitude to watch play with no line responsibility.

I didn't see where any of the calls in question would have been made differently with 3 instead of 4, but you never know unless you are out there on the ice.

Any of the people giving input here ever officiate high school hockey? Just wondering...

There were a couple of very bad calls in the first game. Just looked like the refs were justifiying their presence in the first 2 games. The guy in the first game was bad.

[inthestands]

Has anyone witnessed anything that would lead them to believe there is a problem with the 4 man system? Either in the girls tourney, or so far in the boys?

From what I've seen on site, and on television the additional linesman gives the back referee more lattitude to watch play with no line responsibility.

I didn't see where any of the calls in question would have been made differently with 3 instead of 4, but you never know unless you are out there on the ice.

Any of the people giving input here ever officiate high school hockey? Just wondering...

There were a couple of very bad calls in the first game. Just looked like the refs were justifiying their presence in the first 2 games. The guy in the first game was bad.

I don't have an opinion on the quality of officiating in any of the game. If there were bad calls made,

I believe they would be made with 2, 3 or 4 people working the game.

The people working state tourney games are suppose to be the top of the field officials. It would be interesting to see the breakdown of which reffing associations the state tournament groups come from, how many members those groups have, and how many games each of the groups do during the regular season.

[ref101]

Has anyone witnessed anything that would lead them to believe there is a problem with the 4 man system? Either in the girls tourney, or so far in the boys?

From what I've seen on site, and on television the additional linesman gives the back referee more lattitude to watch play with no line responsibility.

I didn't see where any of the calls in question would have been made differently with 3 instead of 4, but you never know unless you are out there on the ice.

Any of the people giving input here ever officiate high school hockey? Just wondering...

5 tourneys, 34 years...
the 4-person system should add penalty coverage around the blue lines (referee no involved in offside/icings). Should show very little difference in the attacking zone and around the net, and goals are covered by referee/goal judges/video.

[adamp1914]

4 refs with the striped not having any line duty makes it so they can focus on the play / players more.

It's a good idea in theory, since I guess the idea is that the kids are kept safer and the refs can more closely enforce the rules.

They interfere with the play less due to obvious transitioning fixes.. But the result is not the intention here.

There were several VERY bad calls during the first four games. Granted, not a whole lot of penalties got missed, but it seemed like the refs were calling penalties on every single big hit. The fact that they have no line duty caused them to over scrutinize the play and call several things that should have just been left alone.

The amount of interference penalties was just ridiculous. There was a call for interference in the Breck / Lourdes game where the Breck defensemen stepped up and hit the Lourdes forward like a half second after he tipped the puck into the zone. There was a very clean hit also in front of the net that was called for no reason other than it being a big hit. Then the ref was like, "uh... yea, high stick? sounds good."

Let them play. Stop over compensating and get the fourth ref off the ice.

[ref101]

Has anyone witnessed anything that would lead them to believe there is a problem with the 4 man system? Either in the girls tourney, or so far in the boys?

From what I've seen on site, and on television the additional linesman gives the back referee more lattitude to watch play with no line responsibility.

I didn't see where any of the calls in question would have been made differently with 3 instead of 4, but you never know unless you are out there on the ice.

Any of the people giving input here ever officiate high school hockey? Just wondering...

There were a couple of very bad calls in the first game. Just looked like the refs were justifiying their presence in the first 2 games. The guy in the first game was bad.

I don't have an opinion on the quality of officiating in any of the game. If there were bad calls made,

I believe they would be made with 2, 3 or 4 people working the game.

The people working state tourney games are suppose to be the top of the field officials. It would be interesting to see the breakdown of which reffing associations the state tournament groups come from, how many members those groups have, and how many games each of the groups do during the regular season.

I don't have the exact breakdowns, generally speaking officials are invited from around the state, north, south and the 3 groups around the metro. The MSHSL has a grading system (coaches grade the officials), says it's used for part of the selection process, but poorly administered (officials barely see 20% of coaches respond). Game selection is generally based on officials vs teams, ie. 2 metro teams playing will probably see an outstate crew, etc..., some tourney performance may/will factor into second/third rounds, the supervisor of officials selects/assigns as team/tourney games complete, officials move between A and AA as assigned.

[ref101]

4 refs with the striped not having any line duty makes it so they can focus on the play / players more.

It's a good idea in theory, since I guess the idea is that the kids are kept safer and the refs can more closely enforce the rules.

They interfere with the play less due to obvious transitioning fixes.. But the result is not the intention here.

There were several VERY bad calls during the first four games. Granted, not a whole lot of penalties got missed, but it seemed like the refs were calling penalties on every single big hit. The fact that they have no line duty caused them to over scrutinize the play and call several things that should have just been left alone.

The amount of interference penalties was just ridiculous. There was a call for interference in the Breck / Lourdes game where the Breck defensemen stepped up and hit the Lourdes forward like a half second after he tipped the puck into the zone. There was a very clean hit also in front of the net that was called for no reason other than it being a big hit. Then the ref was like, "uh... yea, high stick? sounds good."

Let them play. Stop over compensating and get the fourth ref off the ice.

Can't help ya with any of that......

[inthestands]

Thanks ref101, I kinda figured you may have first hand experience.

Bottom line if good or bad calls are to be made, I doubt having that extra official will make a difference in the style of game calling done.

When we get to the "let them play" spectators, and have the MSHSL directing the officials in a different manner it will be difficult to see common ground.

I guess that's probably never going to change as far as the differences between people watching a sporting event, and the people officiating that same event.

It's a much different game from the stands when you aren't responsible for overseeing the entire game, and not just one side, player or play.

[ref101]

Thanks ref101, I kinda figured you may have first hand experience.

Bottom line if good or bad calls are to be made, I doubt having that extra official will make a difference in the style of game calling done.

When we get to the "let them play" spectators, and have the MSHSL directing the officials in a different manner it will be difficult to see common ground.

I guess that's probably never going to change as far as the differences between people watching a sporting event, and the people officiating that same event.

It's a much different game from the stands when you aren't responsible for overseeing the entire game, and not just one side, player or play.

Would agree....

Another point (benefit) of the 4-person system, it allows the inside official to freely roam behind the net to avoid traffic. The outside official reads the inside official and floats from side to side accordingly. Watching the Blaine game today, the officials are moving freely to avoid any traffic and allowing players to use the entire zone(s) without interference of the official.

[GopherPuckPlayer]

To many quick whistle every where on the ice.