Why no squirt state tournament?

[black sheep]

Oldtimer, thanks for your post and while I don't think I have the answer on MH's stance, you have confirmed for me a thought I shared in my earlier post. For some reason, we are afraid of ourselves and what we might do at a youth hockey game. So instead of correcting the behavior, we try and remove the venue for the behavior to manifest itself.

DING DING DING....we have a winner

8,9,10,11 yr olds can handle a state tournament just fine, two examples...

Little league baseball has, get ready...A WORLD SERIES, ok so the kids are 12 but nonetheless.

There is another sport in MN that is very popular where two kids walk out onto a mat and contest in an individual match which is concluded by adding up points and heaven forbid the referee raises the winners hand in victory. These young children have regional, state and national competitions. BARBARIANS...i think not.

Is there a need for a state tournament....no
Is it because a 10 yr old can't handle the pressure of the game...no
Is not having a state tounament to protect 10 yr olds from crazy people...yes

Look in the mirror people...you will find the answer.

[puckfan]

Is there a need for a state tournament....no
Is it because a 10 yr old can't handle the pressure of the game...no
Is not having a state tournament to protect 10 yr olds from crazy people...yes

Thank you, somebody gets it!

I would like to think that people could get away from the " to much pressure/their only 10(11)(12) " tired old statement.

There are plenty of kids who can and do deal with pressure everyday. I was at my son's school for conferences the other day and hold on .......he was given letter grades for his school work. The teacher even posted the scores of how the other kids did on a mid year math exam on the white board and some had A's B's, C's D's and even F's (long ago this use to be a chalk board for all those that want to think about how it use to be). Then I walked down the hallway of the first graders and saw that they posted reading points for the student on the wall...........now that is real pressure for these kids and we send them there all day long.

I'm glad my son is learning early on how to deal with "pressure" rather than waiting until he's 14(no matter where it comes from).

[elliott70]

JoltDelivered

I think the kids who get to go would have a blast and remember it for years to come.

Kids have a blast if you take them to the water park, take them ice fishing, or play boot hockey in the driveway with them.

As for remembering it for years to come....
perhaps, but I can't see it. I have coached one sport or another for 38 years. A lot of kids, some remember everything, some remember nothing, most remember bits and pieces and very little of the games themselves.

So, I still need convincing as to why I would bring something like this to the MH board.

[JoltDelivered]

Because it woud be fun!

I don't know why it needs to be anymore complicated or complex.
But I get what your saying, we got a bunch of guys playing Bud Selig and Roger Goodell over a children's sport and you would need a federal case laid out in front of them to get them to change their mind. I get it. I understand there's a process here. But again, that wasn't the purpose of my original post. I'm not advocating a big push towards MH to change the current rules.

My original question was why hasn't MH had a state squirt tournament? Lots of other states do this for their squirts. The only logical reason I can think of is MH must fear some sort of unwanted byproduct will come from it and I'm curious is to what their official stance is. Hey, if nobody knows, that's cool too.

Answer me this Elliott - why does MH allow our squirts to play in tournaments throughout the season?

p.s. - But I sense your frustration (I see it in your bold letters). Like you I have not heard a good reason either.

[defense]

I am not against a squirt state tournement because I want to "shelter" the kids from losing. I hate the everyone wins mentality, what the heck is 1st place for????
The reason I don't like a state squirt tournement is what are we accomplishing???? almost NO kids are even nearing the point where they are really finding their game yet. In Alexandria they may teach a system hockey and in Detroit Lakes the kids get to run around more...who will win?? guess...and why? because they are in a system, not because they are better. Don Lucia's recent outline on the subject should be read.
Hockey is a lot different than baseball. In baseball we have throwing, catching running, hitting...all in less than a minute spurts. Playing a baseball game requires each kid on the fieldto perform these disciiplines. Hockey includes something we don't natrurally do as humans: skating along with stick handling, passing, shooting, scoring, defense, offense, goaltending...etc... NOT every kid who touches the ice has to perform all of these but has a better chance at performing more of them in a more free type of game. My point is: A squirt tournement will only be about wich team has the better system, wich is detrimental to developement(and not that fun for a slower kid). This in turn may force more programs who otherwise would let kids develop and become comfortable with their own skills in a game situation to go to a system for games, wich would eat up practice time (wich they do not get enough of) and lead to less rounded players. I believe the pond hockey film would further explain my explanation. Its all about individual skills working together as a team being creative and most of all having fun.

[JoltDelivered]

defense - very well stated.

Woudn't this hold true for pee wees too?

They are still very much in a developmental age where emphasis on individual skill is still important.

[defense]

defense - very well stated.

Woudn't this hold true for pee wees too?

They are still very much in a developmental age where emphasis on individual skill is still important.

Absolutely could, I would not be completely agianst it.

[elliott70]

Because it woud be fun!

I don't know why it needs to be anymore complicated or complex.
But I get what your saying, we got a bunch of guys playing Bud Selig and Roger Goodell over a children's sport and you would need a federal case laid out in front of them to get them to change their mind. I get it. I understand there's a process here. But again, that wasn't the purpose of my original post. I'm not advocating a big push towards MH to change the current rules.

My original question was why hasn't MH had a state squirt tournament? Lots of other states do this for their squirts. The only logical reason I can think of is MH must fear some sort of unwanted byproduct will come from it and I'm curious is to what their official stance is. Hey, if nobody knows, that's cool too.

Answer me this Elliott - why does MH allow our squirts to play in tournaments throughout the season?

p.s. - But I sense your frustration (I see it in your bold letters). Like you I have not heard a good reason either.

No frustration, after I entered it I saw it was difficult to see where I had typed, so I made it bold just to make it easier to read.

Don't ask that question to loud, there are those that would eliminate or limit squirt tournaments.

The reason (and I am coming by this via various discussions over the long-term that I have been part of the dinosaur, is that squirt hockey should be fun and developmental and not a big thing. No coaches looking to be the state champs, no Dads (it could be Moms) complaining that they are not playing to win, keep the game as simple as possible. Meaning everyone kills penalties, everyone is on the power play.

According to Jack Baltherwick and other educated guys the real development starts at or around puberty.... say 12, second year peewees.
Before that, learn to skate as well as you can with and without a stick, learn to skate with the puck on the stick, learn to skate with stick and puck and make room for a play, learn to skate with the puck in tight situations. Skate, skate, skate....

Of course the trade-off is kids want to emulate older kids and play the game. MH makes it easy then for coaches & assn that want to do the best for the development by mandating 35 games.

If it were not for the inability to control gung-ho coaches, parents and assn.; you might see squirt state. But you will not see it for along time unless there is a complete change in the Board and the Board controls who is on the board.


Sorry to make this so long, but nothing is as simple as it seems, especially for a bunch of older (not old) men and a couple of women.

[elliott70]

defense - very well stated.

Woudn't this hold true for pee wees too?

They are still very much in a developmental age where emphasis on individual skill is still important.

Absolutely could, I would not be completely agianst it.

And that has been discussed, especially at peewee B.

[black sheep]

MH makes it easy then for coaches & assn that want to do the best for the development by mandating 35 games.

So does MH mandate 70 practices too? Or 105 practices...to get to a 2:1 or a 3:1 Ratio.

The math: Nov- March, 5 months, 20 weeks...to hit 2:1 your squirt team needs 3.5 practices / week for 35 games.

If you want to get European standards, that is 5.25 practices per week.

So is MH really making it easy??????

[JoltDelivered]

I feel ya Elliott.

So let me come from a slightly different angle. I hear all the time, hockey parents are nuts, goofy and unable to be rational. They lose control and forget this whole thing is for the kids. Heck, you typed it yourself - gung ho parents, coaches, etc....

But in the same breathe you type:

and the Board controls who is on the board

Isn't this telling who the nut jobs and goofballs really are? They look down from the mount and say, "I'm the calm one. I know best. It's just children playing a game. Back off on the rush to competition" Yet they will expend every ounce of energy to keep the inner circle unchanged. To stay in charge of the children... To be important... To preserve their slice of control?

God forbid we have a squirt state torunament...

[BarryMcConnell]

I don't believe "it's fun" is a strong enough argument to consider having a state tourney at the squirt level. What does a squirt state tourney accomplish? Fun for the kids or bigger ego's for the parents and adult coaches?? I don't believe that the kids sitting on the bench while the "better" players go win the game are going to tell you they had "fun". Let's stop worrying about winning games at the younger levels and work on developing hockey players.

Look at what's happened with the B level state tourneys. Running 1 B team in a strong association or unbalanced teams at the same level just to have the opportunity to play in the state tourney. Is this still "fun"? Are we now getting away from development just to hang a banner? Winning games does not always translate directly into "fun" for the kids. We do not need a Squirt State Tourney!

[elliott70]

MH makes it easy then for coaches & assn that want to do the best for the development by mandating 35 games.

So does MH mandate 70 practices too? Or 105 practices...to get to a 2:1 or a 3:1 Ratio.

The math: Nov- March, 5 months, 20 weeks...to hit 2:1 your squirt team needs 3.5 practices / week for 35 games.

If you want to get European standards, that is 5.25 practices per week.

So is MH really making it easy??????

I guess you don't have to play 35 games.
In the north its Nov - March for the most part, but metro I think there is a lot of Oct hockey.

The ratio does not necessarily have to be met every week.

Early season one would hope there are 3 or 4 practices and no games for a couple of weeks.

When I scheduled Bemidji's ice (a long time ago) we had 3 practices and then a game. There were exceptions to that, like I said early on just practices and then later a tourney thrown in here and there picked up the # of games.

In the metro with more demand for ice it is ough to play 35 and practice 70, but if you play 30 and practice 60 you have a nice ratio.

In the north they play 30-35 and practice 70-90.

If you have squirt C teams that everyone is in agreement it is for recreation, you can have 25 games and 25 practices.

[elliott70]

So is MH really making it easy??????

They make it easy for the coach or assn to pass the 'blame' on to MH for the reason they are not playing 70 games.

[goinbardown]

I don't believe "it's fun" is a strong enough argument to consider having a state tourney at the squirt level. What does a squirt state tourney accomplish? Fun for the kids or bigger ego's for the parents and adult coaches?? I don't believe that the kids sitting on the bench while the "better" players go win the game are going to tell you they had "fun". Let's stop worrying about winning games at the younger levels and work on developing hockey players.

Look at what's happened with the B level state tourneys. Running 1 B team in a strong association or unbalanced teams at the same level just to have the opportunity to play in the state tourney. Is this still "fun"? Are we now getting away from development just to hang a banner? Winning games does not always translate directly into "fun" for the kids. We do not need a Squirt State Tourney!

Then what is the point of a Peewee State Champion or a Bantam State Champion? Not everyone gets to play on those teams. I've played some elite level squirt A teams that don't really play there 3rd line even when it isn't really close in score and I didn't hear any complaining in the stands.

[elliott70]

I don't believe "it's fun" is a strong enough argument to consider having a state tourney at the squirt level. What does a squirt state tourney accomplish? Fun for the kids or bigger ego's for the parents and adult coaches?? I don't believe that the kids sitting on the bench while the "better" players go win the game are going to tell you they had "fun". Let's stop worrying about winning games at the younger levels and work on developing hockey players.

Look at what's happened with the B level state tourneys. Running 1 B team in a strong association or unbalanced teams at the same level just to have the opportunity to play in the state tourney. Is this still "fun"? Are we now getting away from development just to hang a banner? Winning games does not always translate directly into "fun" for the kids. We do not need a Squirt State Tourney!

Then what is the point of a Peewee State Champion or a Bantam State Champion? Not everyone gets to play on those teams. I've played some elite level squirt A teams that don't really play there 3rd line even when it isn't really close in score and I didn't hear any complaining in the stands.

Its not right at those levels either, for the most part.
Extending it to another level just because it is done at a higher level is like my mother telling me 'Would you jump off the bridge just because everyone else did?'

Good thing she was talking about the Golden Gate, because we did jump off some local bridges.

[trippedovertheblueline]

I don't think MH should have a state championship at the squirt level.....Unless specific rules over playing time is enforced, like they do in baseball.

With a squirt state championship being thhe carrot, I see many coaches shorting the bench. If some are doing it now, more will with a bigger prize at the end of the game.

This is also why, I was not in favor of the Excel hosting a state championship for the Peewees, Bantams etc.. Make the prize so big and make a big deal out of it,( TV ETC.) then our young athletes are very well watching a select few teammates play during the game. Coaches like many humans would, are pressured to get there.

[JoltDelivered]

Trip:

My oldest son has been playing travelling baseball for the last 4 years in the MYAS league. I never knew there were playing time requirements. I'm not doubting you, but I've never heard of that.

Who keeps track of the innings played by each player to make sure it's even? The ump? A parent?

[whockeyguy]

I'll give one reason for Mn Hockey to get behind the wheel on having a squirt state tourny,This two more teams they can bring to the X at the end of the year and sell the tv rights for it, I cant believe Mn Hockey get behind this with all the money it would bring them.

[iwearmysunglassesatnight]

[quote="JoltDelivered"]Trip:

My oldest son has been playing travelling baseball for the last 4 years in the MYAS league. I never knew there were playing time requirements. I'm not doubting you, but I've never heard of that.

Who keeps track of the innings played by each player to make sure it's even? The ump? A parent?[/quote]

I don't know if this is enforced by the league or association - maybe both.
At 10's - 12's no player willl sit more then 1 inning, until all have sat 1 inning, maximum innings sat is 2 per regulation game. At 13's it is a 3 inning max. At 14's it is 9 man baseball. You maybe sitting the whole game.

[elliott70]

Trip:

My oldest son has been playing travelling baseball for the last 4 years in the MYAS league. I never knew there were playing time requirements. I'm not doubting you, but I've never heard of that.

Who keeps track of the innings played by each player to make sure it's even? The ump? A parent?

Little League as well as some others have playing time requirements.

Cal Ripken does not at the traveling level, but most local organizations have it internally.

MYAS does not.

Bu we pound those guys every year anyways.

[elliott70]

I'll give one reason for Mn Hockey to get behind the wheel on having a squirt state tourny,This two more teams they can bring to the X at the end of the year and sell the tv rights for it, I cant believe Mn Hockey get behind this with all the money it would bring them.

State tourneys do not make any money for MH.
Most of MH funds are derived from membership fees and fees for hosting invitational tourneys.

Elite (select) programs are designed to break even with fees charged to players. They do for the most part unless you want to argue admin costs that do not go into the calcualtion.

[whockeyguy]

Elliott , but if the X got them and big dollars from all the people that would attend , man i think the coffers would be lined pretty well,, Ill help you out if you cant read between the lines{Sarcasim} NOWAY should ther be a state tounry for squirts heck some communities dont even allow then travel