I saw this mentioned as a side comment in another thread and thought it deserved its own space. I have heard parents in rinks complaining that their team is being "shafted" with a lower than deserved district seeding because they have lost too many FPP. My opinion, as was the poster on the other thread, is that if teams are consistantly losing their FPPs it is a direct reflection upon poor coaching.
I am guessing that there is at least one team at each level in each district that falls into this catagory.
FPP and District Seeding
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muckandgrind
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Re: FPP and District Seeding
How are they being "shafted"? The rules are the rules and everyone should know them coming into the season. If their team is continually losing their FPP, than as you say, then the only person they should be pointing their finger at is the coach.Barman wrote:I saw this mentioned as a side comment in another thread and thought it deserved its own space. I have heard parents in rinks complaining that their team is being "shafted" with a lower than deserved district seeding because they have lost too many FPP. My opinion, as was the poster on the other thread, is that if teams are consistantly losing their FPPs it is a direct reflection upon poor coaching.
I am guessing that there is at least one team at each level in each district that falls into this catagory.
I do agree that coaches need to be responsible for not letting their kids take dumb penalties. However, I also see lots of games where referees start sending the better team to the box to make the game more even. I have seen games where one team is allowed to trip and hook the other team because they are losing 5 or 6 to 0. Then when the better team checks the other team it is called roughing. If FPP are used, referees should be held accountable for not evening up games. I have seen too many times when the number of penalties for each team matched their score.
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muckandgrind
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Great point.gohawk4 wrote:I do agree that coaches need to be responsible for not letting their kids take dumb penalties. However, I also see lots of games where referees start sending the better team to the box to make the game more even. I have seen games where one team is allowed to trip and hook the other team because they are losing 5 or 6 to 0. Then when the better team checks the other team it is called roughing. If FPP are used, referees should be held accountable for not evening up games. I have seen too many times when the number of penalties for each team matched their score.
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muckandgrind
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Great point.gohawk4 wrote:I do agree that coaches need to be responsible for not letting their kids take dumb penalties. However, I also see lots of games where referees start sending the better team to the box to make the game more even. I have seen games where one team is allowed to trip and hook the other team because they are losing 5 or 6 to 0. Then when the better team checks the other team it is called roughing. If FPP are used, referees should be held accountable for not evening up games. I have seen too many times when the number of penalties for each team matched their score.
Fair Play Points are not 'fair' for several reasons, a couple of reason besides the one given:
1. Inconsistency between refs.
Team A gets Ref 1 to 4 on a regular basis, these fellows are good refs but like to keep things by the book and tend to call more penalties the refs 5 to 8. Team B gets refs 5 to 8 more often.
Team A loses a couple of fair play points and falls behind Team B, even though they beat team B twice in district play.
2. application process of fair play points and its effect on other teams.
Same as above Team A goes undefeated in an 8 team league with 7 wins.
Team B is second with 3 losses and Team C is third with 3 losses.
Regular standings without fair play points:
1 Team A
2 Team B
3 Team C
4 Team D
A is clearly the best team, B & C split during the year and are very even.
D and the rest are what they are.
So we throw in the fair play points.
Team B
Team A
Team C
Team D
Everyone wins in the first round and now we have semis...
B plays D and A plays C.
B wins but now C has to play a team that they have not beat and have little chance of beating. Without fair play points they would be playing team B who they beat once during the year and lost a 2 goal (w en) game.
They would have a chance to beat team B. The top two go to regions.
So because of fair play points TEAM C, at no fault of their own - they got all their fair play points, has no chance at advancing to regions.
Team C is punished, Team A has no punishment. Team B gets an advantage because of fair play points.
And if it is based on example #1 above, it is just the luck of the draw.
Penalties are part of the game.
The team that takes too many penalties is at a disadvantage and usually loses.
There are better ways to monitor and control coaches and players that blatantly do not follow the rules.
1. Inconsistency between refs.
Team A gets Ref 1 to 4 on a regular basis, these fellows are good refs but like to keep things by the book and tend to call more penalties the refs 5 to 8. Team B gets refs 5 to 8 more often.
Team A loses a couple of fair play points and falls behind Team B, even though they beat team B twice in district play.
2. application process of fair play points and its effect on other teams.
Same as above Team A goes undefeated in an 8 team league with 7 wins.
Team B is second with 3 losses and Team C is third with 3 losses.
Regular standings without fair play points:
1 Team A
2 Team B
3 Team C
4 Team D
A is clearly the best team, B & C split during the year and are very even.
D and the rest are what they are.
So we throw in the fair play points.
Team B
Team A
Team C
Team D
Everyone wins in the first round and now we have semis...
B plays D and A plays C.
B wins but now C has to play a team that they have not beat and have little chance of beating. Without fair play points they would be playing team B who they beat once during the year and lost a 2 goal (w en) game.
They would have a chance to beat team B. The top two go to regions.
So because of fair play points TEAM C, at no fault of their own - they got all their fair play points, has no chance at advancing to regions.
Team C is punished, Team A has no punishment. Team B gets an advantage because of fair play points.
And if it is based on example #1 above, it is just the luck of the draw.
Penalties are part of the game.
The team that takes too many penalties is at a disadvantage and usually loses.
There are better ways to monitor and control coaches and players that blatantly do not follow the rules.
observer wrote:Interesting but your thinking is way to complex and raises excuses for poor behavior vs. fair play.
Here's an idea. No penalties.
We already have that - pick-up shinny games.
It is not at all complex, it is what happens - every year.
There should be no excuse for poor behavior and for the most part it is not poor behavior.
And we have a system that monitors and punishes poor behavior.
Fair PLay Points was instituted for one reason - to monitor the success of the HEP program.
That is its purpose.
Information for District 16 over an 17-18 year period shows that FFP, HEP or anything else external is not a much of a factor in penalty minutes.
Most coaches (on the boys side) understand fair-play points and realize that they are going to lose 10% of them. They don't coach to not lose their fair-play point. They coach to win.
Well Put observer!!
The examples above hypothetic and a little contrived.
1./ A good coach will recognize a ref calling it by the book pretty quickly and can usually reign in his team and still win the game.
2./ Usually the teams in question get only about half of their FPPs. Therefore the disadvantaged team is one of the top seeds and still handles the bad actors easily in district play as the undisciplined team cannot change its stripes overnight.
The examples above hypothetic and a little contrived.
1./ A good coach will recognize a ref calling it by the book pretty quickly and can usually reign in his team and still win the game.
2./ Usually the teams in question get only about half of their FPPs. Therefore the disadvantaged team is one of the top seeds and still handles the bad actors easily in district play as the undisciplined team cannot change its stripes overnight.
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DannyNoonan
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You two have not been paying much attention. Elliot's example is what happens. Just because a team loses it's fair play point doesn't mean it's an undisciplined team. The difference in referees is a big part of it. This is something that needs to be addressed.Barman wrote:Well Put observer!!
The examples above hypothetic and a little contrived.
Unfortunatey, I see it every year and worse, since our refs are not assigned at the district level but by each assn.Barman wrote:Well Put observer!!
The examples above hypothetic and a little contrived.
1./ A good coach will recognize a ref calling it by the book pretty quickly and can usually reign in his team and still win the game.
2./ Usually the teams in question get only about half of their FPPs. Therefore the disadvantaged team is one of the top seeds and still handles the bad actors easily in district play as the undisciplined team cannot change its stripes overnight.
FFP have little to do with disciplined or undisciplined team.
Most of the time a team retains its fair play point.
Its those times when the refs for different reasons call a lot of penalties, regardless of what the coach is doing 85 feet away from the play.
Danny, you're getting too hung up on hair splitting. I agree with elliot that all teams will lose about 10% of their FPP for whatever reason (and that will tend to even out) but those are not the undisciplined teams that I am referring to. The teams that can't figure it out are the ones that can only pick up a FPP when Eddie Shore is the ref.
Those teams should be (and are at least in D16) dealt with in a whole dfiferent manner than FFP.Barman wrote:Danny, you're getting too hung up on hair splitting. I agree with elliot that all teams will lose about 10% of their FPP for whatever reason (and that will tend to even out) but those are not the undisciplined teams that I am referring to. The teams that can't figure it out are the ones that can only pick up a FPP when Eddie Shore is the ref.
elliott70 wrote:Penalties are part of the game.
The team that takes too many penalties is at a disadvantage and usually loses.
There are better ways to monitor and control coaches and players that blatantly do not follow the rules.
Exactly. FPP stinks; the traditional rule books doesn't say 2 minutes and oh, even if you kill off the penalty, if you get too many of these you may lose your playoff position. That is dumber than the four types of results in the NHL-W-L-OTL-SOL.
Yeah, yeah, I know that is how MN Hockey is set up and we all understand this before the season. I'm not disputing that; I just don't think that is how MN Hockey should operate.