Class A rankings (1-12-09)

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:50 am

How is St Thomas that high? Look at their schedule; who they've played and beaten compared to other class A teams?
Warroad, great record, not many great wins, with a loss to SCC. They do have good teams the rest of the way though.
My question is how Little Falls is so high. I remember a few years ago when they had a similar record and everyone was talking about how they don't play a tough schedule and if they made it to state undefeated they still wouldn't be a top seed. They did make it to state but lost their two games. Not saying they're not a good team, they did beat SCC, but with their schedule, why are they so high?

SB24 · Post by **SB24** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:06 am

i understand that sta lost to good teams. so we wont count them...they also lost to Duluth marshall whos 7-5
shouldnt that loss alone drop them below a loss to 12-2 st. cloud cathedral?

dueling21 · Post by **dueling21** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:03 pm

That's one of the issues of doing comparative analysis of wins and losses...unless your team is unbeaten (i.e. Little Falls, Jefferson)...there are teams that have beaten you and teams you've beaten. Sometimes you're upset by a lower ranked team and sometimes you pull an upset. How much of an upset in either case? That's where the debate comes in.

You have to look at the overall picture instead of just cherry-picking certain wins and losses. What happened at the time? Was it early in the season or later? Did they run into a hot goalie or have a hot goalie themselves?

What about Hibbing in the Class A rankings? Shouldn't they also have a beef because they beat Marshall and International Falls? Or even because they beat Bemidji, which just beat a ranked team in Class AA (Moorhead)?

There may be as much debate about who is No. 16 than there is about who the top-15 are. And of course, out on the ice is where things are truly decided. That's why the rankings never stay static throughout the year...teams develop and teams drop off from what may have been expected. It's always a work in progress.

It sure makes it fun to debate, though!

On that note, I'm excited to see Little Falls Saturday at Fergus Falls. They're one of the few top teams I haven't seen so far, so that'll give me a good look at them...maybe they won't be No. 1 next week? We shall see...we shall see.

RamWarrior · Post by **RamWarrior** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 2:18 pm

If Little Falls can not take care of Fergus Falls they should be done with top 5 rankings the rest of the year based on that schedule!!!

dueling21 · Post by **dueling21** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:14 pm

RamWarrior wrote:If Little Falls can not take care of Fergus Falls they should be done with top 5 rankings the rest of the year based on that schedule!!!

I wasn't suggesting that Fergus Falls would win, only that I was interested in seeing Little Falls play. Even with what might be expected to be a rout, I'll still get something out of the way the Flyers look.

Mite-dad · Post by **Mite-dad** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:21 pm

dueling21 wrote:
RamWarrior wrote:If Little Falls can not take care of Fergus Falls they should be done with top 5 rankings the rest of the year based on that schedule!!!
I wasn't suggesting that Fergus Falls would win, only that I was interested in seeing Little Falls play. Even with what might be expected to be a rout, I'll still get something out of the way the Flyers look.

I wouldn't expect a rout. This is a rivalry game and FF has been playing better of late.

shins · Post by **shins** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:00 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote: My question is how Little Falls is so high. I remember a few years ago when they had a similar record and everyone was talking about how they don't play a tough schedule and if they made it to state undefeated they still wouldn't be a top seed. They did make it to state but lost their two games.

To be fair, I assume you are talking about two years ago when they played the #1 seed and eventual state champ Hermantown and lead 3-2 in the 3rd before losing and then did look bad the next day losing at Mariucci....... or did you mean last year when they played the #1 seed and eventual champ STA and were tied 3-3 half way through the 3rd before losing and then beat Blake and Mankato West.

This is not the same group that was run out of the X by Marshall 4 years ago.

The schedule for LF is not the greatest and I am not convinced that they are the #1 or #2 team in state right now, but I have a hard time coming up with a team that I would put above them.

hshckfan08 · Post by **hshckfan08** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:02 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:How is St Thomas that high? Look at their schedule; who they've played and beaten compared to other class A teams?
Warroad, great record, not many great wins, with a loss to SCC. They do have good teams the rest of the way though.
My question is how Little Falls is so high. I remember a few years ago when they had a similar record and everyone was talking about how they don't play a tough schedule and if they made it to state undefeated they still wouldn't be a top seed. They did make it to state but lost their two games. Not saying they're not a good team, they did beat SCC, but with their schedule, why are they so high?

Of course you would argue schedule. They can go play all the great teams they want. if they dont win them, why should they be better than a team who wins their games against average teams? The only top caliber team (debatable now) they have beaten would be hill murray who is in a slump and was at the time.. st thomas got handled by centennial and holy angels. . other than that, the rest of the teams are above average at best. (yes that includes minnetonka and moorhead). and not to mention they lost to a marshall team who is down this year.

shins is right, i think it is time to start giving little falls credit. the players can only go out and play their best each night, whoever they play, and they are taking care of those teams. They have been close the last 2 years and i think they will crack their luck at the x this year.

Theclassicburbs · Post by **Theclassicburbs** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:38 pm

Mahtomedi doesn't deserve to be in the top ten on anyones list! South St. Paul beat Red Wing and Mahtomedi and they are not ranked I dont think any of you have been really watching the games just looking at the MinnHock rankings so please reconsider using your common sense.

Theclassicburbs · Post by **Theclassicburbs** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:40 pm

scarlethockey33 wrote:very nice breakdown of Class A, I like the look of Little Falls at #1 for once instead of St. Thomas

I am sorry but Red Wing and Mahtomedi lost to South St. Paul and were in no shape or form better than the Packers so lets reconsider and use common sense thank you

TheBlizzard · Post by **TheBlizzard** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:35 pm

SSP beat up on RW pretty good, I agree they should have a spot in the top ten. They play very hard and make up for any talent they lack collectively. RW played them tough, it was 4-3 going into the 3rd but SSP got a few lucky goals early that sealed the deal, for some reason RW'ings goalie was not playing worth a crap. Either way they outplayed RW.

And Mahtomedi is overated, they are a 1 line wonder of a team. Take Ben Marshall and Tanner Jordan out of the game and they can't do anything.

State-of-Hockey · Post by **State-of-Hockey** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:21 am

ssp has lost to park and tartan. mahtomedi has lost to ssp and hill-murray. and both teams beat red wing by 3. pretty even teams

nikebauer_07 · Post by **nikebauer_07** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:24 am

Hibbing should be moving up in the polls after a win against Virginia tonight.

defense · Post by **defense** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:54 am

Mite-dad wrote:
dueling21 wrote:
RamWarrior wrote:If Little Falls can not take care of Fergus Falls they should be done with top 5 rankings the rest of the year based on that schedule!!!
I wasn't suggesting that Fergus Falls would win, only that I was interested in seeing Little Falls play. Even with what might be expected to be a rout, I'll still get something out of the way the Flyers look.
I wouldn't expect a rout. This is a rivalry game and FF has been playing better of late.

For the record Little Falls 9 Fergus Falls 2...Fergus Falls goes up 2-0 late in first, the score at the beginning of the second(meaning Little Falls scored 3 goals at the end of the 1st) was Little Falls up 3-2, that is just how quickly it goes. Fergus was obviously playing back for most of the game and gave the Flyers some easy ones, but Little Falls deserves to be in the top 2 say nothing of the top 5 period.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 10:16 am

hshckfan08, the team's schedule is what makes everything. To use an analogy here, at the beginning of the NCAA season The Air Force Academy went 12-0 then the following weekend beat Colorado, lost to Denver and made it to 13-1. They never cracked the top 9 in this whole time. Why is that? Because of their schedule. They could've probably won out and made it maybe as high as #6. Where as a team like MN can lose both their games in a weekend and only drop a couple spots. Strength of schedule matters.

Little Falls has 18 games tied up in conference games. Scheduling a few section games makes sense and they schedule SCC, then host a tourney, so that leaves one game and they schedule Brainerd. They need to make some decisions, maybe invite better teams to the tourney, or something. I remember two years ago (as I said) when Little Falls was winning a lot of their games and no one was giving them credit because of their schedule. Now they still have the same weak schedule, plus SCC, and we are supposed cut them slack?

Yes, St Thomas does have a tough schedule. They play is a pretty good section, in the Schwan Cup and schedule good A and AA non-conference teams. Shins, you are acting like St Thomas is the only school schedule should matter for. Schedule is the reason Edina is ranked over the undefeated Jefferson. Losses to good teams do matter. Holy Angels is a top 5 team in state. In the two games I saw Centennial play, I wasn't impressed, but they played better than St Thomas did, and that's what matters. Schedule is the reason an 11-1 Hutchinson is no where on anyone's radar. Schedule matters, period.
St Thomas beat Hill before they lost the players, which some could argue would make them play better if they knew something was coming.

In the end, as has been said before, rankings only really matter come March, I just think it's really backwards to be saying the exact opposite thing people have been saying for so long simply because they want two schools to be in a certain spot because of who they are.

defense · Post by **defense** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 12:24 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:hshckfan08, the team's schedule is what makes everything. To use an analogy here, at the beginning of the NCAA season The Air Force Academy went 12-0 then the following weekend beat Colorado, lost to Denver and made it to 13-1. They never cracked the top 9 in this whole time. Why is that? Because of their schedule. They could've probably won out and made it maybe as high as #6. Where as a team like MN can lose both their games in a weekend and only drop a couple spots. Strength of schedule matters.

Little Falls has 18 games tied up in conference games. Scheduling a few section games makes sense and they schedule SCC, then host a tourney, so that leaves one game and they schedule Brainerd. They need to make some decisions, maybe invite better teams to the tourney, or something. I remember two years ago (as I said) when Little Falls was winning a lot of their games and no one was giving them credit because of their schedule. Now they still have the same weak schedule, plus SCC, and we are supposed cut them slack?

Yes, St Thomas does have a tough schedule. They play is a pretty good section, in the Schwan Cup and schedule good A and AA non-conference teams. Shins, you are acting like St Thomas is the only school schedule should matter for. Schedule is the reason Edina is ranked over the undefeated Jefferson. Losses to good teams do matter. Holy Angels is a top 5 team in state. In the two games I saw Centennial play, I wasn't impressed, but they played better than St Thomas did, and that's what matters. Schedule is the reason an 11-1 Hutchinson is no where on anyone's radar. Schedule matters, period.
St Thomas beat Hill before they lost the players, which some could argue would make them play better if they knew something was coming.

In the end, as has been said before, rankings only really matter come March, I just think it's really backwards to be saying the exact opposite thing people have been saying for so long simply because they want two schools to be in a certain spot because of who they are.

Brainerd is in the Central Lakes Conference...

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:04 pm

My bad. They play every other team in their conference twice, so I just assumed they weren't. I guess we know what assuming does. Either way, that makes my point even more. That's another non-conference game they are choosing to play against a lesser opponent.

I'm by no means saying they are terrible, they are undefeated...but so is Hutch aside from their loss to AHA. The margin they beat teams by I bet is worse than a handful of other Class A teams would do though.

shins · Post by **shins** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:38 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:..... Shins, you are acting like St Thomas is the only school schedule should matter for. Schedule is the reason Edina is ranked over the undefeated Jefferson. Losses to good teams do matter.

I am assuming you got me mixed up with someone else, if not, I am not sure where that came from.

I think class A is down this year..... I would put STA a definite #1 and then it is a mess. I said before that I wasn't convinced that LF was the #2 team in state, but couldn't come up with a team I would definitely put above them. I thought Hermantown might be the team, but then a loss to I Falls followed up with the Broncos losing to a Greenway team that is not having a good year to put it mildly. Warroad lost to SCC, SCC lost to LF and Lourdes, Marshall beat STA but has had a couple of losses..... it is hard to find a team that has a definite claim to a top spot.

The problem with all the rankings is that every team can have a bad night, but I guarentee that if LF stumbles and loses a game down the stretch they will not be given the "oh well, it was an off night" treatment, instead it will be used as how they are not a top 10 team. All in all, who really cares about rankings...... it wouldn't matter if they didn't have the seeding at state process that they have now.

defense · Post by **defense** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:16 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:My bad. They play every other team in their conference twice, so I just assumed they weren't. I guess we know what assuming does. Either way, that makes my point even more. That's another non-conference game they are choosing to play against a lesser opponent.

I'm by no means saying they are terrible, they are undefeated...but so is Hutch aside from their loss to AHA. The margin they beat teams by I bet is worse than a handful of other Class A teams would do though.

Do the research, check the scores, then then talk. They had a close one with Sartell, who may be the surprise team in section 6, they pounded Fergus Falls last night....their scoring ability is their strength, and trust me as one of their cheif doubters through the years, they are for real.

elliott70 · Post by **elliott70** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:03 pm

1/18/09

1 Warroad
2 Little Falls
3 Hermantown
4 Mahtomedi
5 Hibbing
6 St cloud Cathedral
7 Breck
8 St Thomas
9 So St Paul
10 Duluth Marshall
11 Thief River Falls
12 Virginia
13 Rocester Lourdes
14 Totino
15 Alexandria

Others: Red Wing, Int'l. Falls, Orono, Duluth Denfeld, New Prague, Bemidji

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:04 pm

shins, my comment was in response to yours made on Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:00 pm.

Wow, defense, someone makes a mistake a we crucify them. You're right, their scoring ability is their strength; when you play the schedule they do it would be for anyone. Once they meet a team with a good offense and any sort of defense at all they will be done, as they have been in the past.

elliot70, your cluster of private schools outside the top 5 is nice

defense · Post by **defense** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:17 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:shins, my comment was in response to yours made on Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:00 pm.

Wow, defense, someone makes a mistake a we crucify them. You're right, their scoring ability is their strength; when you play the schedule they do it would be for anyone. Once they meet a team with a good offense and any sort of defense at all they will be done, as they have been in the past.

elliot70, your cluster of private schools outside the top 5 is nice

Crucify???? hardly......but I'll put you down on the list that doesn't think Little Falls will amount to anything this year...have you seen them play this year????

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:25 pm

I have not seen them play. But how does not thinking they should be #1 mean I don't think they should amount to anything? I am simply questioning the logic of people out there. SOS matters. Period. End of Story. And that is being ignored here.

The Gophers won 8-6 last night. You don't need defense to play great every night, if you can put up 11 it's okay to let in 10. I'm simply saying they have yet to prove that they can a. put up 11 against good competition or b. not let in 10 against good competition.
I think it's funny that myFOXhockey has Edina #1 but Little Falls #1 as well in Class A.

TheBlizzard · Post by **TheBlizzard** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 4:46 am

I think its funny when people bitch because their favorite team doesn't get any consideration when they have a good record. Strength of schedule is everything; sure you are not going to know every team that is going to be good ahead of time because their are always a few teams that surprise everyone. But there are always those teams that have great coaching and their programs are always solid.

I believe the tougher the schedule is during the regular season (no matter what record you end up having) will just make you stronger during the post season. You watch; a lo these teams with 1 or 2 loses will get bumped out right away by teams that have 5-6 loses.

freakforhockey · Post by **freakforhockey** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:12 am

TheBlizzard wrote:I think its funny when people bitch because their favorite team doesn't get any consideration when they have a good record. Strength of schedule is everything; sure you are not going to know every team that is going to be good ahead of time because their are always a few teams that surprise everyone. But there are always those teams that have great coaching and their programs are always solid.

I believe the tougher the schedule is during the regular season (no matter what record you end up having) will just make you stronger during the post season. You watch; a lo these teams with 1 or 2 loses will get bumped out right away by teams that have 5-6 loses.

I for one would want my team ranked as low as possible to give the boys something to work for. Highly ranked teams tend to have inflated egos, which affects their play on the ice.