Ref's

Educator29 · Post by **Educator29** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 12:32 pm

I don't understand? my son had a game last night, we drove 23 miles to the arena to find NO Officials. We asked the 2 ref's from the other arena to stay if they could. They said they had to "Clear" it with there District lead official (?) they lead official said NO. said they did not have the experience: one was a level 3 the other a level 2. One said he played for St Johns Univ, the other I have seen around the rinks coaching etc for over 20 years. These guys could have handled it. why do they make some things so difficult? I wouldn't have even asked these guys if they looked like they couldn't handle it. They skated better then most the "Qualified" ref's we see anyway. Now an hour of ice was wasted, 46 Miles round trip, We have to Make up the game. chances are the district ref's will take on extra fee's to reschedule. Guys - It doesnot need to be that Hard..

netminder.net · Post by **netminder.net** » Wed Jan 07, 2009 1:42 pm

What level was the game?
A level three seems able to take on just about anything required in youth hockey( in a 2 referee system, Bantams require both to be level 2).
Also, ones ability to skate does not make them able to "handle" any level of officiating. Some of the officials do not go beyond level 2 because in some cases the increase in $$, does not makeup for the increase in BS.
I have spoken with many officials who are very content to do Squirt B and C levels, because the hassle of working with coaches and parents at the higher level isn't worth an extra few dollars per game.
You ask why it has to be so hard? What happens if a underqaulified official makes a mistake that determined the outcome of the game? If this happens against your team, are you going to be OK with it because you thought he can skate well?
You can/should be angry with the assigned officials for missing thier assignment, but it doesn't seem right to be upset with the lead official because he was simply avoiding a potentially horrible situation.

jollyroger · Post by **jollyroger** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:53 am

A level 3 and a level 2 ref could handle any game in youth hockey, especially in an emergency, unless this was a high school game. More than likely the two refs weren't really interested and conveyed that to the supervisor.
And regardless of what level the refs are, yes, they might not want to officiate a game based on the 'increase in BS'. That's what causes a shortage of good refs at all levels, and that's why you'll run into some horrible officials who don't have the 'emotional' makeup to handle the job. It seems to be getting worse. Certain districts are worse than others since the district handle recruitment, hiring, and training.

Mr. Bo Dangles · Post by **Mr. Bo Dangles** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:25 pm

If you believe reffing is getting worse, than so are coaches and parents. Reffing is a job and at very few jobs do you get yelled at for 60 to 90 minutes by multiple people.
It is a games played by young kids, why is it so hard for people to realize that?

GreekChurch · Post by **GreekChurch** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:35 am

Mr. Bo Dangles wrote:If you believe reffing is getting worse, than so are coaches and parents. Reffing is a job and at very few jobs do you get yelled at for 60 to 90 minutes by multiple people.
It is a games played by young kids, why is it so hard for people to realize that?

I don't think you can make the leap that coaches,and parents are getting worse just because the refs might be. The game is the same game it was 20 years ago for the refs, but for the parents , players , and coaches there is way more time, and money put into this great game. Their investment in the game is way more consuming because of it. Therefore, you will see more passionate or just plain crazy parents , and coaches. Youth hockey is a big part of daily life for alot of famlies. When you have 2- 3 kids playing hockey you're in arena as much as you are home. I will say the behavior of some fans , and coaches is inexcusible. On the other hand you have a lot of kids, coaches and parents going home thinking they got shafted, and the refs going home thinking they were just doing their JOB

nahc · Post by **nahc** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:31 am

Yep, game played by kids who work their tails off for most of the year attempting to get better. Expectations of officiating are very high. The attitude by refs should NOT be "these are only squirts, pee wees, U10's, U12's, etc.. Refs need to ref games as if the game involved the University of Minnesota skaters, ie be at the top of your game. That is what parents expect of their kids and we should expect no less from the refs. Refs need to have a bit tougher skin. I've coached a lot of kids in differant sports and you have a LOT of parental "input" from the sidelines. Its part of the game for the vast majority of comments......I want vocal, passionate fans at games. If you are a ref and blow a call, expect some feedback!!!! You earned it..........

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:55 am

Mr. Bo Dangles wrote:If you believe reffing is getting worse, than so are coaches and parents. Reffing is a job and at very few jobs do you get yelled at for 60 to 90 minutes by multiple people.
It is a games played by young kids, why is it so hard for people to realize that?

Oh, spare me!!! Refs are getting paid, they're not volunteers, nobody is forcing this job upon them. I agree that parents should exhibit good sportsmanship from the stands, but there is nothing wrong with voicing your displeasure with a horrible call or non-call in a "clean manner" (i.e. no cussing or constant badgering).

Bensonmum · Post by **Bensonmum** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:09 am

Exactly right (and I am a ref by the way, albeit very part time).
Referees are the only 'professionals' in the arena at a youth hockey game. What I've seen lately from some of them is not professional behavior. Certain districts are worse than others--the culture of the district leadership affects the behavior of the officials. Some are very serious about it, others, from what I've seen, are not.

Mr. Bo Dangles · Post by **Mr. Bo Dangles** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:40 am

muckandgrind wrote:
Mr. Bo Dangles wrote:If you believe reffing is getting worse, than so are coaches and parents. Reffing is a job and at very few jobs do you get yelled at for 60 to 90 minutes by multiple people.
It is a games played by young kids, why is it so hard for people to realize that?
Oh, spare me!!! Refs are getting paid, they're not volunteers, nobody is forcing this job upon them. I agree that parents should exhibit good sportsmanship from the stands, but there is nothing wrong with voicing your displeasure with a horrible call or non-call in a "clean manner" (i.e. no cussing or constant badgering).

Come to one of my games, yell at me all you want. I just expect you to come and let me know where you work so I can be their Monday morning to yell at you.

Hattrick81 · Post by **Hattrick81** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:49 am

Not a logical response. Others know that in their chosen profession there will not be hundreds of parents/coaches yelling at them throughout the day. You said that at very few jobs do you get yelled at for 60 or 90 minutes. Well, then choose one of the many where it doesn't happen.

You know when you get into reffing that there will be critics, and in a public forum, people will voice their displeasure. If you didn't know this before you got into it then it's your fault for not ever attending a hockey game or researching it.

observer · Post by **observer** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:49 am

What I've seen that is bugging me is an increasingly adversarial relationship between coaches and refs. We have entrusted our kids to both the coaches and refs and both need to get a grip on responsible behavior. These are teaching moments for both the coaches and refs and some are blowing it. As a parent we want our players to work hard and show respect for the game, opposing players, coaches and refs. We pay the money. The coaches are volunteers for the most part but they need to play the role of teacher and role model. A coach waves his arms and yells at the refs and the kids think that type of behavior is OK. It's not. If the ref does a poor job of explaining his expectations to the players and the coaches before the game, as a nurturing, paid, teacher, then they're not doing their best either. Parents are being poor role models if they're yelling anything but encouragement to anyone but that's a different discussion.

This is for the kids. We want them to grow and be strong players. The best behaved players often end up being the best players. Coaches and refs, we really need your help here. Refs, take a minute before the game, go to the bench and talk to the coaches and all the players about your expectations and how you call things. Use that teaching moment so the players are better behaved. Coaches, after the ref has laid down his expectations repeat to your players what you just heard so there are no surprises. Refs need to be consistent with what they described as their expectations. Coaches need to enforce the refs expectations to your players and sit them if they don't follow your instructions regarding appropriate hockey behavior as described by the refs.

As a parent, to watch refs, and/or coaches, behave poorly and set poor examples for our children is troubling. We pay the money and have entrusted both of you to teach our children. It's a big responsibility and it's growing bigger and more difficult. We expect more out of both of you. Stop being adversaries and work together to be better teachers.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:53 am

Mr. Bo Dangles wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:
Mr. Bo Dangles wrote:If you believe reffing is getting worse, than so are coaches and parents. Reffing is a job and at very few jobs do you get yelled at for 60 to 90 minutes by multiple people.
It is a games played by young kids, why is it so hard for people to realize that?
Oh, spare me!!! Refs are getting paid, they're not volunteers, nobody is forcing this job upon them. I agree that parents should exhibit good sportsmanship from the stands, but there is nothing wrong with voicing your displeasure with a horrible call or non-call in a "clean manner" (i.e. no cussing or constant badgering).
Come to one of my games, yell at me all you want. I just expect you to come and let me know where you work so I can be their Monday morning to yell at you.

If I don't do a good job at work, my boss will yell at me. Since the parents are in fact PAYING the refs, we are your de facto "bosses" and have every right to voice our displeasure as long as we don't go overboard with it and keep it within the realm of decency.

Garth · Post by **Garth** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:35 pm

muckandgrind wrote:
Mr. Bo Dangles wrote:
muckandgrind wrote: Oh, spare me!!! Refs are getting paid, they're not volunteers, nobody is forcing this job upon them. I agree that parents should exhibit good sportsmanship from the stands, but there is nothing wrong with voicing your displeasure with a horrible call or non-call in a "clean manner" (i.e. no cussing or constant badgering).
Come to one of my games, yell at me all you want. I just expect you to come and let me know where you work so I can be their Monday morning to yell at you.
If I don't do a good job at work, my boss will yell at me. Since the parents are in fact PAYING the refs, we are your de facto "bosses" and have every right to voice our displeasure as long as we don't go overboard with it and keep it within the realm of decency.

The only good its going to do YOU (not the team) is getting the anger off your chest.

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:53 pm

Garth wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:
Mr. Bo Dangles wrote: Come to one of my games, yell at me all you want. I just expect you to come and let me know where you work so I can be their Monday morning to yell at you.
If I don't do a good job at work, my boss will yell at me. Since the parents are in fact PAYING the refs, we are your de facto "bosses" and have every right to voice our displeasure as long as we don't go overboard with it and keep it within the realm of decency.
The only good its going to do YOU (not the team) is getting the anger off your chest.

Not necessarily. I recall a recent game where the net was lodged loose and had the parents not yelled at the official, he never would have looked and blew his whistle.

Listen, chalk it up to "over-zealous" hockey parents all you like, but if a ref is doing a bad job (i.e. missing obvious offsides or flagrant penalties) the parents and coaches have every right to say something, they don't have every right to swear or berate the officials, though.

I've seen many games where the refs refuse to make obvious calls early and pretty soon things spiral out of control on the ice and kids get hurt. Naturally, parents will get upset about that and say something about it.

Again, you can voice your displease without being obnoxious.

nahc · Post by **nahc** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:54 pm

MuckandGrind is right on with his/her comments. I would say that as a ref, if you are being provided input the entire time you are on the ice by fans and coaches, you need to get out of reffing........the BEST games are when the ref's are hardly noticed on the ice.......they do their jobs well and fans/coaches respond. There are some very good refs at all levels and districts..........its the less steller officials who feel the wrath of folks.........and again, they have earned it!!!!

jBlaze3000 · Post by **jBlaze3000** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:36 pm

muckandgrind wrote:Listen, chalk it up to "over-zealous" hockey parents all you like, but if a ref is doing a bad job (i.e. missing obvious offsides or flagrant penalties) the parents and coaches have every right to say something, they don't have every right to swear or berate the officials, though.

Coaches have a right to say something because they are a representative of the team but parents do not. Refs don't need 50 people screaming at them especially since most parents are not objective and most have never picked up a hockey rule book.

My personal favorite is when there is a delay in the game because the ref wants to clarify something or change a call. It never fails that within 10 seconds parents will start screaming at them to drop the puck and the longer they wait the worse it gets. Let's chastise the guy because he wants to make sure he does his job right.

theref · Post by **theref** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:59 pm

muckandgrind wrote:
Mr. Bo Dangles wrote:
muckandgrind wrote: Oh, spare me!!! Refs are getting paid, they're not volunteers, nobody is forcing this job upon them. I agree that parents should exhibit good sportsmanship from the stands, but there is nothing wrong with voicing your displeasure with a horrible call or non-call in a "clean manner" (i.e. no cussing or constant badgering).
Come to one of my games, yell at me all you want. I just expect you to come and let me know where you work so I can be their Monday morning to yell at you.
If I don't do a good job at work, my boss will yell at me. Since the parents are in fact PAYING the refs, we are your de facto "bosses" and have every right to voice our displeasure as long as we don't go overboard with it and keep it within the realm of decency.

If you indeed think that because parents pay the fees which pay the referees and that makes you our boss, then you are about as dumb as they come. Also, for all of you that think you have the right to argue or criticize officials or wonder why coaches get bench minors, go to the USA Hockey website and read up about the zero tolerance policy they have. I don't say this to all, just to the people that think they have a right to complain to officials. Many times I have very intelligent fans, coaches, and players ask me questions after games that I have no problems answering. Just remember, your opinion from the stands means nothing to us and to use this board to further voice your complaints makes you look like an even bigger horses behind.

Hattrick81 · Post by **Hattrick81** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:51 pm

2 things:

1) If there is a zero tolerance policy, then enforce it. If you are not going to enforce it, then don't bitch

2) Fans voicing their opinions might not mean anything to YOU, but they obviously do mean something to some officials. Again, if they didn't, then other ref's wouldn't be on this board bitching. And if you didn't care about our opinion, why are you on here trying to set us straight?

Educator29 · Post by **Educator29** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:20 am

Wow - did this post go off in the wrong direction. I started it wondering Why District 2 lead official would not allow a level 2 and level 3 ref. who ref'd the game before Ref my son's game. Both with Many years of coaching behind them plus playing careers, etc The Districts really make it so much more difficult then it needs to be. These 2 guys wanted to do the game, However knew the powers to be would say NO. Its a "Power Thing" Thanks for all the reply's though. This was not meant as a bash the ref post. D-2 ref's do a good job. (most of them)

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:29 am

theref wrote:
muckandgrind wrote:
Mr. Bo Dangles wrote: Come to one of my games, yell at me all you want. I just expect you to come and let me know where you work so I can be their Monday morning to yell at you.
If I don't do a good job at work, my boss will yell at me. Since the parents are in fact PAYING the refs, we are your de facto "bosses" and have every right to voice our displeasure as long as we don't go overboard with it and keep it within the realm of decency.
If you indeed think that because parents pay the fees which pay the referees and that makes you our boss, then you are about as dumb as they come. Also, for all of you that think you have the right to argue or criticize officials or wonder why coaches get bench minors, go to the USA Hockey website and read up about the zero tolerance policy they have. I don't say this to all, just to the people that think they have a right to complain to officials. Many times I have very intelligent fans, coaches, and players ask me questions after games that I have no problems answering. Just remember, your opinion from the stands means nothing to us and to use this board to further voice your complaints makes you look like an even bigger horses behind.

Yeah, and we ALL know how well the concept of ZERO TOLERANCE has been handled (and abused) in other walks of life.

It's obvious I was stretching my analogy, but it IS an analogy, nonetheless.

Listen, as I have state NUMEROUS times, parents or fans do not have the right to act boorish from the stands, but they don't have to keep their mouths shut, either. If I see kids getting hurt on the ice because the officials refuse to take control of the game, I'm sorry, but I will say something. Don't tell me this doesn't happen because I've been around the game for over 40 years and see it happen numerous times. 99% of refs do a great job, but there are a few lousy ones out there and, since they are paid professionals, I will let them know if they are doing a lousy job from the bench or the stands (I have coached for years also). I won't badger them with incessant harrassment, but I will occassionally speak up. Over the past 5 years, I may have said something 2 or 3 times from the stands, so as you can see, it's not something I would do on a constant basis.

You say that our opinion from the stands means nothing, then how about the example I used in my previous post. Our goaltender's net was off it's moorings, the puck was in our zone, but the ref wasn't paying attention and wouldn't blow the whistle and I and another dad got his attention. This happened just the other night. Don't say the refs don't pay attention to the fans when they do...they are human, they have ears, and they can hear.

woodley · Post by **woodley** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:04 pm

Just one more voice. . . . I do ref and coach. I know that in my reffing job, if I make a controversial call, there will be unhappy fans. My job is not to make happy fans, it is to enforce the rules. I absolutely agree that sometimes refs have lost control of games. However, the fans (or coaches) screaming at them will not help them gain control. If this happens, trust your coach to speak calmly and rationally to the ref. This does have impact to those of us in the stripes. However, as soon as a coach starts waving his arms and yelling, all I hear is "blah. . . blah. . . blah. . ." Although the coach does not have the right to argue a call, they do have a right to ask for an explanation. Sometimes everyone involved needs a reminder that this game is about the kids (as opposed to the parents and coaches) and that their safety is paramount. As an example, if a kid is down and not getting up, I blow the whistle regardless of possession, not quite the letter of the rule, but I'm not risking further injury to a child.

As to the prior example about how fans can influence refs, they are absolutely correct. There are times I don't see a post off, but if I hear the goalie or fan yelling "Post off, Post off" I do look! Another example is when a team is skating too many players. A specific yell such as "six skaters blue" causes me (and most of my peers) to do a quick check. As these are not things we expect, we often are not looking for them. However, when the yell is "wake up you *&^%&& ref, there were six blue skaters," it again translates into "blah. . . blah. . . blah. . . " and I shut it out. There is a respectful, appropriate way to communicate to a ref, and I guarantee that if you do so, you will be heard!!!

Please remember, the vast majority of us out there are doing this for the love of the game, not a power trip. Don't paint us with the same broad brush!!

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 7:59 am

Educator, when you make a topic having anything to do with officials this is where it ends up.

If you want the best answer to the original question, find out who the scheduling person is or the decision maker of that game and ask. I'm confident there will be a legitimate reason, at least in their mind.

Let's go over some of the points made in this thread, probably for the 1 millionth time.

1- Bad call feedback from the crowd or coaches. If done in a reasonable manner, no problem. What happens on a regular basis, is we have uneducated people complaining about something they really understand. It's either personal about their child or team.

2- Officials get paid - Yes they do. The line of thinking about I get paid at my job, so I can bitch at a 14 year old out there for their first game if a bit flawed. Here is an example of an official I know. Last week they drove 52 miles to a game. They left at 10:30am, and returned home by 2:30pm. That official earned $44.00, and burned about $15.00 in gas. Now if we put the pencil to that, would you be excited about getting into officiating?

3- Choices - There are many coaches, officials, arena managers, zamboni drivers, and concession stand workers that "get paid" for being there. Most of these people are adults, and when critisizm comes there way it's done in a reasonable fashion. When we get to the coaching and reffing side of things, parents feel they have the "right" to critique because they "paid" for their childs hockey experience. Sit back and analyze that for just a second. I've been on all the different sides of this equation, and can say that time is the best education around, if you let it be.

This is a never ending discussion for the most part. One thing that will change your view of things is when your child is the one on the ice wearing the stripes. You can say anything you want about training, call making, professionalism and so on, but if the people complaining the loudest wanted to make a difference they would stop bitching and start helping in one form or another.

For those of you that feel people in the arena have the "right" to complain, you are the same people wondering why the officials doing your kids games aren't very good? The main reason is you.. Over 50% of first year officials decide not to continue due to the abuse they take on ice. I witnessed a 10U coach this weekend threaten to "kick someone's ass" if they didn't get the game under control. This happens more than you might think, and is a root cause of many problems.

One last rhetorical question, who do you suppose is most educated on the rules of hockey? Answer - The people doing the least complaining and bitching.

whockeyguy · Post by **whockeyguy** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 5:24 pm

Dear muck and grind,I have read your posts, the one thing that is constant is that in YOUR opinion you think you always have the right, well as an old pro wrestler use to say ," IT JUST DOESNT MATTER". the refs are out there doing the best of what they see,
I challenge you to to take the test they do and see how many you get right, I will bet it is not even 60 % and with that I will side on the officials nearly all the time,
Yes they will make mistakes at times. but act like you know everything out there is absurbed
there is an old saying out there "if you dont like , then change it" . dear muck and grind . what solution would you bring to the table, do you care to get out there,

muckandgrind · Post by **muckandgrind** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:36 pm

whockeyguy wrote:Dear muck and grind,I have read your posts, the one thing that is constant is that in YOUR opinion you think you always have the right, well as an old pro wrestler use to say ," IT JUST DOESNT MATTER". the refs are out there doing the best of what they see,
I challenge you to to take the test they do and see how many you get right, I will bet it is not even 60 % and with that I will side on the officials nearly all the time,
Yes they will make mistakes at times. but act like you know everything out there is absurbed
there is an old saying out there "if you dont like , then change it" . dear muck and grind . what solution would you bring to the table, do you care to get out there,

Hey, I don't dispute that the vast majority of refs do a fantastic job. All I'm saying is that they aren't infallible, and there is nothing wrong with calling out a bad ref. I have been around the game for over 40 years as a player, coach and parent. I have seen just about everything you can imagine, and yes, I have seen some absolutely horrible officiating...and when I see it, I'll say something. I'll never berate or badger a ref from the stands, nor will I use foul language. But I've never been afraid to talk to a ref during or after a game (as a coach and a parent), some refs handle that well, some don't.

inthestands · Post by **inthestands** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:02 am

All I'm saying is that they aren't infallible, and there is nothing wrong with calling out a bad ref.

And when the inexperienced new coach/fan/parent sees you do this, many times they will feel it's OK for them to do the same.

When you "call out" a young official, you are part of the movement keeping that group of first year officials at a less than 50% return rate for their 2nd season.

But as you've mentioned, it's your right and you are more than welcome to use it. On the flip side, don't complain when your games have poor officiating. That is due to people abusing the younger officials, and not having the ability to build those younger kids into experienced refs to take the place of the elderly, out of shape fellows that can't bend down to pick up the puck.

BTW, there is a big difference between "calling out" an official and talking wtih them during a game. It's plain to see which method you choose.