Top Scorers

cctndr30 · Post by **cctndr30** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:30 pm

chiefofmedicine wrote:and have you yourself see any of these kids play? and hanowski would be good anywhere. you just sound extremely biased and ignorant.

I have seen 7 of the 10 in person and not just this year. Some I have coached against. Hanowski is fabulous and if you were able to diagnose beyond the first symptom you would have seen that my comments were not a judgement on the value or skill of the players, just how we measure and value them. Jack Welch would never settle for the simple total points measure we use.

chiefofmedicine · Post by **chiefofmedicine** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 9:38 pm

cctndr30 wrote:
chiefofmedicine wrote:and have you yourself see any of these kids play? and hanowski would be good anywhere. you just sound extremely biased and ignorant.
I have seen 7 of the 10 in person and not just this year. Some I have coached against. Hanowski is fabulous and if you were able to diagnose beyond the first symptom you would have seen that my comments were not a judgement on the value or skill of the players, just how we measure and value them. Jack Welch would never settle for the simple total points measure we use.

alright then i just misunderstood you

The Exiled One · Post by **The Exiled One** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:17 am

cctndr30 wrote:
chiefofmedicine wrote:and have you yourself see any of these kids play? and hanowski would be good anywhere. you just sound extremely biased and ignorant.
I have seen 7 of the 10 in person and not just this year. Some I have coached against. Hanowski is fabulous and if you were able to diagnose beyond the first symptom you would have seen that my comments were not a judgement on the value or skill of the players, just how we measure and value them. Jack Welch would never settle for the simple total points measure we use.

Still working on the formula, but I'm attempting to figure out a better way to guage stats...

Click here for preliminary results.

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:58 pm

The Exiled One wrote:Still working on the formula, but I'm attempting to figure out a better way to guage stats...

Click here for preliminary results.

I know you get off on trying to use numbers (rather than vision) in judging player ability but you have topped yourself this time. A formula?

The Exiled One · Post by **The Exiled One** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:30 pm

Gopher Blog wrote:
The Exiled One wrote:Still working on the formula, but I'm attempting to figure out a better way to guage stats...

Click here for preliminary results.
I know you get off on trying to use numbers (rather than vision) in judging player ability but you have topped yourself this time. A formula?

Hey, it's got it's problems, but you've got to admit it looks a lot closer to truth than does the leaderboard!

Is the NHL level the only level where we can judge players by their stats?

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:52 pm

The Exiled One wrote:Hey, it's got it's problems, but you've got to admit it looks a lot closer to truth than does the leaderboard!

Is the NHL level the only level where we can judge players by their stats?

You know as well as I do there are way more factors involved in judging ability at that HS age. Not to mention, accounting for ice time and/or schedule strength is a very subjective factor in its own right since we can't accurately measure those on this level.

You should spend less time on Excel spreadsheets and more time at the rink.

The Exiled One · Post by **The Exiled One** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:02 pm

Gopher Blog wrote:
The Exiled One wrote:Hey, it's got it's problems, but you've got to admit it looks a lot closer to truth than does the leaderboard!

Is the NHL level the only level where we can judge players by their stats?
You know as well as I do there are way more factors involved in judging ability at that HS age. Not to mention, accounting for ice time and/or schedule strength is a very subjective factor in its own right since we can't accurately measure those on this level.

You should spend less time on Excel spreadsheets and more time at the rink.

Completely agree. Can you tell that to my wife?

Gopher Blog · Post by **Gopher Blog** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:15 pm

The Exiled One wrote:Completely agree. Can you tell that to my wife?

Something tells me I wouldn't have much pull with her but I could always try to help out.

Papa Bergundy · Post by **Papa Bergundy** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:27 am

cctndr30 wrote:
chiefofmedicine wrote:and have you yourself see any of these kids play? and hanowski would be good anywhere. you just sound extremely biased and ignorant.
I have seen 7 of the 10 in person and not just this year. Some I have coached against. Hanowski is fabulous and if you were able to diagnose beyond the first symptom you would have seen that my comments were not a judgement on the value or skill of the players, just how we measure and value them. Jack Welch would never settle for the simple total points measure we use.

And to add to that, obviously Hanowski is the outlier on this list. But put Anders Lee, Tyler Pitlick or Danny Mattson on St Francis or wherever else I'm sure they would get 10 pts. a game. There good hockey players, but his point is valid, the numbers don't credit the best players.

chiefofmedicine · Post by **chiefofmedicine** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:08 am

i'd agree with papa burgandy.... however, how do you think benik would be doing on edina? he is obviously talented how much i have no idea never seen him play. but would being surrounded with better players help him, or would the better competition just shut him down?

hockeyboys · Post by **hockeyboys** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 7:51 am

i have now seen about 8 of the top scoreres. Benik is very good. I think his twin the goalie may even be better - and he gets no press at all. One of the best, if not the best tender i have seen this year.

if you were to put everson, lee, and a score of the other top players on the St. Francis team in place of Benik - would they score as many points? Answer to me is no - but those other players around them would score more. Great players make the other 4 on the ice better. Benek doesn't do that - he is a one man show. What would be more interesting to me is putting Bennek on the Edina squad - and see where he lands and how he plays on a line with Lee and Everson - does he make that group even better with his skills? or does he get lost playing with great talent?

chiefofmedicine · Post by **chiefofmedicine** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:54 pm

hockeyboys wrote:i have now seen about 8 of the top scoreres. Benik is very good. I think his twin the goalie may even be better - and he gets no press at all. One of the best, if not the best tender i have seen this year.

if you were to put everson, lee, and a score of the other top players on the St. Francis team in place of Benik - would they score as many points? Answer to me is no - but those other players around them would score more. Great players make the other 4 on the ice better. Benek doesn't do that - he is a one man show. What would be more interesting to me is putting Bennek on the Edina squad - and see where he lands and how he plays on a line with Lee and Everson - does he make that group even better with his skills? or does he get lost playing with great talent?

thats what i am saying. and yeah benik is good but i'd take somone who makes everyone around them better anyday. He had three points against SLP but his team still lost 7-4. is saint louis park any good?

komada77 · Post by **komada77** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:16 am

My question is who will be the top scorer in the state who plays for a solid team (top 15-20)? There are kids out there who score a ton of points and are solid players but the reason they rack up huge amounts of points is because they have to do it all for their team. The teams with kids like this will never go far because unless u put sydney crosby on a HS team, one good player cannot bring a team to the state tourney.

cctndr30 · Post by **cctndr30** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 1:20 pm

hockeyboys wrote:i have now seen about 8 of the top scoreres. Benik is very good. I think his twin the goalie may even be better - and he gets no press at all. One of the best, if not the best tender i have seen this year.

if you were to put everson, lee, and a score of the other top players on the St. Francis team in place of Benik - would they score as many points? Answer to me is no - but those other players around them would score more. Great players make the other 4 on the ice better. Benek doesn't do that - he is a one man show. What would be more interesting to me is putting Bennek on the Edina squad - and see where he lands and how he plays on a line with Lee and Everson - does he make that group even better with his skills? or does he get lost playing with great talent?

He would be on the second line at best on a team this good. That is exactly why we shouldn't measure points only. By being on the second line (maybe third, Giles does not like loners), he would have about 1/3 less ice time which would automatically cut his scoring, and, he'd very likely be on the second power play so kiss those points good bye.
Finally, facing people who can actually keep up would completely deminish him. I don't think he'd score very many one on one's against Leddy or Kyle Prochno. And by the way, not be able to be matched up against a 3rd line in the North that wouldn't play JV in the Lake or Classic Lake. Another reason why we shouldn't measure points without conditions. Gaborik was told by the Wild he was critical because of how much he scored full strength per minute played. Not because of power play or anything else. He was ranked by his abilities 5 on 5. All I'm saying is that a 3rd line center can look real good in the scoring line if all he does is score on the power play or, for that matter play weak competition and even more, against a 3rd line in match ups against poor competition.

The Exiled One · Post by **The Exiled One** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 3:55 pm

komada77 wrote:My question is who will be the top scorer in the state who plays for a solid team (top 15-20)?

Burnsville HS
Edina HS (Lee - 28, Everson - 26, Gaarder - 24)
Wayzata HS
Champlin Park HS
Lakeville North HS
Chaska HS (Erickson - 18 )
Minnetonka HS (Gardiner - 20)
Moorhead HS
Roseau HS
Eden Prairie HS
Park Cottage Grove HS
Rosemount HS
Elk River HS
Grand Rapids HS
North Metro HS
Anoka HS
Bloomington Jefferson HS (Siiro - 20)
Duluth East HS (Tardy - 19)
White Bear Lake HS
Hastings HS

There are your top 20 teams, in order, by schedule strength.

komada77 · Post by **komada77** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 6:45 pm

The Exiled One wrote:
komada77 wrote:My question is who will be the top scorer in the state who plays for a solid team (top 15-20)?
Burnsville HS
Edina HS (Lee - 28, Everson - 26, Gaarder - 24)
Wayzata HS
Champlin Park HS
Lakeville North HS
Chaska HS (Erickson - 18 )
Minnetonka HS (Gardiner - 20)
Moorhead HS
Roseau HS
Eden Prairie HS
Park Cottage Grove HS
Rosemount HS
Elk River HS
Grand Rapids HS
North Metro HS
Anoka HS
Bloomington Jefferson HS (Siiro - 20)
Duluth East HS (Tardy - 19)
White Bear Lake HS
Hastings HS

There are your top 20 teams, in order, by schedule strength.

Then I would have to say it's pretty tough to argue that Anders Lee is not the best forward in the state.

The Exiled One · Post by **The Exiled One** » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:50 pm

komada77 wrote:
The Exiled One wrote:
komada77 wrote:My question is who will be the top scorer in the state who plays for a solid team (top 15-20)?
Burnsville HS
Edina HS (Lee - 28, Everson - 26, Gaarder - 24)
Wayzata HS
Champlin Park HS
Lakeville North HS
Chaska HS (Erickson - 18 )
Minnetonka HS (Gardiner - 20)
Moorhead HS
Roseau HS
Eden Prairie HS
Park Cottage Grove HS
Rosemount HS
Elk River HS
Grand Rapids HS
North Metro HS
Anoka HS
Bloomington Jefferson HS (Siiro - 20)
Duluth East HS (Tardy - 19)
White Bear Lake HS
Hastings HS

There are your top 20 teams, in order, by schedule strength.
Then I would have to say it's pretty tough to argue that Anders Lee is not the best forward in the state.

He just might be, but Mattson has more points, and AHA is no slouch despite having a slightly softer schedule. I'm guessing they didn't know it would be soft when they set it up either.

Also, Hanowski didn't get to decide where his parents were going to live. He's doing the best he can, albeit against softer competition.

It's actually pretty easy to argue that Lee is not the best (uninjured) forward in the state, though he very well might be.

komada77 · Post by **komada77** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:16 am

The Exiled One wrote:
komada77 wrote:
The Exiled One wrote: Burnsville HS
Edina HS (Lee - 28, Everson - 26, Gaarder - 24)
Wayzata HS
Champlin Park HS
Lakeville North HS
Chaska HS (Erickson - 18 )
Minnetonka HS (Gardiner - 20)
Moorhead HS
Roseau HS
Eden Prairie HS
Park Cottage Grove HS
Rosemount HS
Elk River HS
Grand Rapids HS
North Metro HS
Anoka HS
Bloomington Jefferson HS (Siiro - 20)
Duluth East HS (Tardy - 19)
White Bear Lake HS
Hastings HS

There are your top 20 teams, in order, by schedule strength.
Then I would have to say it's pretty tough to argue that Anders Lee is not the best forward in the state.
He just might be, but Mattson has more points, and AHA is no slouch despite having a slightly softer schedule. I'm guessing they didn't know it would be soft when they set it up either.

Also, Hanowski didn't get to decide where his parents were going to live. He's doing the best he can, albeit against softer competition.

It's actually pretty easy to argue that Lee is not the best (uninjured) forward in the state, though he very well might be.

Yeah I guess you could make an argument, but after watching all 3 mentioned above play (Hanowski last year at state though), I have to say Lee is the best, with Hano being a very close second and then Mattson an even closer third.

chiefofmedicine · Post by **chiefofmedicine** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:16 pm

I'd have to agree with an Edina forward being the best... but its not Lee. To me its Gaarder he works so damn hard and i think that will benefit him better in the long run.

Big Hit · Post by **Big Hit** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:09 pm

Dan DeLisle from totino grace is having a great year 10 games 27 points 12G 15A He will forsure be one of the top scorers at the end of the year!

cctndr30 · Post by **cctndr30** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:09 pm

The Exiled One wrote:
komada77 wrote:
The Exiled One wrote: Burnsville HS
Edina HS (Lee - 28, Everson - 26, Gaarder - 24)
Wayzata HS
Champlin Park HS
Lakeville North HS
Chaska HS (Erickson - 18 )
Minnetonka HS (Gardiner - 20)
Moorhead HS
Roseau HS
Eden Prairie HS
Park Cottage Grove HS
Rosemount HS
Elk River HS
Grand Rapids HS
North Metro HS
Anoka HS
Bloomington Jefferson HS (Siiro - 20)
Duluth East HS (Tardy - 19)
White Bear Lake HS
Hastings HS

There are your top 20 teams, in order, by schedule strength.
Then I would have to say it's pretty tough to argue that Anders Lee is not the best forward in the state.
He just might be, but Mattson has more points, and AHA is no slouch despite having a slightly softer schedule. I'm guessing they didn't know it would be soft when they set it up either.

Also, Hanowski didn't get to decide where his parents were going to live. He's doing the best he can, albeit against softer competition.

It's actually pretty easy to argue that Lee is not the best (uninjured) forward in the state, though he very well might be.

While I like your front end logic. Again your first back up thought is Mattson has more points. And again, it is the wrong measurement. Is he very good, yes, are there 5-10 as good, yes! It does zero good to pick a best in the state and frankly is why I don't like the Mr. Hockey award. Ten kids earned it last year and it went to a guy who played a weak schedule but looked good doing it. Let's stick with an all state team and let the rest go. It was like Kevin Gorg the other night when asked who was the best goalie ever to come out of Minnesota, he left off so many names it was embarassing and the worst one left off was Pete LoPresti. If he went back to the early 70's or late 60's, he'd see some amazing numbers but of people he'd never heard of or seen. For instance, who has the most shutouts in a single year since 1965? Was that guy any worse than Shelstad, Goering, Casey? You just can't make those judgements and ever be right, but, you can get close with a top three at each position.

Doglover · Post by **Doglover** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:32 pm

Like the idea of choosing just an All State team versus Mr. Hockey. I think it would eliminate a boatload of problems including selfish play, individual focus versus team focus, and put the spotlight on a team making it to State, not so much one of the players winning Mr. Hockey by racking up points playing first line and first power play. Also tougher to get points playing the more competitive schedules and more difficult to evaluate the quality of a player if he has no one to play with or against.

cctndr30 brings forward some pretty strong points, not all of which are initially obvious.

Heck, they haven't even finished this season and there are people on the board already trying to promote players for the 2010-11 Mr. Hockey!!! Have to admit it's one topic that sure promotes more individual play. Wonder what the coaches think about it?

SB24 · Post by **SB24** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 2:05 pm

1 BLOOM JEFFERSON -SR- Siiro, A.J. 20 pts 10 games 2.0

2 EDINA -SR- Lee, Anders 28 pts 12 games 2.33

3 EDEN PRAIRIE Rau, Kyle 13 pts 9 games 1.33

4 HILL MURRAY -SR- Kohls, Isaac 17 pts 12 games 1.47

5 HOLY ANGELS -SR- Mattson, Danny 24 pts 8 games 3.00

6 CENTENNIAL -SR- Pitlick, Tyler 25 pts 9 games 2.77

7 DULUTH EAST -SR- Tardy, Max 19 pts 10 games 1.90

8 MINNETONKA -JR- Gardiner, Max 20 pts 11 games 1.81

9 HERMANTOWN Krause, Adam 21 pts 11 games 1.90

10 ST THOMAS ACADEMY -JR- Isackson, Christian 19 pts 10 games 1.90

11 WAYZATA Soule, Billy 12 pts 11 games 1.09

12 MAPLE GROVE -SR- Gross, Josh 25 pts 11 games 2.27

13 BRECK -JR- Fulton, Tyson 15 pts 9 games 1.66

14 LITTLE FALLS Hanowski, -SR- Ben 38 pts 9 games 4.22

15 WARROAD Nelson, Brock -JR- 29 pts 12 games 2.41

16 BLAINE Bjugstad, Nick 23 pts 11 games 2.09

17 MOORHEAD Altenbernd, Alex 11 pts 10 games 1.10

18 WOODBURY -JR- Gaede, Max 29 pts 12 games 2.41

19 ROCHESTER LOURDES -SR- Voigt, Tyler 19 pts 8 games 2.37

20 ST CLOUD CATHEDRAL Koopmeiners, Alex 22 pts 12 games 1.83

komada77 · Post by **komada77** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:50 pm

SB24 wrote:
18 WOODBURY -SR- Gross, Josh 25 pts 11 games 2.27

There is no Josh Gross in Woodbury you need to check your roster again

SB24 · Post by **SB24** » Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:06 pm

looks like he is playing for two teams this year