New Kind of Tournament

[goinbardown]

Anyone think it would be cool to have a 64 team bracket tournament to crown our state champ like they do in college basketball.

They would get some ranking staff together and seed all the teams and then hold a state wide tournament and we'd find the state champ regardless of size or region of the school. (I realize the driving part would be hard but lets pretend)

[sinbin006]

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... nt+bracket

-OR-

http://www.ushsho.com/forums/viewtopic. ... nt+bracket

[O-townClown]

Anyone think it would be cool to have a 64 team bracket tournament to crown our state champ like they do in college basketball.

They would get some ranking staff together and seed all the teams and then hold a state wide tournament and we'd find the state champ regardless of size or region of the school. (I realize the driving part would be hard but lets pretend)

Pretty much what you have. Not the "regardless of size" part since Minnesota went to A and AA, but all teams make the playoffs. Most AA regions are 8 or 9 schools, so you come real close to 64.

Nothing new here.

[gitter]

Anyone think it would be cool to have a 64 team bracket tournament to crown our state champ like they do in college basketball.

They would get some ranking staff together and seed all the teams and then hold a state wide tournament and we'd find the state champ regardless of size or region of the school. (I realize the driving part would be hard but lets pretend)

Pretty much what you have. Not the "regardless of size" part since Minnesota went to A and AA, but all teams make the playoffs. Most AA regions are 8 or 9 schools, so you come real close to 64.

Nothing new here.

I don't think he is saying that. I think he's saying (logistics aside) you seed them 1 thru 64. Right now it isn't true - you've got weak sections and loaded sections.

[O-townClown]

Okay Git, I realize that. But it doesn't matter. The same teams probably make the Final Four. It will never happen because virtually everyone doesn't see the point for Dodge County to square off in a first round game against Moorhead or Centennial against Two Harbors.

Once you get past the Top 25-30 teams in the state you have a group that can't keep up with the Top 5. That's not the way it is in college basketball. This proposal would lead to several first round blowouts and you'd be left to ask why they offer up the lambs for slaughter.

[gitter]

The lambs are already up for slaughter. Or maybe you don't recall Moorhead 27, Monticello 0.

So you are saying that last year Minnetonka had no chance to make it to the final 4.

Apparently it doesn't matter that they were in a loaded section.

There is no doubt the 8 teams left in the tournament would be better than the 8 regions of MN that are represented currently.

Again, we all know this isn't going to happen - his point was, what if.

[UpNorthStars]

Now this is just the type of refreshing new ideas we need on this bored








what? It's been discussed before?

[O-townClown]

The lambs are already up for slaughter. Or maybe you don't recall Moorhead 27, Monticello 0.

So you are saying that last year Minnetonka had no chance to make it to the final 4.

Apparently it doesn't matter that they were in a loaded section.

There is no doubt the 8 teams left in the tournament would be better than the 8 regions of MN that are represented currently.

Again, we all know this isn't going to happen - his point was, what if.

Never said anything of the sort about Minnetonka. I don't know how you could infer that from my post. Minnetonka was very good.

Present first round massacres are within regions so there is less travel.

His point was what if.

To which the some responses are
so?,
doesn't matter, or
gee, Wally! That's a great idea!

The goal isn't to get the best 8 teams to state. It is to get the best from each of the 8 sections. If you can get MSHSL to change the goal let me know. Honestly, life is full of constraints. It doesn't make sense to me to pretend they aren't there.

If I weren't married and Cindy Crawford were inebriated and lost her contacts she just might kiss me.

[gitter]

Okay Git, I realize that. But it doesn't matter. The same teams probably make the Final Four.

Never said anything of the sort about Minnetonka. I don't know how you could infer that from my post.

Minnetonka didn't make the state tournament last year, let alone the Final Four.

[MNHockey75]

The lambs are already up for slaughter. Or maybe you don't recall Moorhead 27, Monticello 0.

So you are saying that last year Minnetonka had no chance to make it to the final 4.

Apparently it doesn't matter that they were in a loaded section.

There is no doubt the 8 teams left in the tournament would be better than the 8 regions of MN that are represented currently.

Again, we all know this isn't going to happen - his point was, what if.

They had a chance to get to the final four and they blew a 2-0 lead when it mattered most. The bottom line is that it's never going to happen and section games can sometimes be much more enjoyable than state games. Just look at the Mariucci last year, best high school hockey games I've ever seen.

[BodyShots]

The lambs are already up for slaughter. Or maybe you don't recall Moorhead 27, Monticello 0.

So you are saying that last year Minnetonka had no chance to make it to the final 4.

Apparently it doesn't matter that they were in a loaded section.

There is no doubt the 8 teams left in the tournament would be better than the 8 regions of MN that are represented currently.

Again, we all know this isn't going to happen - his point was, what if.

They had a chance to get to the final four and they blew a 2-0 lead when it mattered most. The bottom line is that it's never going to happen and section games can sometimes be much more enjoyable than state games. Just look at the Mariucci last year, best high school hockey games I've ever seen.

Yeah, and WBL gave HM a real scare in the section finals, which they didn't get at the state tournament.

[gitter]

I don't disagree some of the best games are section finals. All the best section finals are the result of 2 teams that both deserve to be playing at the Tourney. Elk River/Moorhead of '94 was a treat...4OT at the NHC. Cloquet/East '91. Tonka/BSM last year...you can name dozens of them if you've been around long enough.

But as it relates to whoever started this post - I truly believe the state tournament and/or the final four would not feature the same teams if it had a different format. To suggest it would is a bit naive I think.

It doesn't mean the best teams would necessarily get there either. Look at the 2007 AA quarterfinals. The teams still have to win to get there. It would be interesting.

[SiouxRecruit]

Classes are needed at that level. No questions asked....Do I think it would be awsome to watch? yes....

[O-townClown]

Okay Git, I realize that. But it doesn't matter. The same teams probably make the Final Four.

Never said anything of the sort about Minnetonka. I don't know how you could infer that from my post.

Minnetonka didn't make the state tournament last year, let alone the Final Four.

I think the Final Four was Edina, Roseau, Benilde, and Hill-Murray. I said the same teams probably make the Final Four in the scenario mentioned. How will anyone know?

Probably obviously qualifies the statement as less than absolute. Minnetonka didn't make the state tournament because they lost, which is just as likely to happen in the scenario mentioned. Eventually you'll run into good teams.

Minnetonka, Edina, Benilde, Burnsville, Roseau, Hill-Murray...games involving any of these might be a coin flip. Play the tournament again - ANY WAY YOU WANT - and maybe Minnetonka wins it all. Or maybe the don't. This is just speculation.

If you look at the Final Four teams it is very rare that one stands out as not being worthy. Maybe Century a year ago, but they couldn't have been too bad...I think they won the 3rd game.

I don't see this bold new tournament format as being substantially different than what we have. So what if Anoka has to beat Woodbury to make the Quarterfinals instead of a team from their section?

Not happening, so this speculation seems moot.

[defense]

This idea is close to what we currently have, accept for a mostly forgotten point: right now the AA tournement is largely the " Twin Cities" Championship (save for a few brave souls)....and the A tournement more closely resembles a true "state" tournement.
Before seeing a 1 thru 64 ranking I think we need to fix the above problem....such as : having each of 8 regions in the state have their own 8 largest schools competing in AA, and the rest in a.......or else more schools need to go the way of the Rams, or back that way. Yes you, Alexandria, Fergus Falls, Greenway, Willmar.........Bemidji....I'm sorry, having Bemidji in class a is WRONG...ditto the rest of you....Tell Baudette or Park Rapids that Bemidji is NOT a big school, tell Two Harbors that DuLuth East is not a big school ( I believe they too opt up now) ..Alexandria and Bemidji competed in 8 aaaaa (that was 5 a's ) for football this fall.....
Come on MSHSL something is wrong here....it's broken, fix it....

[HShockeywatcher]

As stated by MSHSL officials during the tourney in the past year (maybe two) when talking about the realigning of the sections, they don't "care" about the quality of the teams as much as they do of equal representation from around the state. They would never seed as there are parts of the state that wouldn't be represented. Closest you could get would be what the NCAA does for hockey, but that probably wouldn't happen either.

[21FROMTHEBAY]

ok then lets at least look at a 16 team tournament at the x for A, AA. Just have them on two consecutive weekends. U would draw twice the crowd and let more kids participate at the state tournament

[21FROMTHEBAY]

[quote="defense"]tell Two Harbors that DuLuth East is not a big school ( I believe they too opt up now)
Um i am from silver bay 30 miles north of two harbors, and small town schools just can't compete with schools like duluth east

[defense]

As stated by MSHSL officials during the tourney in the past year (maybe two) when talking about the realigning of the sections, they don't "care" about the quality of the teams as much as they do of equal representation from around the state. They would never seed as there are parts of the state that wouldn't be represented. Closest you could get would be what the NCAA does for hockey, but that probably wouldn't happen either.

If the MSHSL really cared so much about equall representation from around the state, ( I am not doubting the story)...then why does class AA look as it does??????
If every team played where the MSHSL put them, the North Eastern MN including the Iron Range would have NO schools in class AA.
I believe that as it is now, Moorhead, St. Cloud Tech, Branerd, and the coop of CIA/ whoever..... are the only greater Minnesota teams that the MSHSL has put into class AA, the rest opt up......
so 21FROMTHEBAY, if East didn't opt up (as they should and are doing) you would likely have them in your section.

[Goldy Gopher]

As stated by MSHSL officials during the tourney in the past year (maybe two) when talking about the realigning of the sections, they don't "care" about the quality of the teams as much as they do of equal representation from around the state. They would never seed as there are parts of the state that wouldn't be represented. Closest you could get would be what the NCAA does for hockey, but that probably wouldn't happen either.

If the MSHSL really cared so much about equall representation from around the state, ( I am not doubting the story)...then why does class AA look as it does??????
If every team played where the MSHSL put them, the North Eastern MN including the Iron Range would have NO schools in class AA.
I believe that as it is now, Moorhead, St. Cloud Tech, Branerd, and the coop of CIA/ whoever..... are the only greater Minnesota teams that the MSHSL has put into class AA, the rest opt up......
so 21FROMTHEBAY, if East didn't opt up (as they should and are doing) you would likely have them in your section.

Because the MSHSL knows which teams are going to opt up and they adjust their sections accordingly. It's not rocket science.

[Papa Bergundy]

Garbage idea. Agree with that Clown [who's got a good sense of humor, too]. Why make Edina play St. Mary's school of the blind in the first round?

And either way, you're gonna have to beat the best teams in the state to win the tourney. So, like in Tonka's case last year, it's too bad they don't get cute state participant patches on their letter jackets, but if they had a 64 team bracket and Tonka played Benilde in the elite 8 what's the difference? They just got a bit closer, but still blew it in the third period.

So call me a if-its-not-broke-don't-fix-it kinda guy. It's too bad everyone can't make it the X, but as the Clown said, it's too bad we all don't get to kiss Cindy Crawford also.

On my final note, leave the A vs AA debate out of this. Before you know it were gonna get locked up for blaming St Thomas for everything, and follow up with a "privates only" league.

[HShockeywatcher]

I've said it before, but the two things I personally think could happen to make the tourneys better and increase draw, given the goals of the MSHSL for equal representation and such, is to not allow teams to opt up and not treat the smaller tourney as less significant.
1. You would see more top teams year after year. Instead of having 5 teams that don't deserve to be there, you might have 1. By allowing teams to opt up, the MSHSL is saying that AA is better. When, as many have pointed out, in hockey size doesn't always matter. The Schwan Tourney Gold Cup has 4 (correct me if I'm wrong) teams this year who are Class A size.
2. All the Class A games (aside from the first day), even the championship, is during the day when people are busy or at work. Three years ago there was an awesome Class A championship game between Totino and Warroad. That was probably one of the top games of the tourney but very few saw it because it was a Class A game. If they were given equal importance and treated the same, more would get to see the games and wouldn't be looked on as a lesser class.
a. Possibly more fuel for some fires. Think of the location of most of the private schools. All (I think) are class A size and most are in the same region of the state. Doing this would eliminate privates from the AA tourney and limit how many could participate. You wouldn't have private school section, but only a few they could come out of.

If their goal is equal representation from the state, why does it help to see more small schools than big schools year after year?

[defense]

As stated by MSHSL officials during the tourney in the past year (maybe two) when talking about the realigning of the sections, they don't "care" about the quality of the teams as much as they do of equal representation from around the state. They would never seed as there are parts of the state that wouldn't be represented. Closest you could get would be what the NCAA does for hockey, but that probably wouldn't happen either.

If the MSHSL really cared so much about equall representation from around the state, ( I am not doubting the story)...then why does class AA look as it does??????
If every team played where the MSHSL put them, the North Eastern MN including the Iron Range would have NO schools in class AA.
I believe that as it is now, Moorhead, St. Cloud Tech, Branerd, and the coop of CIA/ whoever..... are the only greater Minnesota teams that the MSHSL has put into class AA, the rest opt up......
so 21FROMTHEBAY, if East didn't opt up (as they should and are doing) you would likely have them in your section.

Because the MSHSL knows which teams are going to opt up and they adjust their sections accordingly. It's not rocket science.

Not rocket science indeed. However, why then are fewer and fewer doing it?????? They cannot bring that to the bank.
As it sits right now, there is NO aa section that is completely made up of outstate teams.....that is wrong....and it is NOT representing the state equally.

[HShockeywatcher]

Well, they have to make the sections out of all the teams in AA, not make certain teams AA so they can make the section. That being said, how does 8AA make sense? We have Roseau, Moorhead, St Cloud Tech, Monticello, etc...it spans most of the northern half of the state.

[defense]

Well, they have to make the sections out of all the teams in AA, not make certain teams AA so they can make the section. That being said, how does 8AA make sense? We have Roseau, Moorhead, St Cloud Tech, Monticello, etc...it spans most of the northern half of the state.

They do have to make the sections out of AA schools NOW. That is the point, they need to change what they have, reconfigure the state etc....
Then You could have a section 8aa that does make sense....