Tier 1

[Bruins]

Observer, ther are no restictions on residence (meaning any state) but they do require a certain % from Wisconsin, exact amount I'm not sure . This is determined by Wisconsin hockey rules. You say poor management/administration, sneaky, rule violating, I am not aware of any of that. Who does not view them favorably. You say "become a friend instead of a sneaky enemy" I'm not sure I understand that one either. What rules and regulations are they not following. The '93 team was unfotunate, but that was taken care of. There are many associations with problems also, even suspended coaches. It's all unfortunate for the players but it does happen. And these problems are not just limited to hockey. I disagree with everything you say except the issue with the '93 team. The Fire is well run and I know many good families involved at all levels. Come watch a team play, talk to a player, I'm sure you will see it differently.

[MoreCowBell]

Bruins,

Which is it? You say both, "there are no restrictions on residence." But you also say, "they do need to have a percentage of Wisconsin players though."

Is there a rule regarding percentage of players from the state where the team is registered? Fire rule? WI Hockey rule? MAHL rule? Was it changed after their 1993 team was forced to forfeit their games in the Wisconsin championship?

They changed their name to Fire Hockey Club last year and dropped Wisconsin from their name.

This organization has shown extremely poor management and administration. Maybe we can get Fire leadership to clearly state their goals and intentions and be more welcomed instead of their sneaky, rule violating, ways. They could be viewed more favorably if they put on a friendly public face.

Hello, Fire, care to state your intentions? How you'll comply with rules and regulations? Become a friend instead of a sneaky enemy.

There is nothing sneaky about the Fire program, they follow the Wisc. requirements to have a santioned team, inluding 20% of the roster has to be residents of Wisc. The Fire play all of thier home games in Somerset, and they have some practices there, but it is only one sheet which has to share with the Somerset and New Richmond hockey programs, so the Fire has to get practice ice elsewhere. My understanding the whole Fire program was punished because one coach had let his certification lapse. The penalty was most of the levels were to be inelligable for the state and national championships (a little self serving by the other Wisc. teams). Because of this the 96 level team has only one returning player so they probably will disband.

[boardmember]

Bruins,

This organization has shown extremely poor management and administration. Maybe we can get Fire leadership to clearly state their goals and intentions and be more welcomed instead of their sneaky, rule violating, ways. They could be viewed more favorably if they put on a friendly public face.

Hello, Fire, care to state your intentions? How you'll comply with rules and regulations? Become a friend instead of a sneaky enemy.

The Fire Organization should be run more like Minnesota Hockey. Rock Solid leadership, great management, excellent admininstration, No "Good Ole Boys" network, Definitive clear direction as to hockey in Minesota, real drive to take care of Districting problems, no behind the scenes secret affiliations of Private School Bantam Teams, a real commitment to all of Minnesota hockey not just the metro Districts especially when state tournament venues are involved. No coaching issues, everyone certified, no lapses in certification, consistent waiver policies, consistent %'s of kids playing "A" level hockey. Allow Districts to pass rules that discriminate against kids, Do not follow USA hockey guidelines and make up your own rules, age classifications, take ads out in Lets Play hockey and blast a District Director that tried to do what he felt was right but it rubbed the "Good ole boy" network the wrong way.

Put on a friendly face? If this was done the Fire Organization would be viewed more favorably. Hell, they would look just like Minesota Hockey!

[insidethenhl.com]

[quote="Bruins"]The Wisconsin Fire is not a Minnesota Team. They are Wisconsin teams (98-95?)with Minnesota and Wisconsin players. Just like other AAA winter teams , many will have players from other states. I think it makes sense that this team has many Minnesota players since the home of the Fire is on the Minnesota border. They could take players from North Dakota and Iowa if they wanted to, there are no restictions on residence. They do need to have a pecentage of Wisconsin players though. I think winter AAA confuses many people in Minnesota because they are used to the association type model (many restrictions about residence , different birth year cutoffs and game count cap in MN). There are no secrets about getting players, they held open tryouts last month at all levels( on Fire website). I think its a great opportunity for a handful of players in Minnesota. They usually put out a good product and many Minnesota teams like to invite them to scimmage or play in MN tournaments. I think its great having a AAA team so close by.[/quote]


How is picking the current 98 machine team an "open tryout". Seems the team was picked prior to there ever being a tryout.

[itsmorefun]

The Fire Organization should be run more like Minnesota Hockey. Rock Solid leadership, great management, excellent admininstration, No "Good Ole Boys" network, Definitive clear direction as to hockey in Minesota, real drive to take care of Districting problems, no behind the scenes secret affiliations of Private School Bantam Teams, a real commitment to all of Minnesota hockey not just the metro Districts especially when state tournament venues are involved. No coaching issues, everyone certified, no lapses in certification, consistent waiver policies, consistent %'s of kids playing "A" level hockey. Allow Districts to pass rules that discriminate against kids, Do not follow USA hockey guidelines and make up your own rules, age classifications, take ads out in Lets Play hockey and blast a District Director that tried to do what he felt was right but it rubbed the "Good ole boy" network the wrong way.

Put on a friendly face? If this was done the Fire Organization would be viewed more favorably. Hell, they would look just like Minesota Hockey!

Boardmember:

I was trying to figure out how to respond to Bruins myself, but I couldn't have said it better myself! Nicely done... How true...How true...

[itsmorefun]

oops...I meant "Observer" in my last post...not Bruins. Sorry Bruins - you know what you're talking about!

[Bruins]

insidethenhl.com, the 98 Machine has some of the best 98 players in the state. You dont think they are worthy of making the team?

[observer]

Some of the best 1998 players in what state?

[insidethenhl.com]

[quote="Bruins"]insidethenhl.com, the 98 Machine has some of the best 98 players in the state. You dont think they are worthy of making the team?[/quote]


Yes, they probably are very good players but the best in the region? Or just Lakeville? Seems that the Lakeville Mafia creates waves wherever they go.

[greybeard58]

From the USA Hockey Annual Guide 2007-08. Page 136
Except for Juniors, a team must register in the USA Hockey affiliate or
district in which 80% or more of its players reside; otherwise, if 80% of the
players do not reside in a single affiliate/district, it must register in the
affiliate or district where it plays the highest percentage of its home games.
Any exception must be approved by the affiliate/district in which the team
normally would be registered and by the affiliates/districts which comprise
the region (as defined under Section XII. DISTRICT AND NATIONAL
CHAMPIONSHIPS) in which the team will be registered. This determination
will be based on the roster of the current season and/or playing schedule. The
regular season shall be September 1 through August 31.

[inthebox]

as a former fire player i would just like to share a few items. on the 92 fire we were required to carry about 3 to 4 wisconsin players so about 20%. I left my association after playing squirts.The organization is not evil in any way but yes we were hated by many minnesota teams. the main focus of the aaa program is to play teams from around the country at a younger age than lets say before juniors. there should be no concern about the kids leaving early because every member of my disbanded team is playing high school hockey. as major bantams the whole team folded because many players joined high school teams. i think it would be unfair to punish these kids for leaving and coming back because in my opinion it is a very rewarding experience that gives a player a glimpse of talent outside minnesota. no recruiting is involved and it is not political in any way with the exception of needing wisoconsin players. the travel was indeed brutal but really made me appreciate how nice it is to play at home. without the fire i doubt i would be were i am now. read or skip just wanted to chip in.

[observer]

Greybeard,

Can you translate please? They are registered as a Wisconsin team yet the teams are made up of 80% Minnesota players.

http://firehockey.pucksystems2.com/

http://www.waha-hockey.com/region6.php

Any exception must be approved by the affiliate/district in which the team
normally would be registered (MN Hockey?)

and by the affiliates/districts which comprise
the region (as defined under Section XII. DISTRICT AND NATIONAL
CHAMPIONSHIPS) in which the team will be registered. (WI Hockey?)

Fire, explain how you received approval and on what basis? Maybe you can play but just not in the Wisconsin State Championships? Did you receive approval from the District/Region where the players reside?

I had heard there were also issues with playing opponents in the District/Region where the team is registered and the Fire plays an almost exclusive Minnesota schedule other than their MAHL League schedule. Some teams played almost no Wisconsin opponents outside the MAHL.

And to you various shifty babies, I said I'm in favor of AAA Tier 1 but I'd like to see it done within the rules. The season hasn't started and I sense the Fire heading down their regular violating rules road. Great leadership. Arrogant and stupid again. Who's doing the rubber stamping on this poorly organized band of good hockey playing renegades.

[O-townClown]

the main focus of the aaa program is to play teams from around the country at a younger age than lets say before juniors.

And that's the part that seems backward to me. If Minnesota has a shortcoming it is probably at the upper ages.

[O-townClown]

The season hasn't started and I sense the Fire heading down their regular violating rules road. Great leadership. Arrogant and stupid again. Who's doing the rubber stamping on this poorly organized band of good hockey playing renegades.

You have a strong anti-Fire bias. I don't think it is fair to call the kids renegades. At worst their parents bought into a line that this was somehow better than playing at home.

I don't think there is any mystery about their registration. They were under the Wisconsin umbrella and had teams comprised mostly of Minnesota players.

[wildfan25]

I'm usually just an observer, but felt the need to chime in...

Fire hockey was the best experience we've ever had it regards to hockey.
It gave us a chance to travel around and spend more time with our son; it gave him a chance to meet kids from all over (not just association); and most importantly it got us away from the arrogant minnesota hockey associations - if only for a short period of time. My son would not be the hockey player he is today if it wasn't for Fire Hockey. The coaches are more committed than any that I had in Minnesota; we had more ice time than we ever got in Minnesota and at times that were convienent for families; and the level of hockey that we played was way beyond what we found in Minnesota (at least at the association we played for - not everyone gets the opportunity to live in Edina or Eden Prairie, etc). The friendships both we and our son created will last a lifetime! Thank you Fire Hockey for 4 years of incredible hockey and incredible memories! He will come back to Minnesota a much better player because of Fire Hockey.

[Bruins]

Observer, what is your obsession with the Fire? Did your child get cut during Fire tryouts or did his team get beat by the Fire? You seem to be the only one here that has a bone for them. Get over it.

[observer]

Bruins,

You're confusing my issues. I'm a fan of Tier 1. My kids play with and against Fire players all the time. They're kids and I like them all. They play with great determination which is a style everyone can appreciate. My issue has nothing to do with the kids.

In order for Tier 1 to be successfully grown in Minnesota (Wisconsin?)it's best that everyone have positive experiences with the small amount of Tier 1 currently available. I just feel that Fire management is damaging the experience,and future, for everyone. As I said in an earlier post, the evolution is sloppy. They need visible organization and compliance. Why can't anyone explain the rules and how the organization will comply. Why so sneaky on the surface. Post it on the Website, here are our challenges and here's how we're going to handle them. By doing this and this we plan to comply with rules and grow our organization. I'm just suggesting that something isn't right. Maybe I'm wrong but currently I believe I'm correct. Help me understand? Your comment, "get over it", isn't quite the description that several interested parties in Minnesota and Wisconsin were interested in hearing.

How are you going to handle the roster requirement and what is it?
How are you going to handle the games played against opponents in the region the team is registered in requirement and what is it?
Do Wisconsinites favor a Wisconsin based Tier 1 organization with teams that only have 20% (if that) Wisconsin based players?

Hey I'm also a fan of the old wild west, is that what we have here? Either the organization is in full compliance and then it should be explained? Or they're not, and they're hiding and hoping and praying.

There's a need and desire for winter Tier 1 in Minnesota's future and I want it done right.

Bruins,
Seemingly, as a parent of a Fire player, didn't you want answers to some of my questions? Do you have the answers? What are they?

[O-townClown]

There's a need and desire for winter Tier 1 in Minnesota's future and I want it done right.

Clearly some have a desire. If everyone could agree on the need you'd be done.

Out of curiosity...

What do you think the need is?
* how pervasive
* what ages
* details

[HockeyFan55]

[quote="Bruins"]Observer, ther are no restictions on residence (meaning any state) but they do require a certain % from Wisconsin, exact amount I'm not sure . This is determined by Wisconsin hockey rules. You say poor management/administration, sneaky, rule violating, I am not aware of any of that. Who does not view them favorably. You say "become a friend instead of a sneaky enemy" I'm not sure I understand that one either. What rules and regulations are they not following. The '93 team was unfotunate, but that was taken care of. There are many associations with problems also, even suspended coaches. It's all unfortunate for the players but it does happen. And these problems are not just limited to hockey. I disagree with everything you say except the issue with the '93 team. The Fire is well run and I know many good families involved at all levels. Come watch a team play, talk to a player, I'm sure you will see it differently.[/quote]



Please check Page 174 of the 2007-08 USA Hockey Annual Guide:

Except for Juniors, a team must register in the USA Hockey affiliate or district in which 80% of more of its players reside. otherwise, if 80% of the players do not reside in a single affiliate/district, it must register in the affiliate or district where it plays the highest percentage of its home games.


I think that 80% swings east of the border

[Bruins]

Observer, I feel like we are repeating the same thing. Who do you want them to explain the rules to? What are they not in compliance with? Roster requirements/what is it? How does any of this affect you? Sneaky, I still dont get that. How come you are not asking for requirements from the Madison Capitols, Green Bay Jr Gamblers and Milwaukee Jr Admirals? These are other AAA teams in Wisconsin that play in the winter. All these teams have played in Minnesota. And no, I am not a Fire parent. I love to chirp in when I hear people who do not like AAA winter hockey. Many of my posts are in defence of the Fire/Machine/Blades/Icemen/Cyclones/Stealth/Synergy, you get the idea. My kids grew up on AAA hockey out East and we loved it. I think it would be great to see some winter AAA teams from Minnesota on the national stage.

[wiscobad]

[

[boardmember]

Please check Page 174 of the 2007-08 USA Hockey Annual Guide:

Except for Juniors, a team must register in the USA Hockey affiliate or district in which 80% of more of its players reside. otherwise, if 80% of the players do not reside in a single affiliate/district, it must register in the affiliate or district where it plays the highest percentage of its home games.

I think that 80% swings east of the border

Fact,

Fire, Gamblers, Admirals and Capitals are all Tier 1 teams sanctioned under WAHA. All these teams must follow the registration restrictions set forth by USA hockey or WAHA. The rules are the same for all teams

Lets do a little simple math!

Assume 17 players 2 Goalie and 15 Skaters

16 MN players 1 WI players 94% Mn, Team is outside USA Hockey rules
15 MN Players 2 WI Players 88% MN, Team is outside USA Hockey rules
14 MN Players 3 WI Players 82% MN, Team is outside USA Hockey rules
13 MN Players 4 WI Players 75% MN, Team is within USA hockey Rules

Bottom line if the Fire teams have less that 80% MN players they are within the rules of USA Hockey. Like it or not thats the way it works!

[greybeard58]

The 80% rule means that this number of players on a team must reside in the affiliate where the team is registered. The registration is according to USA Hockey rules and W.A.H.A. can be tighter. If the 80 20 is not met than the game rule comes into play. The affiliate/District in this case is WAHA and the Central District of USA Hockey. In all 4 examples the teams would have to play a majority of their home games in the Affiliate where they are registered. As an example if a WAHA registered team would play 20 games at Mn Made against different Mn Hockey registered teams then that would be considered their in the home game total whether they have listed themselves as the visitor or not.If those games were instead played in Wisconsin then that would help their total.

If any have questions the best way to get the correct answer is contact a USA Hockey Registrar or an Associate registrar.

[The Final Word]

Another thought. If the Badgers won the N.Exp with with only 5 MN PLayers, I would have to bet the other MN Teams of the WIngs, & Magiciains (who were undefeated prior to tourney) would have had entire rosters of MN kids...........guess the whole topic is null & void.:-)

[CB00]

Posted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:35 pm Post subject:
Another thought. If the Badgers won the N.Exp with with only 5 MN PLayers, I would have to bet the other MN Teams of the WIngs, & Magiciains (who were undefeated prior to tourney) would have had entire rosters of MN kids...........guess the whole topic is null & void.

Final Word, don't be a bumbling idiot. Tier 1 AAA is completely different from summer AAA. Summer AAA is NOT Tier 1! Summer AAA doesn't have rules to follow when putting together teams. I can have players from any where. Please go back to your Northern Exposure thread and cry about rosters. Did your Johnny 98's lose to a team with players from MN and WI? That's the idea of AAA. Put together the TOP players, not by community, but by talent.