St. Thomas Bantam B

[demongoed]

If a player is registered in the Minnesota youth hockey system, and he and his family decide he'll attend a private school, they are also deciding that he will go to school with kids who he won't play hockey with. It's as simple as that. It's all part of the decision. Seems like some dad's didn't want to live with the consequences of their choices, so they tried to bend and manipulate the system for selfish gain. Don't we tell our kids that in life, when they choose the behavior, they choose the consequences? Since when are these dads exempt? By the way, teams aren't upset that they got beat by Blake. They just don't like that Blake, and STA by extention, didn't play by the same rules as everyone else when putting togther their all-star teams.

[hockeydog64]

There was a lot of opposition to STA gettting an affiliate agreement at the Spring meeting. Will STA's strategy of tabeling the discussion until the Summer meeting work (i.e., will those who didn't want it fail to show, allowing MN Hockey to slip it through)?


My question to MN Hockey as it considers this: What rationale can STA give that every private school throughout the state couldn't give? Does MN hockey really want to open the door for 15 private schools in the metro area to have their own pseudo-association? And if you allow private schools to have a Bantam team and Jr. Gold team, why not Peewee? Where does it end? If the argument that "these kids wouldn't play hockey if they didn't play on this team" is a winning argument, then why not allow parents to form teams to make sure their kids only play with their buddies who they really want to play with, since some kids quit when they can't play with their pals anymore? Show a little tough love, MN Hockey, for the good of the entire state of hockey, and reject the private-school dilution of our youth programs.

[hockeyboys]

going to be the devil's advocate for a minute - so don't jump all over me...

MN hockey has for years and years advocated association hockey - and have gone against the national system of USA hockey, by making the argument that association hockey is best because kids get to play with their buddies from school. They define associations as community based - and MH further defines by school boundaries.

So, wouldn't the argument follow that if kids go to a private school - that their natural school community is the private school - and not the public school where their home is located?

I don't necessarily disagree that private schools should not be allowed to all have their own associaitons. Some of the larger privates could do a good job. Smaller ones who do it would really be doing a disservice to the kids. Not to mention the mess it would cause in greater Minnesota. So, overall, to open it up to all private schools to have thier own associations is a mess that I would think Minnesota Hockey wouldn't want to have to clean up later.

It just seems to me that the argument has to be something better than "we all hate private schools so whatever they do is bad." If private schools are not allowed to field their own teams - or have their own associations, than maybe it is time for Minnesota Hockey to redefine what a school community is???

[Pucknutz69]

If STA wants to have a hockey program like this, Why don't they go the route of Shattuck? Why even mess around with MN Hockey? Its apparent they have money to travel. The Bantam team can play a Teir 2 schedule, Varsity and JV can eventually head that route. They can recruit all they want then and not worry about playing in any district. They could stil schedule games with local team sthey just won't be in a league or tournaments. JV team can Join Elite 2 for fall and HS can join Elite 1 like Shattuck does.

[hockeydog64]

going to be the devil's advocate for a minute - so don't jump all over me...

MN hockey has for years and years advocated association hockey - and have gone against the national system of USA hockey, by making the argument that association hockey is best because kids get to play with their buddies from school. They define associations as community based - and MH further defines by school boundaries.

So, wouldn't the argument follow that if kids go to a private school - that their natural school community is the private school - and not the public school where their home is located?

I don't necessarily disagree that private schools should not be allowed to all have their own associaitons. Some of the larger privates could do a good job. Smaller ones who do it would really be doing a disservice to the kids. Not to mention the mess it would cause in greater Minnesota. So, overall, to open it up to all private schools to have thier own associations is a mess that I would think Minnesota Hockey wouldn't want to have to clean up later.

It just seems to me that the argument has to be something better than "we all hate private schools so whatever they do is bad." If private schools are not allowed to field their own teams - or have their own associations, than maybe it is time for Minnesota Hockey to redefine what a school community is???

Interesting questions, and I don't meant to jump all over you, but here are some responses.

What do you by "the mess it would create in greater Minnesota"? Last time I checked, it was the metro associations that would really be hurt by the private school associations. District 1, for example, probably has 8 or more private schools in its borders.

Also, the big problem is this: defining an association based on school boundaries doesn't work when a school has NO boundaries, and instead draws from wherever the heck it wants to draw. Private schools draw from associations that are already defined (and that are limited geographically by their school boundaries). It's not about "we hate private schools" (in fact I think private schools have a lot to offer), it's about fairness in creating hockey teams and fairness to associations.

If a kid lives in Minnetonka but "open enrolls" into Wayzata, I'm pretty sure he still has to play in Minnetonka even though his "natural community" is now Wayzata, right? It's not just about private schools -- it's about consistency and fairness.

[Tenoverpar]

So Hockeydog64, are you suggesting that the private schools go AAA?
Have the private schools band together and create a parochial AAA league in the cities?? Intersting theory if it was true.

If you had a AAA league of Hill-Breck-CDH-HA-Shattuck-Providence-ST T-maybe St Cloud C-, you'd have an 8 team Minnesota AAA league for Bantam Major through Midget's...hmm....if that happened, you'd see a MAJOR influx of recruiting and more hatred for private schools than there already is.

I like it though...if sure would change tradition and let's be frank, tradition is Minnesota hockey. So maybe I don't like it. In theory though, the concept would be doable.

[hockeydog64]

So Hockeydog64, are you suggesting that the private schools go AAA?
Have the private schools band together and create a parochial AAA league in the cities?? Intersting theory if it was true.

If you had a AAA league of Hill-Breck-CDH-HA-Shattuck-Providence-ST T-maybe St Cloud C-, you'd have an 8 team Minnesota AAA league for Bantam Major through Midget's...hmm....if that happened, you'd see a MAJOR influx of recruiting and more hatred for private schools than there already is.

I like it though...if sure would change tradition and let's be frank, tradition is Minnesota hockey. So maybe I don't like it. In theory though, the concept would be doable.

No, I wasn't suggesting that. But if these teams wanted to do that, I think that's a better option than letting them play within Minnesota Hockey under different rules than the other teams play by (e.g., no geographic boundaries for privates, geographic boundaries enforced for non-privates). If it's that important to private schools to have their own Bantam league, then let them do the work it takes to establish a league, administer the league, schedule games, etc., and have their own "state championship." In my opinion that's better than Minnesota Hockey letting in teams that will hurt the programs of established Minnesota Hockey associations.

[hockeyboys]

hockeydog,

you need to get your fact correct. the privates play under the same rules as the publics. there is open enrolement at public schools as well. going into 9th grade - a kid can go where he wants.

if you want to take a look at the school with the biggest influx of players outside their own association - private or public - take a look at Jefferson. They have more kids in the high school program that did not play youth hockey in thier associaiton than any other school.

[finance_gal]

With every school district that has a failed levy the threats to cut sports such as Hockey soon follow. Unless we see major reform in the operations and financing of public schools I can see Schools abandoning all sports and club teams taking over for the school districts.

If Minnesota Hockey doesn't serve these Private teams someone else will and their Hockey dollars will follow which will eventually erode Minnesota Hockeys monopoly.

This is the first step in in the club team scenario and Minnesota hockey has chosen to manage it through there existing stucture which I think is a mistake. If they want to manage what I'm sure will soon be a slew of new teams that can compete on the highest levels they should start from scratchwith a new high level league.

By putting these all star teams on the ice with some area teams is only going to make Minnesota Hockey look inept and embaress average teams who will be getting beat 7 to1.

[hockeydog64]

hockeydog,

you need to get your fact correct. the privates play under the same rules as the publics. there is open enrolement at public schools as well. going into 9th grade - a kid can go where he wants.

if you want to take a look at the school with the biggest influx of players outside their own association - private or public - take a look at Jefferson. They have more kids in the high school program that did not play youth hockey in thier associaiton than any other school.

With all due respect, I think that your facts are wrong here, not mine. We aren't talking about high school teams here, but youth teams (Bantam and Jr. Gold). A kid who switches public schools through open enrollment is not entitled to play in the youth association (e.g., on the Bantam team) of the high school he switches to (unless he physically moves his residence into that school's geographic area). For example, if a kid who lives in Anoka chooses to go to Wayzata High School through open enrollment, that does not entitle him to play in Wayzata's Bantam program.

[hockeyboys]

yes - you are correct. i was referring to hs recruiting not youth hockey. HS starts for most schools in 9th grade - that is the age group that these privates want to capture in their own programs. Perhaps the discussion should be broadened to include those 9th graders that enroll at a different public high school too. I agree with you - the rules should be the same across the board - privates, publics - all the same. When it comes to open enrollment in public schools - they have no boundaries just like privates.

I think the question should be broadened from - should St. Thomas get their own Bantam team - to how should Minnesota Hockey boundaries be defined? Minnesota Hockey has for years argued in favor of association based hockey - as opposed to A, AA, AAA as is done in the rest of the country. One of the reasons often given is that playing with friends keeps kids in the sport. If that is really the case - than is it not better to allow kids that are enrolled - both private and public - to skate for the association in which their school is located?

I'm not saying this is a great idea - just a thought. What i don't like is the arbitrary granting of waivers. this whole thing should be fair across the board. Some associations grant waivers, some don't. Seems if there was a standard rule - it would be more fair. MN hockey has also promoted the idea that associaiton should be based around school communities. Again - if that is the argument - shouldn't the kid play for the association where the school is located?

Also - if a change like this was made - the player shouldnt have a choice. Make the rule across the board - play for the association where the school is located - you don't get to pick - just like now. The difference is that the boundaries are defined by the location of the school attendance - not the location of the home. And... this also makes more sense for those kids who have parents that live in different attendance areas.

If all the kids who were enrolled at a certain high school played for the same association - then the association could determine if they would have a team specifically for that school. It would be based on numbers and ability levels. Can't put C players and a B team - just to keep them together, etc.

I'm trying not to make this a private vs. public - I would just like to see a decison that makes sense - so is fair to all the kids.

your thoughts?

[Educator29]

So are all the Private school's doing this?? Hill Murray, BSM, Totino Grace, etc ????

[Charliedog]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that St. Thomas and Blake are only doing a "B" bantam team, not an "A" team. So who is this helping or hurting? They are already pulling up the top 2nd year A bantams into their JV programs.

I really have no opinion one way or the other, but for years I have been reading on this forum that the private schools are stealing the "A" bantams that have been trained by the associations making this unfair to the public schools. Then I have read the flip side of this where the private school "A" bantam parents are saying that the local asoociations will not draft their kids because they are just going to leave anyway.

Does anyone know the REAL reason as to why the privates are trying to field B bantam team. It would be an interesting tidbit to know.

[jancze5]

I like the idea of the Parochial schools collectively having their own Bantam league. Why not? It gives the school a look from the bottom of what's in their program. Of course, just because Hill offers a Bantam team playing the Parochial Bantam league doesn't mean that little Joey is going to play at Hill and not Cottage Grove...

Logically it could work. The question would then be if the MinnHock approved it, would these teams be eligible for the state tournament and/or local tournaments? I'd hesitate to call this a AAA league versus simply a new conference/district.

Where I grew up, our state had 5 classes, 1 of which was parochial. At the end of each and every sport season, each class would crown a State champion..the 5 classes would then play a tournament of champions. Of course the class 4 and 5 large schools had a numbers advantage, but the parochials had recruiting and the small schools had there chance on a big stage to bring it. It was always great going to a Meet or tournament of champions events, where the best of each class was brought together for an overall singular state champion.

I guess the point being, a Parochial only league isn't far fetched or new.

[hockeydog64]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that St. Thomas and Blake are only doing a "B" bantam team, not an "A" team. So who is this helping or hurting?

It's hurting youth associations with already dwindling numbers who lose kids and program depth (and financial support) to the private school teams before high school, and it's hurting the true "B" teams that have to face artificial "B" teams (i.e., teams that didn't establish themselves as a B team based on tryouts, etc.).

[hockeyboys]

Hockeydog,

yes -some associations lose players - and some associations gain players - as long as all the kids keep playing - and Minnesota Hockey comes up with something to make sure they don't go start their own sepperate league. Isn't it better all around if more kids keep playing hockey?

MN Hockey has often said that kids keep playing if they are with their friends. So wouldn't it follow that it actually helps hockey in Minnesota because more kids keep playing? Which associations win and which loose - can't say I have acdtually looked to see which associaiton boundaries the private schools are located. I think you or somone said there is 6 in St. Paul - well if those players are all part of Highland - District 1 - that would certainly be good for hockey in general. City hockey could use some players after years of exodus to the burbs.

If would certainly be better to keep those players in MN hockey - and not just having a seperate league for privates. And looking at the big picture - supposedly more kids would keep playing hockey.

[hockeydog64]

Hockeydog,

yes -some associations lose players - and some associations gain players - as long as all the kids keep playing - and Minnesota Hockey comes up with something to make sure they don't go start their own sepperate league. Isn't it better all around if more kids keep playing hockey?

MN Hockey has often said that kids keep playing if they are with their friends. So wouldn't it follow that it actually helps hockey in Minnesota because more kids keep playing? Which associations win and which loose - can't say I have acdtually looked to see which associaiton boundaries the private schools are located. I think you or somone said there is 6 in St. Paul - well if those players are all part of Highland - District 1 - that would certainly be good for hockey in general. City hockey could use some players after years of exodus to the burbs.

If would certainly be better to keep those players in MN hockey - and not just having a seperate league for privates. And looking at the big picture - supposedly more kids would keep playing hockey.

I disagree. It isn't good for small associations to lose players to a private school. That hurts the community association, and threatens the viability of the association. Bantam hockey is generally thought of as the top level of youth associations, and to allow private schools to drop in and take away players at that level is unfair to associations that have worked to bring kids up through the program.

You seem to be under the impression that a private school would be playing within an existing association. That is NOT the case -- the private schools become their own association, with no geographic restrictions. If there were 6 private schools in the Highland area, for example, those private schools would add NOTHING to the Highland association.

You can only take the mantra "it's good if kids play with their friends" so far. If "playing with friends" is the goal, then why not do away with associations altogether and allow kids to pick their own teams? If little Johnny threatens to quit hockey because he didn't make a team with most of his friends, he needs his parents to give him a kick in the pants and send him back out on the ice to work harder so he makes the team he wants to play on next year. Instead, it seems as though little Johnny's parents are saying "that's okay son, we'll build you your own team with your friends on it." That's good for Minnesota Hockey? Not in my opinion.

[hockeyboys]

Hockeydog,

you are incorrect. The private schools do not have their own associations - (I'm not sure about Blake).
St. Thomas played for either Richfield or Edison association- you would have to check. SPA had a deal worked out a few years ago with Highland. Minnehaha played within Washburn. The private schools have worked it out with the associations - who accept the players in on waivers from other associations - if the player isn't already from that association.

those players are not lost to Minnesota Hockey - they are just playing for a different associaiton. The association in which their school is located. (or in the case of St. Thomas - the association they cut a deal with that would accept them (different story - different day)).

And why should some kids get waivers - while kids in other associations can't get them. Make the process fair - and not just up to what the current association president's opinion happens to be.

These associations need players just as much as the associations losing them. And whose to say those associations don't gain players if there is a private school within their area?

I'm not even trying to advocate this as a good idea. I'm just saying something fair should be done. What St. Thomas had last year should not have happened. And kids going to public schools for 9th grade - such as the kids going to Jefferson - would be affected as well. So it is not just about private schools.

[hockeydog64]

Hockeydog,

you are incorrect. The private schools do not have their own associations - (I'm not sure about Blake).
St. Thomas played for either Richfield or Edison association- you would have to check. SPA had a deal worked out a few years ago with Highland. Minnehaha played within Washburn. The private schools have worked it out with the associations - who accept the players in on waivers from other associations - if the player isn't already from that association.

those players are not lost to Minnesota Hockey - they are just playing for a different associaiton. The association in which their school is located. (or in the case of St. Thomas - the association they cut a deal with that would accept them (different story - different day)).

And why should some kids get waivers - while kids in other associations can't get them. Make the process fair - and not just up to what the current association president's opinion happens to be.

These associations need players just as much as the associations losing them. And whose to say those associations don't gain players if there is a private school within their area?

I'm not even trying to advocate this as a good idea. I'm just saying something fair should be done. What St. Thomas had last year should not have happened. And kids going to public schools for 9th grade - such as the kids going to Jefferson - would be affected as well. So it is not just about private schools.

You need to do your homework. While you are right that last year St. Thomas was sort of part of Richfield and Minnehaha was part of Washburn, it's already been determined that that scenario won't happen again. The current issue (and what I'm writing about) is STA and Holy Family (and soon Holy Angels, Cretin, SPA, Hill-Murray, Breck, etc. etc.) getting their own affiliation agreements (which IS what Blake currently has). STA is on the agenda for Minnesota Hockey's meeting this weekend, and it WON'T be a request to be part of an existing association, but to have their own affiliation agreement and to play in District 8 -- the very district from whose associations they'll be raiding players (according to spokes-people from that district who were at the Spring MN Hockey meeting). Read the minutes from the Spring Minnesota Hockey meeting and the agenda for this weekend's Minnesota Hockey meeting (on the Minnesota HOckey website) so that you have some idea about what's going on here. You will see that your arguments about this helping existing associations is totally wrong, and that what is being proposed by STA (and Holy Family) is an exception for them that gives them the ability to cherry pick players however they choose to do so, without regard to how it affects the local associations that developed the players.

The fair thing to do is no private school associations, no waivers. Let the kids (and their parents) wait one more frickin' year when they can play for their beloved private school in high school. If Minnesota Hockey makes an exception for private schools, they will be opening the door to churches, boy scout and girl scout troops, neighborhoods and country clubs to lobby for (and sue for) the right to host their own team so that "kids who would otherwise quit can continue to play with their buddies . . ." That would be good for Minnesota Hockey, right?

[hockeyboys]

I referred to the past agreements. Will be interesting to see if the privates are allowed their own affiliation agreements. I know St. Thomas is pushing - but is there really movement from the other schools to have their own associations?

sorry you hate private schools so much. I don't disagree with any of your points, I just don't like your approach to the issue as being a private school bashing opportunity. If those of you would stop that practice, your arguements would be better received and you would be listened to more seriously. As soon as you start with the private school bashing - nobody listens to the rest of your argument. You are shooting yourself in the foot.

I just can't see many of the privates having enough players to have their own association. Most of those schools don't have elementary - just start in 9th grade. Which mostly will only be 2nd year bantams. How are they going to run their own associations with such a limited number of players? Holy Angels, St. Thomas, Hill??? Can't believe Cretin is interested - they have a good thing going as most students already play for Highland.

Which privates do you really think this affects? How many players?

I liked my idea better than this one. I would agree with you - i don't see how this is a win for anyone. And - i dont think it helps those players develop. If I were a Bantam player - i'm not certain that this is a selling point for me.

[hockeydog64]

sorry you hate private schools so much. I don't disagree with any of your points, I just don't like your approach to the issue as being a private school bashing opportunity. If those of you would stop that practice, your arguements would be better received and you would be listened to more seriously. As soon as you start with the private school bashing - nobody listens to the rest of your argument. You are shooting yourself in the foot.

I don't hate private schools -- in fact I'd say the opposite is true. Where am I bashing private schools? All I'm saying that I don't like is the 3 private schools in question here trying to get a special privileges and special rules within MN Hockey, and I don't like the tactics that they are using.

[hockeyboys]

coulnd't agree with you more. there is a way to do this - while strengthening MN Hockey - and community based hockey in MN. And there is a way to do this that hurts everyone - including the development of all the kids. Associations for the private schools to run thier own Bantam programs hurts everyone.

If they did it as part of the local associaiton - then it could be a positive that helps everyone. And if St. Thomas happens to have enough A level Bantam players - then they work within the West St. Paul Asosciation to field an A team that particular year. Yes - some associations lose players - but others gain - but overall - they all stay in MN Hockey Associations - and supposedly more kids keep playing hockey because they play with their friends.

[Ontheice]

They're back! In District 6

[hockeydog64]

They're back! In District 6

Really? Please tell us more!

[davinci]

They're back! In District 6

Really? Please tell us more!

delete