St. Cloud Youth Hockey Split

[whockeyguy]

Ok its been the weekend and still no one has answered my question of earlier, Give me one logical reason why the Tech group should not have control of the program that feeds thier school,,, To Me it should be so simple , But somebody out there give me that one reason

[greybeard58]

2pipesin, you forgot to add that the Schools/associations mentioned above only have one school to feed, as for English as a second language that is where the recruiting maybe needs to and with the income level fund raising is most definitely important, Rochester, Duluth,Lakeville,Osseo/Maple Grove and Mankato all field 2 A Teams. Over thee years I have been in areas a lot worse off economically than St Cloud.

By the way I just found that the total enrollment listed on the 742 web site is 6732 from K-9 and does not include Special Ed and alternate schools, so say 450 players in the association out of 6732 is 6.6% of the student population another 100 players would be 8.1%. add another 100 and you are still under 10%. It is going to take very hard work to reach and recruit the players and then to find the funds to make it affordable. I never said it was easy.

[MetCenterFan]

Interesting discussion. The following is some data for youth hockey associations and #of players--only a few examples are used:

Wayzata 1443
Edina 1089
Lakeview 1051
Stillwater 1024
Eden Prarie 956
Centennial 915
Rochester 748
Champlin Park 655
Anoka 646
Andover 586
Elk River 580
St. Cloud 557
Coon Rapids 397
Rogers 361

[2pipesnin]

Greybeard - you forgot one very important factor....it's not every young boy or girls ambition to play hockey. They may choose to play basketball or choose not play a sport at all. And splitting the association will make fund raising even more difficult to differ cost. So I stand firm that one strong association is better then two struggling associations.

And WHO....good reasons has been stated many times, you just are not listening. Read the SCYHA mission statement.....hockey is for all kids in St Cloud that want to play. Not just the Tech bound kids. And having a private school stuck in the middle is probably one of the best reasons why a split association makes no sense in St Cloud. CHS consist of 95% students from St Cloud. CHS is not like Marshall or Blake or Hill or etc.

[Fire and Ice]

By the way D10 does the best job of running their district and if you don't think so tell everyone why? and if you are from St Cloud and don't like it go to D5. D10 has been the most progressive for preparing the kids for hs hockey. How about a 1 hour game 2 hours from your house...sound familiar D8 or 90 minute game clocks D3, D6, D2

The enrollment numbers are garbage D10 has a list that shows participation by availability. Centennial gets 33% of its youth to play hockey. St Francis has I believe a larger enrollment and gets less than 10% go figure.

[wickedshot]

Blue and Gold:

Just got home and have your cell number at work. Spent more time at the office than I planned. I will call you tomorrow, though, to ask you some questions and run some things by you. Thanks.

Mr. Elliott:

Thanks for all the information and for volunteering to help out. You have been very upfront and thoughtful.

[BlueGoose5]

So the SCTYHA consists of 4 board members, no community support, and now Mr. Elliott.

[frederick61]

Interesting discussion. The following is some data for youth hockey associations and #of players--only a few examples are used:

Wayzata 1443
Edina 1089
Lakeview 1051
Stillwater 1024
Eden Prarie 956
Centennial 915
Rochester 748
Champlin Park 655
Anoka 646
Andover 586
Elk River 580
St. Cloud 557
Coon Rapids 397
Rogers 361

The following are the largest associations by population base in the state (from 2006 Census estimates). Using the numbers above Edina, Minnetonka, and Lakeville get almost twice the numbers out even though they have two thirds of the population of St. Cloud.

Wayzata (100,000-includes Plymouth)
Rochester (97,000)
Duluth (84,000)
St. Cloud (67,000)
Coon Rapids (62,000)
Eagan (63,000)
Eden Prairie (60,000)
Blaine (55,000)
Lakeville (53,000)
Minnetonka (49,000)
Edina (45,000)
Centennial (30,000)
Andover (30,000)
Champlin Park (23,000)
Elk River (22,000)
Anoka (18,000)

[frederick61]

This is the actual growth of the association population bases from 2000 to 20006. The first number is an approximate percentage of growth, the number in () is the rounded actual growth number. St. Cloud experienced better then 10% growth in the first part of this decade.

Blaine 20% (+10,000)
Lakeville 20% (+10,000)
Centennial 15% (+4,000)
Andover 15% (+4,000)
St. Cloud 11% (+7,000)
Eden Prairie 10% (+6,000)
Wayzata 10% (+10,000)
Rochester 10% (+10,000)
Champlin Park 5% (+1,000)
Coon Rapids 1% (+1,000)
Anoka 0%
Duluth -2% (-2,000)
Minnetonka -4% (-2,000)
Edina -4% (-2,000)

[frederick61]

This is the final piece of data, the projected association population base in 2020. Rochester is projected to have the largest growth in raw numbers, 25,000. But Lakeville and Blaine have the greatest percentage of growth with St. Cloud following closely. Wayzata starts to flatten and Duluth numbers remain stable. The state growth in 2020 from today is projected to be about one million with 79% of the growth along a line from St. Cloud to Rochester outside the urban center of the twin cities. These are projections from the state and from the Met council.

If history of youth hockey repeats itself where mature communities that experience little growth have falling numbers then communities like Anoka, Coon Rapids and Champlin Park will have trouble maintaining their numbers. Rochester, St. Cloud, Lakeville, Blaine, Andover and Centennial should have good numbers. But the quality of the association can make a difference when you consider that Minnetonka and Edina have had large numbers of participating youths in the face of stagnant or declining population.

Rochester 123,000
Wayzata 105,000
Duluth 87,000
St. Cloud 80,000
Lakeville 78,000
Blaine 72,000
Coon Rapids 66,000
Eden Prairie 62,000
Minnetonka 50,000
Edina 50,000
Centennial 40,000
Andover 39,000
Champlin Park 25,000
Anoka 20,000

[observer]

In the end the most important issue, for every association, is recruiting. Our buds in the north will choke but adding 100 new mites (4, 5 & 6 year olds) every fall is the most important thing any hockey association can do. Low recruiting numbers cause nothing but problems, financially and weaker teams, in the future. Focus on improving your mite and squirt programs and the future will take care of itself.

PeeWees and Bantams don't fall from trees. Without growing mite numbers you're shrinking.

Is St. Cloud Tech a private high school?

[Blue&Gold]

Tech is the largest public school in the area. St. Cloud Cathedral is the private school in question, and probably the biggest issue at hand since many CHS attendees are from the south side, and that would mean that Tech associaton would have to develop those players as well. With the statements that this new association is here to make Tech a better program, you can see why folks are so nervous.

The second biggest issue is the fact that SCYHA fears they would lose a large chunk of it's funds that are donated simply because there are now two groups chasing the same dollar.

[George Blanda]

So the SCTYHA consists of 4 board members, no community support, and now Mr. Elliott.

That's how I understand it.

As I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, the SCTYHA president is from the North side. Accepting this motion (I understand to have been made by Mr. Elliott) would set one brutal precedent. If this group gets accepted, what would stop me from saying that all south side hockey will be divided in to an East and West?...The dividing line being Cooper Ave...I believe that would have little hockey community support...Interesting enough, the current proposed plan has no hockey community support either.

[VicKevlar]

@frederick61

Just as a quick aside, the Champlin Park numbers you are pulling are skewed. Champlin Park High School is in Brooklyn Park and vast majority of those numbers are pulled from Brooklyn Park (Population 70,000+).

Depending on where you live in Brooklyn Park, you actually skate for one of 4 associations (Champlin, North Metro, Osseo and Cooper).

[elliott70]

So the SCTYHA consists of 4 board members, no community support, and now Mr. Elliott.

That's how I understand it.

As I understand, and correct me if I am wrong, the SCTYHA president is from the North side. Accepting this motion (I understand to have been made by Mr. Elliott) would set one brutal precedent. If this group gets accepted, what would stop me from saying that all south side hockey will be divided in to an East and West?...The dividing line being Cooper Ave...I believe that would have little hockey community support...Interesting enough, the current proposed plan has no hockey community support either.

My offer of assistance was to both parties in reconciling and providing a plan to assist St Cloud stay as one program. And in addition, provide assistance in the area of recruiting for one or both. At no time did I indicate support for one or the other.

Again, there are many posting and perhaps readin on this site that do not understand the process. Without a motion and a asecond we would not have a discussion. Without a discussion the board would have little knowledge of what the situation was.
Secondly, if someone brings something to the board in the proper manner, it is the board's responsibility to provide them with an answer.
We cannot pick and choose which agenda items are important to us, which ones we like, which ones are easy.

[elliott70]

District 10 is looking for people to fill board positions that have come open.

If anyone has a problem with D10 board, now would be an opportunity to make changes.

[George Blanda]

Again, there are many posting and perhaps readin on this site that do not understand the process. Without a motion and a asecond we would not have a discussion. Without a discussion the board would have little knowledge of what the situation was.

I understand that. But, in talking with someone close to this issue I heard several good points.

One of those involved your motion.

You made a motion to approve an absolutely atrocious proposal.

Why did you not make a motion toreject this proposal?

Or, correct me if I am wrong, is that not a possibility that would still earn discussion?

And, you seemed to have tip-toed around my main question, which seems to happen often from Mr. Kennedy as well.

If MN hockey sets this as its precedent, what should keep me and a couple of my cronies from making a proposal to split the south-side association into East and West using Cooper Ave. as the dividing line?

[wickedshot]

Hey Brian:

Just what did I tiptoe around?

I've been more visible than anyone on this issue? What didn't you get an answer to? Just because we disagree or because someone didn't do something the way you thought it should be done, that signifies that they are wrong? Both parties are agreeing to visit about working something out and we're still pointing fingers?

This is exactly why this movement started. There was no mood to discuss or compromise. I brought this issue up last March, again at the general meeting in April and it was taken off the agenda in May. We tried to have a discussion. Now it appears there is some willingness to have it. Can we move forward?

[greybeard58]

GB
Yes Mr Elliott could have made the motion to keep St Cloud as one association, but if the motion had come to a vote and the vote failed to pass then because of the failure of the vote would that mean now there would be 2 associations. If you want to stir the pot try another way.
The motion was Germain to the issue on the agenda and according to Robert Rules of Order Newly Revised 2004 a proper motion with a second. If you knew Mr Elliott, he does not tap dance around a subject,any subject. While a discussion is going on he will ask questions for either side and sometimes the questions are quite direct and sometimes will state an opinion, he stated he did not state his opinion and made the motion for the purpose of finding out more facts that could not be gained with out the motion. He has also stated he volunteered to both parties to help period.I see no reason not to believe him.

Again the motion was for the purpose to continue debate which if had not been made the discussion would have been stopped. At the July meeting if wanted the motion will be brought back to the floor and can be withdrawn or voted on, not sure if it could be tabled again.

[frederick61]

Basically, I am trying to get to the facts because decisions should be made with what is best for all involved not only for today but for the future. A lot of the dialogue in this thread deals with how districts and associations should be formed. One perception is that there should be a natural fit of some sort to community and school district. That only works in communities where school district and community have the same boundary and share the same future goals. Unfortunately, that will become increasingly more unlikely to be the case in the future especially in high growth areas like the St. Cloud to Rochester corridor.

Associations survive because they have community support that gives them an arena and a place to play. It is their principle asset. The associations will always have to struggle to adjust to community needs and school district shifts. But their principle asset (arena or arenas) will not move, everything will change around them. If the association boards ignore future changes and concentrate their efforts on the present, they will be forever dealing with the present and be unprepared for the future. What is the future in youth hockey? Mites.

As “Observer” commented, “low mite recruiting numbers cause problems”. Can a good association compensate for low mite recruiting numbers? Not if the association is only looking at the present. It will not be prepared for the future and will likely have fewer and fewer mites every year.

The stats I posted earlier can give one an idea on current population versus number of youth players and also gives one an idea of relative association size and size versus numbers of players. The second gives one an idea of how these associations have changed in the past 6 years in population. The third projects potential association population (not community or school district) in the year 2020.

This St. Cloud discussion is only on the present and has become personal and emotional. There will always be some of the personal and emotional, but what are the facts and what is the future vision? My belief in looking at the facts is that St. Cloud hockey association has under performed as a service to a growing community and needs to change.

[Stealth]

Here is the WEB page for St. Cloud Boundaries and towns. Keep in mind that it looks like it is from AVON to CLEARWATER. NOT JUST ST. CLOUD. Many townships and small town to pull from. St. Joe, Waite Park, Clear Water, Clear Lake, Rockville and all the townships? Tech looks to have the biggest area in Green that the map shows!

http://isd742.org/secondaryboundarymap.pdf

[MetCenterFan]

The population postings are appreciated. Info on demographics would be interesting.

[brokenbat]

Why hasn't anyone answered George's question on dividing up the new St. Cloud Tech Youth Hockey Association by Cooper Ave into East/West because of the precedent that will have been set if it is changed? As someone who is completely unbiased and looking in from the outside of this entire situation, it seems to me that a small group of people (wicked and his cronies) have forced this issue down the throats of the people of the SCYHA without the majority of the support! There should be a right way and a wrong way to talk about a split or dividing teams according to high schools. If I was a Cathedral parent on the south side and my kid had to play in the St. Cloud Tech Youth Parent how would I know my kid is getting a fair shake when it was clearly stated by a District 742 Employee and Tech coach Chad Hommerding that this was being DONE TO BENEFIT TECH HS HOCKEY? There are way to many underlying issues in this whole ordeal and it was brought up in a completely selfish and ridiculous manner by a small group without best interest or input from SCYHA members

[George Blanda]

Hey Brian:

Just what did I tiptoe around?

Q1: What is Colleen Donovan's input in the group?

Your answer:

Is she initiating the idea, the town hall meeting, the website, the qs and As, the responses to D10 and MN Hockey? No. I run my own business and am fully capable of making decisions every day without anyone's input or suggestions. I was approached by the people on this board and other parents who have kids in SCYHA, which Donovan does not.

You didn't exactly say what Donovan's role is in this and what input she has made.


Q2 (Two-part): Is it true that you currently live on the North Side of St. Cloud?

If yes, why should a person from the North Side of St. Cloud be the president of the South-side youth hockey association without a personal agenda?

Q3: Why didn't the South-side group issue a survey to see what their community wanted as opposed to just making extremely radical decisions that would affect everybody?

[Rocket78]

In the end the most important issue, for every association, is recruiting. Our buds in the north will choke but adding 100 new mites (4, 5 & 6 year olds) every fall is the most important thing any hockey association can do. Low recruiting numbers cause nothing but problems, financially and weaker teams, in the future. Focus on improving your mite and squirt programs and the future will take care of itself.

PeeWees and Bantams don't fall from trees. Without growing mite numbers you're shrinking.

Observer, This is a great observation. Strong programs have strong bases. The wider the base, the more weight (player numbers) you can support. Good programs are very good at recruiting the younger players.

In Rochester, the Lourdes basketball coaches are outstanding at getting down to their grade schools and convincing 4th graders that they are going to have a stellar high school basketball carreer. Obviously they only play 5-8 kids at the varsity level but they set it up so that 100's of kids are involved in basketball so they can pick the best athlete's to groom. If you look at Lourdes hockey team, their goalies came from Mayo and Dodge County. At least two of the skaters attended Mayo in 9th grade. One of their top defenseman went to Century in 9th grade. One of their captains is from Stewartville. Another good forward is from Chatfield. Quite a few of the better players are from Winona. There are a few that actually attended a Catholic grade school in town but not very many.

Some of my friends complain that Lourdes is cherry picking the best players in Rochester. This may be true but a larger problem is that they seem to need to get them from the surrounding communities too. Is that a statement about Rochester's ability to produce even 15 high caliber players per year? If Lourdes talent level is going down what will happen to the 3 public schools? I can hope that it means that fewer kids are switching over to LHS but I don't know if that is true.

Using Observers comments about growing the younger ranks I observe the following change to RYHA's numbers. About 10 years ago we fielded 3 SqA teams, 6 SqB teams and 8-10 SqC teams. Now its 2 SqA, 6 SqB (small rosters too) and 4-6 SqC teams (with a large number of mites playing up). Contrast this to the girls in RYHA. Ten years ago there were 2 teams. Now we have 14A, 12A, 12B, 10A and four house league teams. Why is it growing? Anney and Nelson put on the free intro clinic in August and recruit new girls. It works so I wonder why other programs don't do the same thing. Our mites should do it too!