Edina's Squirt Bs in District 6 league action

[O-townClown]

There have been many threads on Edina's Squirt program. Topics have ranged from the kids' participation at Minnesota Made, the outrageous success of the A team, the case for multiple A teams, and the depth of their success at this level.

While District 6 doesn't keep records of Squirt league games, they do keep score. This information is pulled from the team pages of the EHA website and is believed to be accurate.

The league plays a 16 game season. Below you will find the record for those 16 games and their record in league games netting out the intra-association matchups. With 6 teams from Edina in D6, only 7 games involved two Edina teams. There were 3 ties, so the cumulative record for the six teams in those games was 4-4-6. All were competitive judging by the score, with the exception of a 10-1 result that appears to be an outlier.

• Silver 13-0-3, 12-0-2
  Green 13-1-2, 12-1-0
  Gold 13-2-1, 13-1-0
  Black 11-2-3, 11-0-2
  Gray 9-1-6, 8-1-5
  White 11-3-2, 10-2-2

While White has more wins on the year, I broke the tie by head-to-head.

Edina's cumulative record in D6 games against other B teams is 66-5-11, a winning percentage of .872.

When I was that age travel hockey was a huge honor. Somewhere along the way in the past eons it was decided that everyone gets to travel and that has both good and bad consequences. Edina's youth programs used to field House (today's equivalent is C), Gold (a high-level in-house league equivalent to today's B in Squirts and B2 in PW and Bantams), and Travel (equal to A). It should also be noted that Edina used to have A teams for both the East and West side.

Without consideration for constraints that may exist, here are two blatantly obvious ways to address the competitive imblance and a third recommendation thrown in. While kids are certainly learning how to win, they obviously aren't having many chances to learn how to compete. Most of the games are decided before the initial faceoff.

• Edina should field 2 or 3 A teams at the Squirt level. This isn't the first year most teams couldn't touch Edina's Squirts. Participation in the coming years is not projected to Enron.
  
  Edina should opt-out of D6 at the B level and take games in-house. Intra-association play has been very competitive, league games can't promise that. These teams should be playing each other at least 2 or 3 times...instead there are some they won't face all year. Two kids can be next door neighbors and sit in adjacent desks in school and they won't play hockey against each other all season. Staying within the Minnesota Hockey guidelines, the teams can still scrimmage a few travel games and enter a couple tournaments. The games move mostly to Braemar, a good thing for the 100 families involved.
  
  Squirt rosters at B level and below should be no more than 12 skaters. I think they are carrying 14 each this year and all 12 Edina teams at the Squirt level have two goaltenders. (Pretty sure.) This is not a good thing. Reducing rosters slightly will foster development in the form of increased ice time as well as forcing players to play different positions.

I know the initial reaction to the post is that some or all of these can't be done because of how rules are today, but I think the imbalance is so obvious that it only make sense to work to modify any existing rules that serve as a constraint. I wouldn't expect change to occur overnight, but I don't see one good thing with waiting five years only to see that Edina's Squirts seldom play each other and still have a winning percentage versus other programs over .800 in District 6.

Assuming the same participation, adoption of these would yield:

• *Two highly competitive Squirt A teams
  *Six B teams with slightly smaller roster sizes playing a 15-game in-house season followed by playoffs, essentially replacing the District 6 involvement
  *Five or six C teams that could play either in-house or with D6

Lest anyone think I feel Edina is too good to do what every other association does, I actually look at this from the other perspective. Rick Reilly's quote about the ills of youth sport is, "Why did we fly from Denver to D.C. to play another team from Denver?" I just fail to see the benefits of migrating away from the way things were done in the past. While other associations may not have high participation, Edina does and probably always will. Minnesota Hockey should be considerate of associations like that as well and the status quo may not adequately fit.

[Love2skate2]

my question to you o-town is: what is it that your actually pointing out here? that edina should break up there program to east/west or..? I guess i am not sure what the post is about.

can you clarify more..I am sure it's not just edina association..

[nhl'er]

The inside joke around many of the associations is how good Edina could really be if they actually got off their ego trips of trying to win every game by only fielding 1 A team vs the 2-3 that would be consistant with the size of most other associations.

Now you have let the cat out of the bag and Edina will forever become a dynasty if they read this thread and actually figure out what is in the best interest of all of their players for the long run vs the select 15 per level evry season!

So on behalf of all of us weaker less talented associations, edina, please keep on doing what you are doing today and disregard O-townClown's nonsense!!

[sorno82]

Edina is not the only one that going with a similar program would benefit them in the long run. What a lot of people don't seem to acknowledge (in these large associations) that the difference between skaters 10 and 30-40 is not that much. Any given week, 40 may be a better player than 10, and they make the team if it is tryout week and the evaluators are unbiased. Another solution would be to make a premier level like in soccer that would make an 6-10 team superconference.

I think the way it is set up now, goalies on these super teams suffer since they do not get enough competitive games to stay sharp and to develop. It has got to be hard where most of your games you are getting 10 or fewer low quality shots. You need more than practice, since letting in a goal in practice is a lot less impactful than a close game.

[hockeyparent11]

Here is an interesting suggestion. I like the idea, but I can't take credit for it.

Large associations form two A teams. Team A1 has players 1-15 and the best two goalies. Team A2 has players 16-30 and goalies 3&4.

Then all the A1 teams form a single district, playing most of their games against each other.

The A2 teams play a normal district schedule. I would guess that these teams would normally win about half of their district games.

I like this idea because it creates better competiton for the A1 players, the A2 players and all other district teams. And it does not dilute the talent pool.

[O-townClown]

my question to you o-town is: what is it that your actually pointing out here? that edina should break up there program to east/west or..? I guess i am not sure what the post is about.

can you clarify more..I am sure it's not just edina association..

Love2, the point is that at the Squirt level there are some associations like Eden Prairie and Wayzata that are not best-served by following the structure used for the rest of the state.

Many communities need to field a B team that leaves the community so those kids have others of comparable ability for them to play against. This obviously isn't the case here and I used Edina's record to indicate that. They've divvied up the players six ways and still are far above the level of most D6 teams.

There have been several threads this year on Edina's Squirt program with over 200 kids and it only makes sense now to provide a look at how they did. One of the questions being asked was how competitive the B teams were behind the uber-A team.

[Love2skate2]

i see. but isn't up to each associaition to structure it any way they want?

not sure if i like the idea of "big brother" Minnesota hockey trying to step in and regulate how many A teams an association has to have?

but before we start cutting them down the edina squirts, you should give some "cudos" to edina - For years they have been a very large hockey assoc. with the same population - I don't think there is any room left in edina to keep building new housing developments..? - they seem to attract, train and produce awesome teams and players year in and year out and every one brings thier A game when they play them.

i say - leave them be and hopefully other assocaitions will catch on to what they have done and are doing - which is fielding great teams at every level to develop and win games - isn't off-season more for development anyways?

[SWPrez]

O-Town,

I agree with you. I too grew up in that "old" Edina system with one A, One B, 6-8 Gold Division, and 6-8 Lower Division. The competition at the Gold Division was very good, and the years that I played Gold my dad/coach would schedule up an extra 15 games with B teams from around the metro (which we usually competed with and beat).

This change would probably cause some ice issues in Edina. Currently, the B teams rely on half of their games to be played at other associations' rinks plus tournaments. If all was moved 'in-house', that would put additional pressure on Braemar.

Unless, they really wanted to go retro and have many practices and games played outdoors at Creek Valley, Countryside, Lewis, or Weber. Could be done as , hands down, Edina makes the best outdoor ice in the Twin Cities. They could do what St. Paul has done and put in a couple of outdoor refridgerated rinks to supplement the pressure on Braemar.

I agree, they may be able to develop better players through running in-house programs for all of the kids they have travelling right now.

Your plan does take away the current 'hockey culture'/experience of travelling tournaments...but it does replace it with something that might be better: hanging out at the park with your buds (if the rink attendants would sell five cent Bubs Daddys and ten cent SuperAmerica Super Pop the experience would be complete).

[SuperStar]

Just curious - SW PRez and O-town: Sounds like both of you are from Edina and played hockey there - Did you NOT make the A team? Sounds like a personal thing..?

[O-townClown]

Just curious - SW PRez and O-town: Sounds like both of you are from Edina and played hockey there - Did you NOT make the A team? Sounds like a personal thing..?

A Squirts, A Pee Wee, B Bantam (Edina went to one team...had they fielded East & West I still wouldn't have made it).

I played Gold level as a 1st year in all, which translates to Squirt B, Pee Wee B2, and Bantam B2. Personal thing? Only it that it really makes no sense to have Edina participating in D6 at the Squirt B level. I don't have a dog in the fight, but sometimes people are so deep in the forest they can't see the trees. My perspective, from 1,500 miles away, is no doubt different.

As for Mr. Prez's (I know his last name but do not know him or even his brother) assertion of ice - NO! An emphatic no. If Braemar today hosts games for an Edina B team to play someone from another association it is giving up slots that can be used to get two Edina teams playing each other. It's a wash - with less drive time to other communities.

If it were up to me, many practices would be held outdoor. 45 minutes of working on breakouts or other things can be done with just a helmet. I can't believe we didn't practice outdoors as a kid whenever I made the travel teams. We went to Blake at 6:00 am before school, but heaven forbid we go to an outdoor rink. I was there any night I could make it on my own, so I certainly wouldn't have minded.

Great point, Prez.

[SWPrez]

Just curious - SW PRez and O-town: Sounds like both of you are from Edina and played hockey there - Did you NOT make the A team? Sounds like a personal thing..?

I disclosed this before. I never played A. Played B. Transfered and played high school at a private and played Division III hockey.

My brother was the same. Played B. Transferred to another High School, was all-state tourney team, and was drafted.

Some kids bloom late.

I have no grudges against "A" players or not making "A". Hockey has been very good to me and I give back in order to 'pay forward' everything coaches and parents did for me as a kid. The question that I think O-Town asks is - is there a better way to develop kids than the current way the large systems are developing their kids? I'm not sure what the right answer is but I do believe that O-Town is correct in that Edina currently has the depth where they could run excellent in-house teams.

[spin-o-rama]

All 3 of O-town's suggestions have good merit.

1) One of the arguments against multiple A teams for an association is that it would water down the A level of play. However, if an association's A2 team played better than .500 vs other association's A1 teams then they are raising the bar. I definitely think that Edina and some others could pull that off.

2) Who loves driving 45min+ to and 45min+ from a game that lasts 1 hour? Having inhouse where the competition is high makes good sense. A 6 team league provides enough variety for a squirt. It would not put more pressure on Braemar because each Edina team would still have the same # of home games. BTW, Edina already has higher demands than Braemar can support and heavily uses MM, slp, breck, mariucci, ridder, and others.

3) There is a lot to like about 12 skater rosters. Parents are always complaining about icetime. This would increase a skater's playing time by 25% per game. This would put more pressure for ice time since it means more teams. It could be partially resolved by more shared ice practices. Do mites and squirts really need a full sheet for 15 players? 30 skaters can be crowded. 24 is very doable.

SWprez mentioned building artificially refrigerated rinks. St Paul did 3 for $900,000. EHA's proposal is 1 for greater than $1million. I know this is Edina, but good grief!

[SuperStar]

Yea - But thats what they do in mites, isn't it..? AFter kids have 3 to 4 years of playing in-house - It's kind of nice to get out a play other associations..?

And wasn't trying to give you guys crap about the A team and being from Edina. It just surprises me that your not trying hard to do that in your current association...OR maybe you are??

Okay suppose Edina runs more in-house teams at the squirt level and they get better development....They will just be that much better when they do go out and play other associations and people will probably still be complaining.?? " Hey Edina can't do that - look how bad they are beating everyone" Anything they do would get scrutinized

You played college Hockey and your brother was drafted in the pros - Which is awesome!! Congrats. Doesn't that say something about how good the system is already..? - I am surpirised you guys aren't back there coaching or something

If I am wrong, please correct me. But it seems that people need to leave Edina alone and concentrate making thier own association better.

Just for the record - I did NOT grow up in or am I associated in anyway to edina hockey.

[zboni99]

I don't think Edina has the sustainable numbers to support an in-house B league. Edina has a bubble of players from 2nd yr pw's thru 1st yr sq's. Below that the numbers fall off, 3rd yr. mites 4 teams. Above that more average with 4 SQB teams.

[sorno82]

I thought Edina has a lot of mites in the choice league which may skew the numbers a bit.

I think the focus should not be what is best for Edina, WBL, or Wayzata associations, but rather what is best for the kids. Having a lot of throw away games during the year is no fun for anyone, outside of those who need to go 35-0 to satisfy their egos. Do the goalies develop and have fun with such dominance? I also notice that the advantage narrows as the year progresses in a lot of cases. That may be an interesting trend to analyze to see if it holds true. Do the dominant teams get bored during the year and lose their edge? Do weak teams get better because they improve more because they are motivated to not get smoked? Does excess summer hockey help?

It would be nice to see the mega associations do what is right for their kid long term enjoyment and development, as well as the smaller associations who play above their level.

[zboni99]

Yeah, that is true about the choice mites, but the 2nd yr mites only have 6 teams. I think the average is about 4 SQB teams. True, others catch up as they get older. The PWA's are not unbeatable squirts they were 2 years ago. By the end of the season the gap has been closed between the full-time players and the more seasonal players, or at least the gap has been narrowed by quite a bit.

[Lily Braden]

[
Squirt rosters at B level and below should be no more than 12 skaters. I think they are carrying 14 each this year andall 12 Edina teams at the Squirt level have two goaltenders. (Pretty sure.) This is not a good thing. Reducing rosters slightly will foster development in the form of increased ice time as well as forcing players to play different positions.

I'm not sure I agree on the goalie thing. Is it better to play every game on a C team, but be bored out of your mind in goal, or play half the amount of time on a B team and be challenged by the shots you face?
OR, are you proposing that there be two goalies on every C team? That would be a terrible thing for any goalie, imo.

[O-townClown]

And wasn't trying to give you guys crap about the A team and being from Edina. It just surprises me that your not trying hard to do that in your current association...OR maybe you are??

Star, no matter how hard I try, it is unlikely either of the programs my son can play for will have more than 30 rostered Squirts. Any year.

Your reply talks about development, but I was thinking fun or enjoyment first. What is the point of leaving Edina (or Wayzata, Eden Prairie, or wherever the have SIX B teams and still dominate) when you can get a better game at home?

The Edina teams don't play each other. Forget the why, just look at how it is over 212 on the stupid meter. Here, go paste some hapless district foe across town. With a 15-game league schedule and 3 more in the playoffs, that still leaves about 15 more in tournaments or outside the community - just like it is now.

[O-townClown]

I'm not sure I agree on the goalie thing. Is it better to play every game on a C team, but be bored out of your mind in goal, or play half the amount of time on a B team and be challenged by the shots you face?
OR, are you proposing that there be two goalies on every C team? That would be a terrible thing for any goalie, imo.

Lilly, I'm pretty sure Edina has two goalies rostered on each of their 12 Squirt teams. I hope one skates out at C level when they aren't between the pipes. No idea how they handle it.

If they took B in-house and had the Edina Squirt B league they could ensure that the goaltenders see more rubber. I fail to see any downside here.

[zboni99]

The in-house SQB sounds nice in theory, but I'll bet you'll find little support for it in Edina. After the in-house mites the parents are itching for travel hockey. If you want to play in tournaments then you still have to register with USA hockey. Will D6 be happy about Edina pulling SQB out? Edina just doesn't have 200 squirts every year.

[O-townClown]

The in-house SQB sounds nice in theory, but I'll bet you'll find little support for it in Edina.

I don't think there will be a unanimous acceptance, but the "little support" is not true. One of the replies above is from an Edina parent and my communication off the board with a Squirt B parent this year has included him saying, "those (intra-community) are the best games," and he mentioned their last game "was the most fun all year."

How would having Squirt B league play handled by the association to replace these D6 games render it something other than travel hockey? These teams play around 30 and could schedule friendlies and travel to tournaments just the same.

Is it a requirement that you play D6 in order to register with USA Hockey? It could be, which is why my core premise is that people shouldn't accept today's constraints. They should be working within the system to alter rules to make this possible.

Replacing Gold-level House with B Squirt hockey was not done to improve the experience for the largest associations. This may be terrific for Buffalo, Rogers, and Forest Lake because kids now have someone to play, but it is less than ideal for Edina and probably Wayzata and Eden Prairie too.

D6 has something like 30 Squirt B teams. I don't think they'd miss Edina's 6. This might be as simple as D6 having a "Crosstown" division and an "Edina" division. Would people in Bloomington and Burnsville object? I can't see why.

A little creativity can improve something that sure looks weird. 66-5-11 is the combined record of Edina's Bs against D6 opponents. And this is good why?

[spin-o-rama]

The in-house SQB sounds nice in theory, but I'll bet you'll find little support for it in Edina. After the in-house mites the parents are itching for travel hockey. If you want to play in tournaments then you still have to register with USA hockey. Will D6 be happy about Edina pulling SQB out? Edina just doesn't have 200 squirts every year.

They don't have to pull out of D6 entirely. Instead of having 1-2 inter association game and 14-15 against the rest of the district, Edina could play X inter association and Y against the rest. With X being much greater than Y. They could still play in the D6 season ending tournament.

[HockeyDadMN]

Maybe we will see a Minnesota Made Choice Squirt league next year? That would give the Edina B's a place to play that would be more competitive and shrink the EHA by a few teams.

[zboni99]

O-town, the E v. E games are fun. the old O'Conner A B tourney was fun. There are also a lot of people in Edina who don't care for the intra city games, I've heard that from more than 2 Edina parents, until their kid's team wins the game. The current squirt parents might sing a different tune after 10 E v. E league games. I'm just saying that at my son's age the parents were very excited to be leaving in-house mites for travel squirts. My opinion is from my personal experience with the parents of 93-94 kids, there would have been little support, just ask the Creekside mafia. I think the EHA president would have been all over in-house when his son was a 1st yr. SQB. Oh I forgot, his son's B team went to Fargo that year. Like I said, each age group is different, from my experience in the EHA I see little support. Fargo is the best hockey team memory by a wide margin.

[O-townClown]

I think the EHA president would have been all over in-house when his son was a 1st yr. SQB. Oh I forgot, his son's B team went to Fargo that year. Like I said, each age group is different, from my experience in the EHA I see little support. Fargo is the best hockey team memory by a wide margin.

Boni, you are pretty rigid in your thinking. Here's a proposal to consider. I've never suggested the 'travel Squirt' experience be lessened, just that some thought be given to who everyone plays. If parents are hung up on how dominant the record is they probably never played.

Dick Blooston coached my Bantam B team to a 43-3-2 record, but in that 43 are 10 wins over the other two Edina teams. We played them a lot. Today the gaudy records have little play within the community.

There are 29 teams playing Squirt B in D6 this season. It would make sense to have five divisions. Teams could play each other once or twice each within a division and then play a sequence through another division or two.

• ORR DIVISON
  
  6 Edina teams
  
  LA FLEUR DIVISION
  
  3 Chaska teams
  3 Eden Prairie teams
  
  COFFEY DIVISION
  
  4 Minnetonka teams
  2 Waconia teams
  
  DRYDEN DIVISION
  
  2 Jefferson teams
  1 Kennedy team
  3 Burnsville teams
  
  HULL DIVISION
  
  2 Eastview teams
  1 Apple Valley team
  1 Shakopee team
  1 Prior Lake team

When the NHL had 21 teams there were years when each team played the 20 others four times. It was clean on paper, but failed in two areas. Travel was problematic and rivalries didn't flourish. If you aren't ready for the Edina kids to play 10 games (of their 30 game schedule) against other Edina teams, can you at least concede that one time each so they have 5 games against intra-association opponents is better than the way it is now where these teams only had 2 or 3?

My gosh, we're talking about two runs through the six team division as being only 1/3rd of their season. No, I don't want to play Edina Green a second time, I'd rather go to Apple Valley. ???

How many districts have 29 B teams?