Comments for MN HOckey Board

[wannagototherink]

the refs get paid way to much for youth GAMES, where can a 16-19 year old make this type of money in a part time job, why does this Custom Lettering have all the contract rights for Mn Hockey , Gicve it back to the locals and help keep the costs down for everybody

I'm both a high school soccer official and baseball/softball umpire. I think it is tough to say everyone is overpaid. There certainly are some who are. I think they are under-regulated which causes the problems. To many officials associations are run like an old boys club. It makes sense, the ones who are around the longest are the ones that are more involved in discisions and involvement with their boards. The problem is, seniority doesn't always mean they are the best officials. Assigning games based on seniority or because of who you know is not the best way to get the most quality officials in the right games. There needs to be a process adopted for coaches to rate officials. The process needs fair so it would need some discussion, but a system where both coaches can answer a series of quesitons in regards to the officials and an area to add any comments about issues they had during the game. If you take note of the score, so that the criticism can be taken in the best context as possile. Also, over time, you would be able to gauge if a particular coach is always complaining and that can be taken into consideration. Ultimately, I think you would see a pattern of who the better officials are and those are the ones that should get the better games. The other thing I think it provides, is a forum for coaches to express the displeasure with the way a game is called. Than come up with a pay scale that is appropriate to level the official has attained.

Should ref's get a raise if the period lengths are longer...no, the price should be prorated, but they should not be given more money. The officials association's need to keep in mind that if they charge too much, the cost of hockey goes up and the amount of participants go down, and if that happens there are less games to work and ultimately they will lose money.

Just some thoughts.

[whockeyguy]

hey Joey you make a nice point, and to that I say Mn Hockey and their HEP has not done a d--- thing because their is suppose to be ZERO tollerence which obviously is ignored, maybe the refs can get together an claim for verbal abuse on the job and make a claim with a lawyer out here, Im sure theres got to be one that would jump at that, but still said the officiating cost is way to high for an hour of skating and it just adds needless cost,, , which brings me to why is there 3 officials for bantam games this is needless, cant they keep up anymore, getting to old and slow for the game, hardly ever see any young ones doing the bantam games so i can only think this is why

[Dull Blades]

Revenue Sharing!!!! Tax the larger associations and distribute the funds outstate to the lesser priviledged.....







Ok., ok, just kidding. Take your fingers off the reply button!

[Abe]

We need to find a place for players that do not want to play traveling hockey during the winter months. We see so many boys and girls that are required to play 4-5 times a week on teams that they are not influential on. We forget that we have skaters that play because their friend is on the team...What happened to the house team that only had one practice a week and maybe 1-2 games a week? It's ok to not skate 6 out of 7 days if your goal is to just have fun....Why can't we organize a level on both sides u12, u14 bantams.....that has teams based on players that just want to play? Why do we always have to be grooming the "next" one? It's ok if my kid plays on the house team... She'd rather have that than play on a B team and get crushed every game, and not have any fun.......we need to include all ability levels.

[theref]

the refs get paid way to much for youth GAMES, where can a 16-19 year old make this type of money in a part time job, why does this Custom Lettering have all the contract rights for Mn Hockey , Gicve it back to the locals and help keep the costs down for everybody

That's why we have so many referees right? How come your not out doing it if the money is so great? Here is a fun fact for you. 50% of USA hockey officials quit after their first year.

How is that attrition rate so high if we are all making money hand over fist?

Please sit down and read this, think about it, and then come up with a much better argument for your answer as I know the 16 year old kid working the drive through at McDonalds doesn't get called an idiot or some other awful name every day that he goes to work.

Some people just don't get it....

[theref]

the refs get paid way to much for youth GAMES, where can a 16-19 year old make this type of money in a part time job, why does this Custom Lettering have all the contract rights for Mn Hockey , Gicve it back to the locals and help keep the costs down for everybody

I'm both a high school soccer official and baseball/softball umpire. I think it is tough to say everyone is overpaid. There certainly are some who are. I think they are under-regulated which causes the problems. To many officials associations are run like an old boys club. It makes sense, the ones who are around the longest are the ones that are more involved in discisions and involvement with their boards. The problem is, seniority doesn't always mean they are the best officials. Assigning games based on seniority or because of who you know is not the best way to get the most quality officials in the right games. There needs to be a process adopted for coaches to rate officials. The process needs fair so it would need some discussion, but a system where both coaches can answer a series of quesitons in regards to the officials and an area to add any comments about issues they had during the game. If you take note of the score, so that the criticism can be taken in the best context as possile. Also, over time, you would be able to gauge if a particular coach is always complaining and that can be taken into consideration. Ultimately, I think you would see a pattern of who the better officials are and those are the ones that should get the better games. The other thing I think it provides, is a forum for coaches to express the displeasure with the way a game is called. Than come up with a pay scale that is appropriate to level the official has attained.

Should ref's get a raise if the period lengths are longer...no, the price should be prorated, but they should not be given more money. The officials association's need to keep in mind that if they charge too much, the cost of hockey goes up and the amount of participants go down, and if that happens there are less games to work and ultimately they will lose money.

Just some thoughts.

We are actually going through a pay increase in our area as we have one of the lowest paid associations anywhere in the state. We have several hockey parents on our board with kids that play and they came up with an interesting fact for us. The cost of officials is a very small fraction of what people pay for hockey each year. Therefore, while we shouldn't ask for an outrageous raise (and we don't), a raise to officials is warranted and does very little to affect the cost for parents.

As for officials getting paid more for longer games. If you are hourly and you work overtime, you get paid for it. (we don't get paid for overtime in games, we get paid for the game only. Sometimes they are shorter sometimes theres overtime) If you are salaried and you are given more responsibility the next year, you usually would get an increase in your wage. Every minute we are on the ice is time away from another job, a family, or other responsibilites. I think officials should be paid for that.

As far as paying by experience or value, if you can find enough trained evaluators and a good system to do it, I'd be fine with that. (I'm sure I'd be due a large raise ) Of course, then you have to pay for the evaluators and someone to set up and maintain the system, which would probably cost more money in the end. Plus if you screw it up and don't pay the better officials enough, many would walk away as most of us have other jobs and then Minnesota hockey would be left with a large amount of less expierenced officials whom you wouldn't want reffing the Bantam A state tournament.

[elliott70]

the refs get paid way to much for youth GAMES, where can a 16-19 year old make this type of money in a part time job, why does this Custom Lettering have all the contract rights for Mn Hockey , Gicve it back to the locals and help keep the costs down for everybody

I'm both a high school soccer official and baseball/softball umpire. I think it is tough to say everyone is overpaid. There certainly are some who are. I think they are under-regulated which causes the problems. To many officials associations are run like an old boys club. It makes sense, the ones who are around the longest are the ones that are more involved in discisions and involvement with their boards. The problem is, seniority doesn't always mean they are the best officials. Assigning games based on seniority or because of who you know is not the best way to get the most quality officials in the right games. There needs to be a process adopted for coaches to rate officials. The process needs fair so it would need some discussion, but a system where both coaches can answer a series of quesitons in regards to the officials and an area to add any comments about issues they had during the game. If you take note of the score, so that the criticism can be taken in the best context as possile. Also, over time, you would be able to gauge if a particular coach is always complaining and that can be taken into consideration. Ultimately, I think you would see a pattern of who the better officials are and those are the ones that should get the better games. The other thing I think it provides, is a forum for coaches to express the displeasure with the way a game is called. Than come up with a pay scale that is appropriate to level the official has attained.

Should ref's get a raise if the period lengths are longer...no, the price should be prorated, but they should not be given more money. The officials association's need to keep in mind that if they charge too much, the cost of hockey goes up and the amount of participants go down, and if that happens there are less games to work and ultimately they will lose money.

Just some thoughts.

We are actually going through a pay increase in our area as we have one of the lowest paid associations anywhere in the state. We have several hockey parents on our board with kids that play and they came up with an interesting fact for us. The cost of officials is a very small fraction of what people pay for hockey each year. Therefore, while we shouldn't ask for an outrageous raise (and we don't), a raise to officials is warranted and does very little to affect the cost for parents.

As for officials getting paid more for longer games. If you are hourly and you work overtime, you get paid for it. (we don't get paid for overtime in games, we get paid for the game only. Sometimes they are shorter sometimes theres overtime) If you are salaried and you are given more responsibility the next year, you usually would get an increase in your wage. Every minute we are on the ice is time away from another job, a family, or other responsibilites. I think officials should be paid for that.

As far as paying by experience or value, if you can find enough trained evaluators and a good system to do it, I'd be fine with that. (I'm sure I'd be due a large raise ) Of course, then you have to pay for the evaluators and someone to set up and maintain the system, which would probably cost more money in the end. Plus if you screw it up and don't pay the better officials enough, many would walk away as most of us have other jobs and then Minnesota hockey would be left with a large amount of less expierenced officials whom you wouldn't want reffing the Bantam A state tournament.

I always felt that officials should pay for the ice or a tleast a prortion of it.

Hey, they get to skate for free!!!!

[theref]

I'm both a high school soccer official and baseball/softball umpire. I think it is tough to say everyone is overpaid. There certainly are some who are. I think they are under-regulated which causes the problems. To many officials associations are run like an old boys club. It makes sense, the ones who are around the longest are the ones that are more involved in discisions and involvement with their boards. The problem is, seniority doesn't always mean they are the best officials. Assigning games based on seniority or because of who you know is not the best way to get the most quality officials in the right games. There needs to be a process adopted for coaches to rate officials. The process needs fair so it would need some discussion, but a system where both coaches can answer a series of quesitons in regards to the officials and an area to add any comments about issues they had during the game. If you take note of the score, so that the criticism can be taken in the best context as possile. Also, over time, you would be able to gauge if a particular coach is always complaining and that can be taken into consideration. Ultimately, I think you would see a pattern of who the better officials are and those are the ones that should get the better games. The other thing I think it provides, is a forum for coaches to express the displeasure with the way a game is called. Than come up with a pay scale that is appropriate to level the official has attained.

Should ref's get a raise if the period lengths are longer...no, the price should be prorated, but they should not be given more money. The officials association's need to keep in mind that if they charge too much, the cost of hockey goes up and the amount of participants go down, and if that happens there are less games to work and ultimately they will lose money.

Just some thoughts.

We are actually going through a pay increase in our area as we have one of the lowest paid associations anywhere in the state. We have several hockey parents on our board with kids that play and they came up with an interesting fact for us. The cost of officials is a very small fraction of what people pay for hockey each year. Therefore, while we shouldn't ask for an outrageous raise (and we don't), a raise to officials is warranted and does very little to affect the cost for parents.

As for officials getting paid more for longer games. If you are hourly and you work overtime, you get paid for it. (we don't get paid for overtime in games, we get paid for the game only. Sometimes they are shorter sometimes theres overtime) If you are salaried and you are given more responsibility the next year, you usually would get an increase in your wage. Every minute we are on the ice is time away from another job, a family, or other responsibilites. I think officials should be paid for that.

As far as paying by experience or value, if you can find enough trained evaluators and a good system to do it, I'd be fine with that. (I'm sure I'd be due a large raise ) Of course, then you have to pay for the evaluators and someone to set up and maintain the system, which would probably cost more money in the end. Plus if you screw it up and don't pay the better officials enough, many would walk away as most of us have other jobs and then Minnesota hockey would be left with a large amount of less expierenced officials whom you wouldn't want reffing the Bantam A state tournament.

I always felt that officials should pay for the ice or a tleast a prortion of it.

Hey, they get to skate for free!!!!

With me being on the ice at least 4 nights a week, reffing would hardly be worth it anymore. If I have to pay for the ice I work on, how am I going to support the drinking habit that reffing causes!

[DMom]

my husband has so much fun coaching that they have decided to split the ice bill 18 ways now!! and now he wants the same stick his sons have.....

[h20]

to theref maybe the dropout rate is so high because the official associations dont schedule the newbies enough , All the old cronies get scheduled even for squirt games, for you to say its because of pay is absurb,

[wannagototherink]

Elliott,

Well now that we've all given our input, and the meetings have happened, what went on in the meetings? Did any of the concerns brought up on this forum get addressed or even discussed? Would love an update.

[goldy313]

to theref maybe the dropout rate is so high because the official associations dont schedule the newbies enough , All the old cronies get scheduled even for squirt games, for you to say its because of pay is absurb,

Then you don't ref. I did hockey for many years, I quit youth because I took more abuse at a squirt game than I ever did at a high school game. Never in 10+ years of doing high school has a parent ever came into the refs room, attacked a ref on the way to said room, or waited outside the rink for me to leave. Ref a youth tournament and that happens to someone nearly every tournament. If someone did that to a kid leaving his job at a grocery store the police would be called and the adult arrested, when it happens at the rink you just hope nothing more than words are exchanged. I'man adult and you couldn't pay me enough to get back into doing youth games.

[elliott70]

Elliott,

Well now that we've all given our input, and the meetings have happened, what went on in the meetings? Did any of the concerns brought up on this forum get addressed or even discussed? Would love an update.

Not a whole lot got discussed by the time we got to this committee...
So another meeting will be held for the steering group, which for me sux as I have another drive to the cities. It like Big Ben, the cogs turn slowly behind the face of te clock.

But all will have this stuff in hand plus some old stuff I have that I hope they read.

Not much of an update, but what we went through was not that exciting, but I guess it was necessary.

[tomASS]

It like Big Ben, the cogs turn slowly behind the face of the clock.

time to get an Intel duel processing chip

[elliott70]

It like Big Ben, the cogs turn slowly behind the face of the clock.

time to get an Intel duel processing chip

Time to start kicking some a**!

[elliott70]

It like Big Ben, the cogs turn slowly behind the face of the clock.

time to get an Intel duel processing chip

Time to start kicking some a**!

Sorry Thomas, just not happy about it.

I'm the kind of guy that likes to roll up his sleeves, get dirty, grind it out, put the time in and get some solutions. Evaluate them and try something else if they are not good. I just don't do systems for the sake of systems sake.
I am trying to

[tomASS]

It like Big Ben, the cogs turn slowly behind the face of the clock.

time to get an Intel duel processing chip

Time to start kicking some a**!

I would love to help, just to get the blood flowing again

[goldy313]

Can you at least promise us a rebate check in the meantime?

[theref]

to theref maybe the dropout rate is so high because the official associations dont schedule the newbies enough , All the old cronies get scheduled even for squirt games, for you to say its because of pay is absurb,

Guess I can only speak for our association, which not only schedules new refs, but also pairs them with mentors throughout the season. As for the pay thing. It's one thing to earn $6 an hour bagging groceries compared to taking $20 for an hour and a half to get yelled at by disrespectful parents and mouthy little kids. Trust me, when you deal with that, you'll understand why we are probably never paid enough. I think Goldy nailed it pretty much on the head

[RLStars]

to theref maybe the dropout rate is so high because the official associations dont schedule the newbies enough , All the old cronies get scheduled even for squirt games, for you to say its because of pay is absurb,

The dropout rate is mainly due to the abuse that is given to an official by supposed hockey fans and coaches before during and after a game.

A couple years ago, before there was any officials associations in the area, we had an officla that was a former HS player. He was a very good skater and a top player for our team and was also a youth hockey official. When I coached, I knew that I would get a good game called from him everytime he was working my game. He was always right with the play and was unbiased.

A parent from a lower level team of ours was apparently unhappy with the outcome of a game and decided to take it up with the offical in the parking lot after the game. As far as I know, nothing physical came from it, but it was heated. That young offical never worked another game. He worked alot of games because he was a good offical and the money was NOT enough to keep him reffing.

I think the officals association my son is involved in does a good job of scheduling all its officials. My sons first years as an offical, he got enough games with experienced offical to cover all his costs (registration fees, jersey, whistle etc.).

[RLStars]

hey Joey you make a nice point, and to that I say Mn Hockey and their HEP has not done a d--- thing because their is suppose to be ZERO tollerence which obviously is ignored, maybe the refs can get together an claim for verbal abuse on the job and make a claim with a lawyer out here, Im sure theres got to be one that would jump at that, but still said the officiating cost is way to high for an hour of skating and it just adds needless cost,, , which brings me to why is there 3 officials for bantam games this is needless, cant they keep up anymore, getting to old and slow for the game, hardly ever see any young ones doing the bantam games so i can only think this is why

My question is why do we use the one referee, two linesmen system instead of the two referee, one linesmen system. Every other youth games has two officals with equal responsibilities and powers to keep track of the play around AND away from the puck during the game.

Then when you get to the fastest youth hockey games that we have in MN, we stick two people out there who are responsible for off sides and counting how many players are on the ice. One referee is asked to monitor ALL the players around and away from the puck.

Only a very small number of parents and fans out there in Bantam A land understand that although there are three officials on the ice, only one has the power to call a penalty. The other two Linesmen can not stop play for a penalty, they can only inform the referee of any bench minor, major, match miscondust, game misconduct or potential for injury penalties they observe at the next stoppage of play. We then wonder why there is so many complaints from coaches and parents about the officiating at the Bantam A level. I don't think we need two people on the ice to cover 50 feet of the nuetral zone and drop the puck on the face-offs.

Is it to save money? It wouls only cost a couple dollars a game to have two referees and one linesmen per game. Do we have too few level three officals to cover the games?

[theref]

hey Joey you make a nice point, and to that I say Mn Hockey and their HEP has not done a d--- thing because their is suppose to be ZERO tollerence which obviously is ignored, maybe the refs can get together an claim for verbal abuse on the job and make a claim with a lawyer out here, Im sure theres got to be one that would jump at that, but still said the officiating cost is way to high for an hour of skating and it just adds needless cost,, , which brings me to why is there 3 officials for bantam games this is needless, cant they keep up anymore, getting to old and slow for the game, hardly ever see any young ones doing the bantam games so i can only think this is why

My question is why do we use the one referee, two linesmen system instead of the two referee, one linesmen system. Every other youth games has two officals with equal responsibilities and powers to keep track of the play around AND away from the puck during the game.

Then when you get to the fastest youth hockey games that we have in MN, we stick two people out there who are responsible for off sides and counting how many players are on the ice. One referee is asked to monitor ALL the players around and away from the puck.

Only a very small number of parents and fans out there in Bantam A land understand that although there are three officials on the ice, only one has the power to call a penalty. The other two Linesmen can not stop play for a penalty, they can only inform the referee of any bench minor, major, match miscondust, game misconduct or potential for injury penalties they observe at the next stoppage of play. We then wonder why there is so many complaints from coaches and parents about the officiating at the Bantam A level. I don't think we need two people on the ice to cover 50 feet of the nuetral zone and drop the puck on the face-offs.

Is it to save money? It wouls only cost a couple dollars a game to have two referees and one linesmen per game. Do we have too few level three officals to cover the games?

In my opinion, I believe that the one referee two linesmen system was developed for two reasons. One reason is that it forced only the better skating, in shape officials to the top as they are they only ones that are able to skate it. The second reason (in my opinion) is that USA hockey fought with inconsitencies in penalty calling. With 2 referees, a penalty at one end might not be the same at the other. While this might be fine for a peewee game, Bantam A games tend to be of more importance (not in my opinion) and therefore, a consitency in penalties is desired.

However, with the new standard of play, many systems are now moving to the 2-2 system (Division 1 and 3 are looking into it and the NHL already has it). While this is not logical for youth hockey, the 2 referee and 1 linesman system may be. The only reason that High School JV is done 2 man is because of the overall cost as high schools also have to pay mileage whereas most youth associations do not. I can tell you first hand that it is very hard to do because the players are quicker and it gets tough to cover a line while also trying to get into the zone to follow play. Penalites still get missed because of the speed of the game even with two referees and no linesman. This would also be the case for Bantam A. (I have worked Bantam A two man as well, the system does not work as well as three-man with one referee)

Hope that helps in your understanding of the 1-2, 2-1, and 2 man systems and why they are used.

[h20]

why not go back to Just two refs , has the pace of game changed over the years so it is to fast for two to keep up , or have the bodies changed in the ones in control that still THINK they can do the higher level, this would save the expense of one official, and from what all you say , that official could be used alsewhere since you claim such a shortage of officials, or is it just double talk

[elliott70]

PLEASE USE THE NEW THREAD TO ADD ANY COMMENTS YU WISH TO BE PASSED ON TO THE MINNESOTA HOCKEY BOARD.

THESE COMMENTS HAVE BEEN GIVEN TO THE BOARD.

FURTHER COMMENTS HERE WILL NOT BE PASSED ON JUST BECAUSE IT IS EASIER FOR ME.

THANK YOU!

Mark Elliott

[inthestands]

why not go back to Just two refs , has the pace of game changed over the years so it is to fast for two to keep up , or have the bodies changed in the ones in control that still THINK they can do the higher level, this would save the expense of one official, and from what all you say , that official could be used alsewhere since you claim such a shortage of officials, or is it just double talk

Many of the reasons have been stated in this thread already, but I didn't see this one.

There are tons of complaints about consistency in officiating. At the youth level, there aren't enough people with abilities to "ref" bantam A games especially on the outlying areas. The younger guys don't have the experience, and a lot of the older group have either quit or gone to high school only. The officials associations that are popping up have helped get the younger officials mentored, and paired up with the right helpers.

For anyone that thinks the older refs are "hogging" all the younger level games, you are so far off base it's not worth commenting on.

If youth 3 person systems are used with one ref, it's for consistent penalty calling and lack of experienced numbers. You could go with a two person system, but then penalties are called different by each person. Kind of a double edged sword.

I don't know of a high school that pays mileage to officials. None of the people I know reffing high school get mileage. Most associations I have seen try to have all three officials there for the JV game as well. There may be some that don't but they are short changing the school if it's for the money. Many times the third person may not be able to make the early game for one reason or another.

Sorry, forgot one thing.. If the money is so great in officiating youth hockey, why aren't more kids getting involved?