"2-for-4, what's the score?" mindset in eyes of a

[O-townClown]

My son's birthday party was this weekend and a guy was over that I hadn't met before. His daughter just started at their school in December.

He played baseball, reached the Majors for a month - only MLB homer in the Metrodome, and now manages an A affiliate. He described a phenomenon he called, "2-for-4, what's the score?" Kids play so much baseball in showcase events considered 'development' that they don't feel like part of a team. Outcomes for those games doesn't matter as much as what you do. Sounds familiar as basketball works the same way.

Hockey is beginning to move in that direction. One safeguard for hockey is that players are more reliant on each other during the game than a situational sport like baseball. I don't see a problem with summer all-star teams. Looking at his comment, I must say the Fire program at least offers meaningful games against high-level competition. Maybe hockey will be spared this mindset due to the nature of the sport.

One thing I sense is this - the farther people have to travel to get to regularly-scheduled practices the less of a 'team' atmosphere you will have. (My reference point is extreme. I'm talking hours to get to practices or even a plane ride. In this context White Bear Lake to Minnesota Made isn't very far.)

Wondering if anyone has thoughts on whether or not this mindset will take over hockey in places. Seems like rules and other things help prevent it.

[MoreCowBell]

One thing I know the Fire do to offset longer travel to practice sites is they have 1-1/2 to 2 hr. practices and just meet as a team less often. A side benefit of this is time to go rinkrat, go watch the Wild Gophers or other teams and also hit the books without interuption.

[elliott70]

My son's birthday party was this weekend and a guy was over that I hadn't met before. His daughter just started at their school in December.

He played baseball, reached the Majors for a month - only MLB homer in the Metrodome, and now manages an A affiliate. He described a phenomenon he called, "2-for-4, what's the score?" Kids play so much baseball in showcase events considered 'development' that they don't feel like part of a team. Outcomes for those games doesn't matter as much as what you do. Sounds familiar as basketball works the same way.

Hockey is beginning to move in that direction. One safeguard for hockey is that players are more reliant on each other during the game than a situational sport like baseball. I don't see a problem with summer all-star teams. Looking at his comment, I must say the Fire program at least offers meaningful games against high-level competition. Maybe hockey will be spared this mindset due to the nature of the sport.

One thing I sense is this - the farther people have to travel to get to regularly-scheduled practices the less of a 'team' atmosphere you will have. (My reference point is extreme. I'm talking hours to get to practices or even a plane ride. In this context White Bear Lake to Minnesota Made isn't very far.)

Wondering if anyone has thoughts on whether or not this mindset will take over hockey in places. Seems like rules and other things help prevent it.

Okposo leaving the Gophers is an example where the mind set is already there. HS kids to juniors - giving up HS friends/team for individual development and exposure.
It seems to some degree that mindset is already here.

And, in my opinion, is a negative to develpment.
I stress to anyone that will listen including those forced to do so, the number one player development skill to develop is 'team winning'. Doing the little things to help your team, no matter what the sport, is what makes you a player.
Leading the league in goals while your team struggles to win a game does not necessarily make you a 'good' player. 5th in total points and a strong positive plus/minus while your team is contending for league leadership makes you a much better player.

[O-townClown]

Elliott, great point. Okposo leaving the Gophers is exactly what he was talking about. In the Minor Leagues he finds his staff having to teach players how to place team results over individual accomplishments.

Is there just coincidence here that Okposo is one of the early Minnesota Made kids?

You make a great point.

[theref]

My son's birthday party was this weekend and a guy was over that I hadn't met before. His daughter just started at their school in December.

He played baseball, reached the Majors for a month - only MLB homer in the Metrodome, and now manages an A affiliate. He described a phenomenon he called, "2-for-4, what's the score?" Kids play so much baseball in showcase events considered 'development' that they don't feel like part of a team. Outcomes for those games doesn't matter as much as what you do. Sounds familiar as basketball works the same way.

Hockey is beginning to move in that direction. One safeguard for hockey is that players are more reliant on each other during the game than a situational sport like baseball. I don't see a problem with summer all-star teams. Looking at his comment, I must say the Fire program at least offers meaningful games against high-level competition. Maybe hockey will be spared this mindset due to the nature of the sport.

One thing I sense is this - the farther people have to travel to get to regularly-scheduled practices the less of a 'team' atmosphere you will have. (My reference point is extreme. I'm talking hours to get to practices or even a plane ride. In this context White Bear Lake to Minnesota Made isn't very far.)

Wondering if anyone has thoughts on whether or not this mindset will take over hockey in places. Seems like rules and other things help prevent it.

Okposo leaving the Gophers is an example where the mind set is already there. HS kids to juniors - giving up HS friends/team for individual development and exposure.
It seems to some degree that mindset is already here.

And, in my opinion, is a negative to develpment.
I stress to anyone that will listen including those forced to do so, the number one player development skill to develop is 'team winning'. Doing the little things to help your team, no matter what the sport, is what makes you a player.
Leading the league in goals while your team struggles to win a game does not necessarily make you a 'good' player. 5th in total points and a strong positive plus/minus while your team is contending for league leadership makes you a much better player.

Not only that, but how about this theory. If players never feel that they are part of a team and continue to strive for personal goals instead of team achievments, where would it end? By the time they get to the professional level, we'd just have a bunch of primadonnas running around looking out only for themselves (ex. the NBA, with some exceptions) and team sports would basically fold.

Haha, obviously it hasn't gotten to that point, but it is something to think about.

[boardmember]

Is there just coincidence here that Okposo is one of the early Minnesota Made kids?

Clown,

Only you can tie a college players decision to leave a program early to Minnesota Made. The Minnesota Made Conspiracy!

Like Okposo is the only high draft choice, hockey (or any sport for that matter) that left college early to go pro.

It must be a Minnesota Made conspiracy that Kessel left.....No wait he played a few tourneys with the Blades.....Not Minnesota Made! That must be a Blades Conspiracy!

When Neal Broten left college early that must have been Minnesota Made's fault too! or was that an Olympic Conspiracy?

[O-townClown]

Only you can tie a college players decision to leave a program early to Minnesota Made. The Minnesota Made Conspiracy!

Like Okposo is the only high draft choice, hockey (or any sport for that matter) that left college early to go pro.

It must be a Minnesota Made conspiracy that Kessel left.....No wait he played a few tourneys with the Blades.....Not Minnesota Made! That must be a Blades Conspiracy!

When Neal Broten left college early that must have been Minnesota Made's fault too! or was that an Olympic Conspiracy?

Not only me. Others have been similarly skeptical of the motivation of the program. While you are bashing me, at least tell the whole story about how I'm on record for seeing nothing wrong with what they are doing - so much so in fact that I've said my son could be part of the Mite Choice program if he wanted (assuming we lived closer and that Keith Jungels would have me).

Which time are you talking about with Neal Broten? He left college twice. First to play for the 1980 Olympic team and then again after the '80-'81 season (three years out of HS, two years of eligibility used) to go to the NHL. (Going off of memory here. I could be off.)

Doesn't matter, since neither approximates the Okposo situation. In both cases, Broten left because he had something better to do than play college hockey. I don't think the same can be said for playing in the AHL. Admittedly, I don't know if there is a financial consideration forcing Kyle's hand.

The important part to remember, I feel, for anyone getting involved in the programs of Minnesota Made is to recognize it for what it is. Good and bad, pro and con, plus and minus.

NHL teams have asked certain players to leave the U and develop elsewhere. Are kids stepping up and saying, "no thanks, I want to play here now."? I don't know. Doubtful. I don't blame them, but you can see that playing WHL hockey over WCHA isn't superior once you've already been drafted.

[hockeyparent11]

Is there just coincidence here that Okposo is one of the early Minnesota Made kids?

Bernie does encourage the me-over-team attitude because he believes the internal competition helps individual development. He tells young players on his teams that they are competing against each other for a limited number of spots at higher levels. Just ask him.

That said, Bernie is not responsible for Okposo's hockey development or his personal development. He was Kyle's summer coach in 2000 and 2001. MM should get no serious credit or blame for any success or lack thereof that the talented Mr. Okposo has.

BTW-Broten, Kessel and many others left college with eligibilty remaining, but none of them walked away from their team in mid-season.

[elliott70]

I have no problem with the 'McBain way'.


As long it is tempered with the ideology that 'you play as a team, you win as a team'. The whole is better (and more important) than the parts.

What I have a huge problem with is the idea that your future is more important than your now.

The idea that we have to develop as mites so we can be squirt A's, then of cousre, its pee-wee, then bantams, and of course everything we are doing is to be HS varsity players, only to leave after 11th grade to pay juniors becaus I have to earn a D1 scholarship. At what point do you enjoy the season.

Playing just to play, just giving 100% effort for the team to win, this game, this year...
Yes, we all need to plan for our futures, but if we don't live right now, what good is a future without memories. What better memories than being with family and friends.

There are things you give up that you can never get back. I would hope childhood is not being given up for some of these kids.

[boardmember]

Only you can tie a college players decision to leave a program early to Minnesota Made. The Minnesota Made Conspiracy!

Like Okposo is the only high draft choice, hockey (or any sport for that matter) that left college early to go pro.

It must be a Minnesota Made conspiracy that Kessel left.....No wait he played a few tourneys with the Blades.....Not Minnesota Made! That must be a Blades Conspiracy!

When Neal Broten left college early that must have been Minnesota Made's fault too! or was that an Olympic Conspiracy?

Not only me. Others have been similarly skeptical of the motivation of the program. While you are bashing me, at least tell the whole story about how I'm on record for seeing nothing wrong with what they are doing - so much so in fact that I've said my son could be part of the Mite Choice program if he wanted (assuming we lived closer and that Keith Jungels would have me).

Which time are you talking about with Neal Broten? He left college twice. First to play for the 1980 Olympic team and then again after the '80-'81 season (three years out of HS, two years of eligibility used) to go to the NHL. (Going off of memory here. I could be off.)

Doesn't matter, since neither approximates the Okposo situation. In both cases, Broten left because he had something better to do than play college hockey. I don't think the same can be said for playing in the AHL. Admittedly, I don't know if there is a financial consideration forcing Kyle's hand.

The important part to remember, I feel, for anyone getting involved in the programs of Minnesota Made is to recognize it for what it is. Good and bad, pro and con, plus and minus.

NHL teams have asked certain players to leave the U and develop elsewhere. Are kids stepping up and saying, "no thanks, I want to play here now."? I don't know. Doubtful. I don't blame them, but you can see that playing WHL hockey over WCHA isn't superior once you've already been drafted.

Clown,

Its ridiculous to even try to tie Okposo's decision to leave the U of M to Minnesota Made because he had skated there in his youth! You posted that statement not me. I just called you on it! That statement has nothing to do with your original post topic.

I understand your from Edina and still have ties to the "gang" from Edina. Your many posts suggest that your passionate about hockey, maybe wishing to be living in Edina watching your son play in that program now. I would bet that if you were living in Mn (In Edina) you would involved at MM!

You speak of " skeptical of the motivation of the program" MM like any hockey business in the metro area is about

1. Money
2. Player development (Minnesota Made Clinics put out a good product)
3. Repeat business ( Again Money)
4. Building a strong AAA program ( Machine, Duece success attracts clients)

What do you think Showcase is about?? Are you "skeptical of the motivation of their program"

Your posts are good ,thoughtful, well written and you have alot of insight into youth sports. but all too often your posts tie to MM. Look at what you posted again today... "Name the next MM teams"

[sorno82]

There is too much discussion on MM and their ways. They have a great product and have shown that they are more than capable of improving a players skill if the player is willing to work. He is building a business and he would not be successful if his product was not in demand. I heard the facility costs might be hurting him, but he has to deal with it like any other business does.

I subscribe to what Elliot70 said earlier. Let the kids have fun in the moment, and the rest will take care of itself. If the parent's goal is college sports and beyond, well we all know what the chances are. Though people buy lottery tickets every day knowing the odds, but feeling they may have the winner.

Showcase AAA is a good comparison. They have a bunch of teams with different names that anyone can be on if their dad wants to organize the effort. MM has a much better product with a comparable per hour cost.

Very few kids from our association go to MM, but we are still have top of the line Squirt, PeeWee, and Bantam teams. There are many ways for kids to develop; but let them have fun first, enjoy the ride, cherish the memories, and let the destination take care of itself. I would much rather have my kid playing in a beer league as an adult having a blast than having a Todd Marinovich roaming the streets.

[O-townClown]

Clown,

Its ridiculous to even try to tie Okposo's decision to leave the U of M to Minnesota Made because he had skated there in his youth! You posted that statement not me. I just called you on it! That statement has nothing to do with your original post topic.

I understand your from Edina and still have ties to the "gang" from Edina. Your many posts suggest that your passionate about hockey, maybe wishing to be living in Edina watching your son play in that program now. I would bet that if you were living in Mn (In Edina) you would involved at MM!

You speak of " skeptical of the motivation of the program" MM like any hockey business in the metro area is about

1. Money
2. Player development (Minnesota Made Clinics put out a good product)
3. Repeat business ( Again Money)
4. Building a strong AAA program ( Machine, Duece success attracts clients)

What do you think Showcase is about?? Are you "skeptical of the motivation of their program"

Your posts are good ,thoughtful, well written and you have alot of insight into youth sports. but all too often your posts tie to MM. Look at what you posted again today... "Name the next MM teams"

1- I didn't mention Okposo first. Another did.
2- I have mentioned that I'd allow my son to play in the Minnesota Made Mite Choice program if he wanted to (he would) and they'd have him (don't know). The big point to make clear is that I'd know what he is getting into.
3- I am skeptical of the motivation of anyone participating in programs that they believe are magical producers of hockey players. I didn't come up with the Minnesota Made tag that "great hockey players aren't born, they're MADE!" There is more too it than that.
4- If you can't find humor in 27's post about a potential name for a girls team you might be missing a chromosome. Tasteless, perhaps. But funny. I just expanded on it in the interest of levity. Dude, THEY named a team the Grinders. Hard not to make jokes about it.

I suspect you and I agree far more than you think. When there's a hole you assume things that weave a tale so you can continue to believe we are apart in our view. I don't think that's the case.

Good news for me - my son really likes playing, he can play as much or as little as he wants, it is possible to play where we live, and I am certain he won't be a college scholarship player in 12 years so his participation really will be just for enjoyment.

[spin-o-rama]

The Okposo theory takes us back to the original question. Is hockey starting to see kids with the "2-4, what's the score" mentality? Is it only on AAA teams? How big a problem is it on Association teams that might only have 1 to a handful of AAA kids? Are AAA primadonnas contributing to poor team chemistry? Is it a kid problem, parent problem, or both?

After watching the Edina PWA team (once) and Squirt A team (twice), I would say they don't have that problem. They really played like a team. Maybe there is more behind the scenes. What are other's observations?

Elliott has an excellent point of enjoying playing this year. You have fun now and it will not hamper the future. Giving 100% effort for current team success is a great formula for future success.

[boardmember]

1- I didn't mention Okposo first. Another did.
2- I have mentioned that I'd allow my son to play in the Minnesota Made Mite Choice program if he wanted to (he would) and they'd have him (don't know). The big point to make clear is that I'd know what he is getting into.
3- I am skeptical of the motivation of anyone participating in programs that they believe are magical producers of hockey players. I didn't come up with the Minnesota Made tag that "great hockey players aren't born, they're MADE!" There is more too it than that.
4- If you can't find humor in 27's post about a potential name for a girls team you might be missing a chromosome. Tasteless, perhaps. But funny. I just expanded on it in the interest of levity. Dude, THEY named a team the Grinders. Hard not to make jokes about it.

I suspect you and I agree far more than you think. When there's a hole you assume things that weave a tale so you can continue to believe we are apart in our view. I don't think that's the case.

Good news for me - my son really likes playing, he can play as much or as little as he wants, it is possible to play where we live, and I am certain he won't be a college scholarship player in 12 years so his participation really will be just for enjoyment.

Clown,

This will be my last post on this topic. When you reply you will have the last word.


Most adults know when to pick their battles. I called you on a statement you made. Rather than eat a little "humble pie" you choose to fight back and even point blame elsewhere ( to Elliott) for first mentioning Okposos name. Your unwillingness to retract your statement leads me to believe that you believe there is merit in your statement/position! This is the case!...I can not debate this anymore with you.

Dude! MM is a hockey school/camp business. In business for 15 years...Why are you concerened with the psyche on the "slogan" Now your going way to deep!

Dude! I liked the Snapper humor. I'm kinda jealous I did not post it first!

Dude! There are hundreds of Hockey camps and schools in Minnesota that make claims about their products.....Its called Marketing.....Example.. Peak Preformance Hockey camp "Take your game to the next level" slogan along with Phil Kessel's name on the Home page as an alumni!
Herb Brooks " Minnesota Miracle Elite Training Program" Slogan " Acheive your dreams" "Our training will take your skills to the next level" all those slogans lead me to believe that they will MAKE ( thus MADE) my skills better at their camps!

Dude! Yes we may agree on alot more items then we disagree.

Peace

[watchdog]

this whole subject is what ive said a hundred times!!!! triple A is all about the individual. i tell my sons all the time what he plays for and who he represants as a team member. to me if your missing that part of hockey your missing all of it. its all about friends (TEAM) and pride in community. if we take that away we wouldnt have a message board. we wouldnt be talking about whos gona win this game or that who would care? nobody gives two craps if the machine wins the meltdown. people take away all thats important because they think their child is getting a better opportunity through these channels buts its all a mirage. by the time you figure that out its to late your child has missed out on what really counts in the end. weve all heard the saying that your playing for the name on the front of the jersey not the one on the back. those arent just words thats real its called pride its essential for kids to have! i want my kids to be the best they possible can im as phyco as the next guy (maybe) but in the mist of the insanity you have to see logic. if you step back and look at the picture its clear. i dont hate mm but i think its very miss leading. i know people arent getting what they think is best for their kid. if the kids are having fun (really) than no harm done i suppose. just remember these kids arent machines and their not better than the best out their. your pulling in kids from top programs kids that are already good and putting them on one team and practicing and its mm that did this? if its all that take a team of 4th liners and do it. it wont happen. rather than just reading these words do me a favor for all those involved. this summer during the meltdown invite watch the 95 islander team. yeah the machine might beat them by a couple goals thats not my point. my point is that team is just a bunch of kids getting together to have alittle fun they dont even practice in the summer not one time!!!!!!! we show up on friday play the tourney and go home to baseball and golf. are they lossing out not hardley. my point is all that work and no play isnt making a hockey player. if that was so you should be beating that team by 10 goals hell 3/4 of the kids have been off the ice for two months before the melt down starts. think about that when your watching the games maybe than youll see my point. its just not that hard to figure out.

[egf hockey1]

Watchdog, wow, that was quite a rant. Although you pretty much nailed it on the head. I am agreeing with you more and more all the time, it's kind of scaring me

[GR3343]

Watchdog, wow, that was quite a rant. Although you pretty much nailed it on the head. I am agreeing with you more and more all the time, it's kind of scaring me

Spooky, now if we could only teach him how to spell.

[watchdog]

yes i have the tendency to do that once in ahwile. my spelling well im affraid thats never going to improve. i dont care i just write what i want to say and i do it quickly!!!

[GR3343]

yes i have the tendency to do that once in ahwile. my spelling well im affraid thats never going to improve. i dont care i just write what i want to say and i do it quickly!!!

I know, just messing with you. Say hi to the boys for me.