Too much too soon & Tier 1

[sorno82]

Double topic to discuss:

This has been discussed in the past, but it might be worth discussing with some facts. Are kids today doing too much too soon? I have read a lot on this subject about the dangers of early specialization and how that can lower the ceiling on a kids potential. But even worse is the burn out factor where kids have had enough at age 13 and drop out of sports all together. The data I have seen is that among kids that show expertise in an activity before puberty, only about 25% maintain that relative level of expertise at 18. The danger is having a kid peak as a peewee, then drop out since they are still not one of the best or are just sick of it.

I also read last year in the STRIB that only about 25% of squirt A players actually play high school varsity hockey. That data, if true, correlates some what with the earlier data on early vs. late expertise.

For those that have seen it all (i.e. kids in High school or higher), does the above observation pan out, or do the " A" players stay "A" players (legitimately). Do a lot of kids that have passion for the sport as a squirt, lose it before they hit high school? Are we wasting our summers with summer hockey by spending copious amounts of money and time, only to see the kid burn out?


On Tier 1, do you think the reason it has not taken hold here is that there isn't a need? Meaning the alternatives offered here in Minnesota make the business proposition of creating year round Tier 1 program not very good? If there is not an unmet need, then why do it?

Enquiring minds want to know.

[tomASS]

sorno82 -

I would say from a macro perspective, regarding your first question, that those numbers look fairly accurate from a sense of what I have seen and believe to occur.

We will get back into the same debate in some previous posts but the kid has to want to do it. He/she has to have a love for the game.

Secondly, physical attributes do play into this also. The best athletes in mites and squirts are not always the best athletes when they get to HS. Over training does create a burnout affect in some kids. It becomes a chore instead of being fun.

Every kid matures physically and mentally at a different rate. I know some kids who were just awesome at the mite and squirt level now being very disappointed that they can't even get a sniff at varsity. They still have some great skill sets, but they do not have the size and speed they once did against the opposition to compete.

I also know a Squirt and Pee Wee C player who is now a very good player and captain of his HS team. So many parents think that once a kid is an "A" player that they will always be an "A" player and are shocked when their kid starts getting passed up and drops a level or two while a C player suddenly blossoms and passes their former "A" player.


I have never disagreed with the fact that everyone should choose what is best for their own kid. Give them the support in the direction they want to pursue, just stop trying to sell us old-timers on the fact that something is the be all and end all.

If all the ingredients exist in a kid, the cream will find a way to rise to the top. Be proud of your kid at Mite and Squirt, but it's just too early to get too excited about anything besides watching your kid enjoy the game. If you do anything more than that, you are missing a lot

I can't answer your second question but do believe in a market economy so your point has substance with me

[spin-o-rama]

Sorno82,
I am just going to address your first point.

This is a good concern. Kids doing more at younger ages is a growing trend that is not going away. It is not necessarily a bad thing.

The base goal should be to have fun. There is nothing wrong with a goal to make the A team or HS team. However, the road to get there needs to be fun, not just the destination.

I want my kids to play hockey. It is fun for me to play with them and watch them play. So far, they love it. However, I know I will still have a blast helping them and watching them play/do another activity. If their interests switch I will be just fine because my base interest is in them.

RE:

The data I have seen is that among kids that show expertise in an activity before puberty, only about 25% maintain that relative level of expertise at 18.

That kind of info should help people keep things in perspective. I am more concerned with 100% having fond memories of their youth playing days when they are 18+.

Lots of squirt As make the HS team. We also hear many stories of Bs bumping a few off to make it. I would be interested in more data about A players staying A players, etc.

[O-townClown]

This has been discussed in the past, but it might be worth discussing with some facts. Are kids today doing too much too soon? I have read a lot on this subject about the dangers of early specialization and how that can lower the ceiling on a kids potential. But even worse is the burn out factor where kids have had enough at age 13 and drop out of sports all together. The data I have seen is that among kids that show expertise in an activity before puberty, only about 25% maintain that relative level of expertise at 18. The danger is having a kid peak as a peewee, then drop out since they are still not one of the best or are just sick of it.

I also read last year in the STRIB that only about 25% of squirt A players actually play high school varsity hockey. That data, if true, correlates some what with the earlier data on early vs. late expertise.

For those that have seen it all (i.e. kids in High school or higher), does the above observation pan out, or do the " A" players stay "A" players (legitimately). Do a lot of kids that have passion for the sport as a squirt, lose it before they hit high school? Are we wasting our summers with summer hockey by spending copious amounts of money and time, only to see the kid burn out?

On Tier 1, do you think the reason it has not taken hold here is that there isn't a need? Meaning the alternatives offered here in Minnesota make the business proposition of creating year round Tier 1 program not very good? If there is not an unmet need, then why do it?

I understand that's what studies show, but I think the data has been misinterpreted.

Early specialization certainly accelerates the age at which someone reaches their potential. Look at the 100s of kids that play tennis at Bolliteri or golf at Leadbetter and most do not become world-beaters. Yet some players do. Charles Howell, Tiger Woods, Maria Sharapova, Jennifer Capriati - all are examples of people that became world-class and played a lot at a young age.

The reason only 25% maintain their relative level of expertise by age 18 is that there are other factors. How much you play certainly is a component, especially in 'skill' sports like tennis, hockey, and golf. Other components are genetic ability, passion (which may wane when a once-great starts to experience that they aren't), and a supportive enviroment.

How much is too much? When someone doesn't enjoy all of it you are at the point of too much.

For your question about AAA or Tier I, yes. Minnesota has much less need for this than other parts of the country. Good players in St. Louis don't have dozens of teams to play within a short drive.

[Gump]

I've seen examples of all the points that you raised.

There is a drastic change in abilities throughout the youth hockey career and into HS (and beyond) as individuals mature physically and mentally. However, I think the A players from Pee Wee forward tend to remain A level players. There will be some B players that work hard and become very good HS players too.
I've seen few C Pee Wee or Bantam players make a HS varsity team. Why? Good question that I'm sure has way too many answers.

I think summer hockey can be a good thing, if the player wants to participate. Skating, staying in shape, having some fun, learning some new skills for the upcoming season, ... are all good things. How much is good and how much will create a burn out situation? I guess that's where our parenting skills are supposed come in.

Why do so many players quit before HS? Burn out is definitely a part of it. I'm not sure that it is related to skating too much growing up as it is to burning out from the constant pressures. I've seen way too many great players either stop trying or quit due to the overbearing parents or coaching issues. However, I've seen more good players quit because of family issues or their interests just changed as they mature: dating, parties, jobs, playstations, ... Another issue is that HS hockey is nothing like the youth hockey programs that these kids are used to. Some just don't like it and will either quit or go to JG.

So, are we wasting our summers and money on too much hockey? If the player is having fun, is well balanced in other sports/activities, and is getting something out of it; then I would say no.


Regarding Tier I in MN: I think the only reason that it hasn't taken hold is that MN Hockey isn't sanctioning teams. But that's probably a discusssion for another thread.

[crossovers8]

sorno82,

Thanks for the thought-provoking topic. However, I'm not sure that Tier 1 AAA needs to be thrown into this discussion. Summer "AAA" hockey and Tier 1 aren't the same thing. Minnesota has had a proliferation of summer "AAA" teams (and yes, this may contribute to the potential burnout of young players), but these teams are not Tier 1 teams, by USA Hockey standards.

The reason Tier 1 has not "taken hold" in Minnesota during the winter season is simple: it is prohibited by the governing body that is Minnesota Hockey. Associations still have a monopoly on winter hockey in Minnesota.

There is definitely an unmet need here. Otherwise, MN kids wouldn't be going over to the Fire to play Tier 1 hockey in the winter. Let's face it; it's still pretty taboo to take a kid from his local association and send him to play for the Fire. Thats a decision some families just aren't prepared to make. But if the Tier 1 concept was embraced by MN Hockey, and not viewed as a threat to the status quo of association-based hockey, far more families would be willing to give it a look.

I don't think the players that are going off to play Tier 1 hockey are even high risk for burnout. Yes, a Tier 1 program is demanding, but from what I've seen, the players that are there really want to be there, have high goals for themselves (which is OK), and simply love to play the game. Its not simply the parents forcing their will upon the kids.

[watchdog]

lets just do this

[Pens4]

This trend of pulling a kid from his community program and friends is only going to accellerate. Their is a belief that putting your kid on a high profile team creates opportunity. What we as parents need to understand is that if our kids are good enough...they will be found by the college & pro scouts.

Think of some of the hockey powerhouses that have produced college and pro players...Fridley High, Henry, Edison, Mpls SW, Cooper. Name a place that isn't scouted.

[nahc]

The best thing that happened to my hockey player was other sports, ie football and basketball. This gives my son a break from hockey and allows him to participate with friends, both hockey and non-hockey, in another sport. This really builds the bonds of a teammate when you get muddy on the football field or doing line killers in the basketball gym. This would hold true of a player who plays a musical instrument, skateboards, swims, etc.. This keeps hockey fresh for my son and when the long hockey season ends, ie late fall, winter, spring seasons, he gets a physical and mental break from the intensity of the sport. Does this mean that my son may not make the next A team or Varsity team? Does it matter? Believe it or not, life is a lot more than hockey.........but don't let my husband/wife hear me say that!!!!!!!!!

There are a LOT of great parents, players and coaches in this sport.....and it continues to impress me at each game I go to that after the game is over kids shake hands and, for the most part, parents from both teams can talk to one about the game!!!

[tomASS]

.but don't let my husband/wife hear me say that!!!!!!!!!

You have both?? Interesting arrangement

[DMom]

let me know how this works, I am always saying I could use a wife!! (and I don't think my husband would complain)

[tomASS]

let me know how this works, I am always saying I could use a wife!! (and I don't think my husband would complain)