Associations or AAA in winter?

[greybeard58]

Some numbers to look at from the USA Hockey annual guide and this is all players and can be found on page 10. It is interesting if you start with 2001-02 and see where the growth areas and where there losses then see the girls/women have continued to grow at a steady pace with the most in Minn-Kota. Next year Minnesota will be mentioned as a separate district. I do have some figures that might be reasonably accurate for Minnesota last year there were approximately 42,300 youth and girl players registered with USA/MN hockey. The numbers are a bit deceiving when you realize that there are Minn residents registered in the central district and remember these numbers are where the players are registered not where they live.
The Minnkota District is North and South Dakota and Minnesota
USA District registration all players
10 2007-08 USA Hockey
REGISTRATION BY DISTRICT
Girls’/Women’s Players (*as of 6/1/07; registration year ends 8/31/07)
District--- 2006-07*--- 2005-06 ---2004-05---- 2003-04---- 2002-03---- 2001-02
Atlantic----- 2,248 --------2,117------- 2,145 ------1,841------ 1,806-------- 1,585
Central -----5,890 ---------5,759------- 5,718 -----5,429------- 5,070------ 4,405
Mass-------- 7,768 --------7,646-------- 6,916 -----6,611------- 6,153 ------5,744
Michigan--- 4,560 --------4,405 -------4,297 ------4,186 -------3,987 ------3,759
Mid-Ameri- 2,201 --------2,112------- 1,926------ 1,940------ 1,739 ------1,622
Minnkota-- 11,884 ------11,016 -----10,505 -----10,230 ------9,233 ------8,670
New Eng---- 6,625 -------6,201 -------6,011 -------5,844------ 5,440------ 4,859
New York ---4,459------- 4,122-------4,025------- 4,035------- 3,835------ 3,627
Pacific------- 3,892 -------3,794 ------3,455------- 3,397 -------3,161----- 2,817
Rocky Mou- 4,614------- 4,402------- 3,954 ------3,783------- 3,493 -----3,321
Southeast-----2,813 -------2,588----- 2,323 ------2,198------- 2,054----- 1,883
TOTALS---- 56,954----- 54,162 -------51,275 ----49,494 ------45,971 -----42,292
All Players (*as of 6/1/07; registration year ends 8/31/07)
District------------ 2006-07*-- 2005-06-- 2004-05-- 2003-04-- 2002-03-- 2001-02
Atlantic------------ 32,052------ 31,046 ----32,408 ----33,499---- 33,614---- 32,311
Central ------------50,762- ------50,678 ----53,412 ----53,811--- 53,336 ----52,260
Massachusetts--- 43,916 -------44,586 ----44,515 ----44,850 ---44,299---- 44,400
Michigan---------- 52,141-------54,194 ----56,121 ----56,343 ---56,947 ----57,621
Mid-American---- 27,715------ 28,363---- 29,079---- 29,490 ---29,477 ----28,726
Minnkota ----------55,415------ 52,536---- 52,709---- 52,647--- 50,960 ----49,314
New England------33,837----- 33,542----- 34,122 ----36,020 ---34,925---- 34,054
New York ---------41,625------ 40,801 ----41,409----- 42,941-- 44,100 ----46,452
Pacific -------------36,172------ 33,326 ---32,844 -----32,769- --32,626---- 31,719
Rocky Mountain -40,452------ 38,582 ----35,175---- 33,663--- 34,187 ----35,313
Southeastern------ 36,871------ 34,423 ----33,451---- 33,577 ---31,857---- 30,555
TOTALS -----------450,958 -----442,077---- 445,245--- 449,610 --446,328 ----442,725
2006-07 ICE HOCKEY
REGISTRATION SUMMARY
(*as of 6/1/07; registration year ends 8/31/07)
By Age Group
Division 2006-07*
6 & Under 41,272
Ages 7 & 8 49,505
Ages 9 & 10 57,609
Ages 11 & 12 61,847
Ages 13 & 14 59,709
Ages 15 & 16 45,719
Ages 17 & 18 28,977
Age 19 5,764
Age 20 & Over 100,556
Coaches 56,143
Referees 25,978

[jancze5]

TomAss....

I'm just eluding to those folks who like to stand behind the ever glorious statement of "well Minnesota has more players in D-1 than everyone combined or NHL the same, so it's the only way and the right way to go, blah!!"..without being realistic in that we also have so many players to make those numbers.

[tomASS]

TomAss....

I'm just eluding to those folks who like to stand behind the ever glorious statement of "well Minnesota has more players in D-1 than everyone combined or NHL the same, so it's the only way and the right way to go, blah!!"..without being realistic in that we also have so many players to make those numbers.

understand where your coming from - and I had to have fun with the 3 blind mice statement because sometimes we do look at things with blinders on, but I'm a homer nonetheless

[greybeard58]

Everybody always talks about AAA and yet since 2001 in Michigan the girls numbers have increased by about 800 while there overall total has dropped by over 5,000 players. For a comparison that number is larger then the total registered players and coaches in Mn Hockey District 2.
If you look at the other Districts that are prominent in the Tier 1 programs the girls numbers have grown and the overall player numbers are mostly even or lower than in 2001-02 season. The Southeastern,Pacific and Rocky Mountain have grown along with MinnKota.

[spin-o-rama]

I was in chicago for this tournament; there are amazing players from all over N. america.
Detroit guy is correct with his statements. I have been involved with hockey in MN for 15 years; this was an eye openner!
great tournament, all the travel, cost, dedication just shows what people will do for the greatest sport.
I wouldnt nock MN hockey but I certainly wouldnt over look what the rest
of the country is doing; they are producing amazing hockey players from smaller ponds which brings the question to mind- what is the ratio of players that advance to D-1 or the NHL from the populations of youth hockey players. Does MN have twice as many players compared to MI?
I would love to see an apple to apple comparison based on total partispants per state.

From USA hockey 05-06 report. These are all U20 numbers.

________Michigan___Minnesota
Youth_____36,163____34,520
Girls_______3,079_____8,819
Total______39,242____43,339

Very similar #s at the Youth (boys) level.

[Undercover Hockey Lover]

What you miss in the Michigan versus Minnesota U20 totals are the number of HS players from ninth grade on that don't register with USA Hockey and I'm pretty sure if you took that fact into consideration we would have much higher numbers. Dont'cha know..you can make any numbers look good without explanation.

Let's see....@150 HS program in the state with a roster limit of 20 there's 3000 more players PLUS and equal number of JV players another 3000. There a 6000 player swing. I realize Michigan has HS hockey but I doubt there's more than a 1000 players involved total so....These are generalizations but I think you get the picture.

[FromDetroit]

Thank you Sorno for nailing it.
I asked the question above about sponsorship. If Little Caesars, Honeybaked, Compuware, and Victory Honda are kicking in money and "dues" for players are still the same, where does all the money go?

Do the scholarship the top players in hopes of having a stacked team and then fill in with the best paying players they can find?
.

Well, as I've mentioned earlier, the dues compared to other AAA clubs are about the same. What sets the sponsored teams apart are the "extras". The free 3rd jersey, a new hockey bag, gloves, perhaps a bus to the tournament, rather than a parents car. To my best knowledge everyone pays and there are no "purchased" players or teams.

Having said all that I am in no way trying to say that AAA is the greatest system, as it has it's share of faults. All I am trying to contribute ito this discussion is that EVERY SYSTEM CAN BE IMPROVED, including the "association" system in MN. Reading some of your threads, many associations have their own share of issues with politics and kids who are selected based on whose kids they are vs. merit. I would imagine that it would be extremely frustrating to be in that kind of a situation.

[OGEE OGELTHORPE]

UHL- There is 180 registered high school teams in Michigan, according to your "1000" players that would be roughly 5.5 kids per team. Almost as big as some of the Warroad youth teams.

[Mister Hockey]

I just wanted to see peoples view on this subject and boy did I get it and more. Keep it up guys!!!

[spin-o-rama]

undercover- good point about HS players. I overlooked that.

Here are some comparisons. (O-town Clown, I included Florida in your honor.) #s are U20 minus girls.

College D1 #s are from INCH's state of the game.

__________youth______D1________ratio of youth
_________players____players______to D1 players
CA_______7,411_______32__________231
FL________5,062_______5__________1012
IL_______16,085______59__________272
MI______36,163______150__________241
MN______34,520_____214__________161
MN + undercover's HS est
________40,520_____214__________189

I know numbers can be massaged different ways, but I think Minnesota has a pretty good thing going for it. More participation (all the other states have much larger populations, too), more D1 players, and cheaper costs.

The biggest MN perk for me is the outdoor ice. Absolutely love it!

[O-townClown]

Detroit:

"Every system can be improved" - Agreed. I live in Florida and see some crazy stuff with people trying to play the AAA game. It is a far cry from the Minnesota model where suburban kids play virtually all their hockey within 30 minutes of home and when they get older they can date the girls from their community. They don't have to move away and adjust to Ann Arbor, Omaha, or Kansas City. That's a good thing.

While acknowledging that the Minnesota model can be improved, let's at least point out everything that has been done in the past 20 years.

* Lengthening of MN HS games to 17-min vs 15-min periods.
* Increased regular season schedule from 20 to 26 games because of additional tournaments allowed.
* Participation in USA Hockey Select 14/15/16/17 camps
* Creation of fall High School Elite League to provide an opportunity for another 20 games or so without impacting the HS Varsity structure.
* Growth of off-season "All Star" teams that play in AAA tournaments.

I'm sure there are more and I may not have every detail correct above, but I think it is fair to say this:

The Minnesota system can be knocked for not catering to the top 1-2% of all participants, but several modifications have been made to accomodate their interests as well.

Some comments and points of clarification on your above posts:

* Brandon Maxwell of the NTDP is listed with a Winter Park, Florida address, but he is not a product of the Orlando youth hockey scene. People here don't know him. I'm guessing his dad moved here recently or something. Last year he played in Canada as a Midget.
* AAA hockey has many plusses. The Nike Bauer last weekend had to be a blast. However, it is very expensive relative to virtually every other activity. That model isn't inclusive at all. Minnesota - right or wrong - makes choices to prevent its hockey from becoming exclusive. I know one longtime NHL player that would never have been able to develop anywhere BUT Minnesota. If you knew his home life you'd agree.

I think the next step is that we'll see some kids opt out of their community programs to form an in-season AAA travel team. I'm not sure if other association teams will boycot them or embrace the idea of playing "friendlies", but the meat of their schedule will be these tournaments you've attended. In time people will see whether or not there are Stay At Home kids that played Richfield Pee Wee and Bantam and developed as much as the well-funded Cyclone players that globetrotted and placed hockey above all else.

Then the next wave can make an informed decision as to what is best for their families.

[watchdog]

no the junior islander team at the 95 level is a very good team what i am saying is my kid can and does get aaa experience while playing association hockey in minnesota...

[O-townClown]

I know numbers can be massaged different ways, but I think Minnesota has a pretty good thing going for it. More participation (all the other states have much larger populations, too), more D1 players, and cheaper costs.

The biggest MN perk for me is the outdoor ice. Absolutely love it!

Spinner, thanks for being considerate enough to include me! Anyway, you've nailed it. Michigan has its model and it really does a great job of focusing attention on the very best players. More NHL players than any other state. Bravo.

Minnesota has its model and it does a great job of providing opportunity for everyone.

Michigan and Minnesota are both 'mature' hockey states. You can argue that Florida is a 'nascent' hockey incubator and that California is an 'up and comer', but there is no way to say the MI v. MN data is polluted in any way.

Minnesota fuels the WCHA, Michigan fuels the CCHA. I don't see how anyone can see the numbers you show and infer that Minnesota is off the mark. There's right, wrong, and different. Michigan can be right, Minnesota can be right too. They'd have a very hard time deconstructing the sponsored programs and you can say the same for blowing up MSHSL Varsity in favor of loosely clustered all-star teams.

[Mister Hockey]

A few posts ago someone said that Minnesota fuels the WCHA, Michigan fuels the CCHA?
Well I don't know how many from Minnesota are on Michigan Tech but they are leading the WCHA and Minnesota is in last place. Is that unbelievable or what!!![/quote]

[Hobey Faker]

I don't think minnesota hockey would have to change anything; except allow a certain number of clubs to form.
see how that goes before making any final judments. the clubs and partisapants would take all the risk up front.
Shattuck hasn't destroyed MN hockey, why would this?

[breakout]

I don't think minnesota hockey would have to change anything; except allow a certain number of clubs to form.
see how that goes before making any final judments. the clubs and partisapants would take all the risk up front.
Shattuck hasn't destroyed MN hockey, why would this?

Go start your own. You can head to Wisconsin and do it just like the Fire. Good Luck! Get back to us and let us know how it works out

[watchdog]

this subject will never be settled to each their own. my kids will be happy to dawn the green and white one day and thats what counts for me.

[waylon]

I don't think minnesota hockey would have to change anything; except allow a certain number of clubs to form.
see how that goes before making any final judments. the clubs and partisapants would take all the risk up front.
Shattuck hasn't destroyed MN hockey, why would this?

Go start your own. You can head to Wisconsin and do it just like the Fire. Good Luck! Get back to us and let us know how it works out

Breakout,what do you have against AAA hockey?you are constantly bashing it,can you not afford it?Do you think it's to much hockey for kid's?Are you totally against the 1 sport Athlete?I hope you don't depend on your association for development!I hope I wasn't to harsh
________
TEEN AMERICAN

[greybeard58]

A question, What is the cost for Compuware or HoneyBaked teams or the other teams that compete at this level.When a friends son was playing in the Tier1 National tournament for bantams in 1995 in Chicago, some parents of other teams were telling him the cost to play was about $15,000 not counting their travel.Also the way the parent sounded if you did not bring the money to the first meeting the next in line was added. Was this true or just a bunch of B.S.?

[watchdog]

waylon - your not happy at burnsville?

[breakout]

I don't think minnesota hockey would have to change anything; except allow a certain number of clubs to form.
see how that goes before making any final judments. the clubs and partisapants would take all the risk up front.
Shattuck hasn't destroyed MN hockey, why would this?

Go start your own. You can head to Wisconsin and do it just like the Fire. Good Luck! Get back to us and let us know how it works out

Breakout,what do you have against AAA hockey?you are constantly bashing it,can you not afford it?Do you think it's to much hockey for kid's?Are you totally against the 1 sport Athlete?I hope you don't depend on your association for development!I hope I wasn't to harsh

Ya, Waylon I am at the plasma center right now...........nice remark I wish I could have all that fame and fortune that you have in Burnsville

I have nothing against AAA hockey in the off season. If you read some of my posts you would know that. Like most of the fanatics on the youth page you interpret and twist things. Did you ever notice few threads get locked up in the high school area?

Waylon, it's a simple deal. Step up and start a hockey team like you suggest over the border. That is how the Fire got going. Or, would you rather rip people than be pro-active?

My guess is that you will stick to what you are good at and assist in getting another thread locked up

[breakout]

A question, What is the cost for Compuware or HoneyBaked teams or the other teams that compete at this level.When a friends son was playing in the Tier1 National tournament for bantams in 1995 in Chicago, some parents of other teams were telling him the cost to play was about $15,000 not counting their travel.Also the way the parent sounded if you did not bring the money to the first meeting the next in line was added. Was this true or just a bunch of B.S.?

Keep in mind Waylon has deep pockets and feels the great game of hockey should only be played by kids residing in the top 1% income bracket.

Herb Brooks and Waylon were on the exact same page. It is amazing how great hockey minds think alike.

Was it broaden the pyramid or invert the pyramid

[Hobey Faker]

I don't think minnesota hockey would have to change anything; except allow a certain number of clubs to form.
see how that goes before making any final judments. the clubs and partisapants would take all the risk up front.
Shattuck hasn't destroyed MN hockey, why would this?

Go start your own. You can head to Wisconsin and do it just like the Fire. Good Luck! Get back to us and let us know how it works out

same old song and dance! you still have not given a good reason not to try it.

[Undercover Hockey Lover]

UHL- There is 180 registered high school teams in Michigan, according to your "1000" players that would be roughly 5.5 kids per team. Almost as big as some of the Warroad youth teams.

Ogee, OK....There are 180 REGISTERED HS teams. Who are they registered with? If it is with USA Hockey then those kids were in the 36000+. The possible 1000 I was alluding to were not registered with USA Hockey but with their HS league like MN where the HS teams are NOT in the USA Hockey U20 numbers. Understand now?

Your reading comp skills need help must be that WHS English departments fault.

[Hobey Faker]

A question, What is the cost for Compuware or HoneyBaked teams or the other teams that compete at this level.When a friends son was playing in the Tier1 National tournament for bantams in 1995 in Chicago, some parents of other teams were telling him the cost to play was about $15,000 not counting their travel.Also the way the parent sounded if you did not bring the money to the first meeting the next in line was added. Was this true or just a bunch of B.S.?

Keep in mind Waylon has deep pockets and feels the great game of hockey should only be played by kids residing in the top 1% income bracket.

Herb Brooks and Waylon were on the exact same page. It is amazing how great hockey minds think alike.

Was it broaden the pyramid or invert the pyramid

what does this have to do with anything ? you are trying to poison this thread. lets hear you give some thoughtful reasons why it is a bad idea
to have some winter AAA teams and how it would hurt MN hockey.
other than you don't like it you haver not contributed jack.
I am already in WI. AND LOVING IT!!! I also coach one of our local association teams as a non parent.
I do think association hockey is important but I also think we could offer AAA without hurting MN hockey as it is.
if you cant afford it don't do it, if you can more power to you.
my son still hangs with his school friends, he is an A honor roll student and
has always liked to challenge himself. This was his idea and A good one at that. I am proud as hell of what he has achieved and it's not because I pushed him. Some kids are highly motivated and want achieve more than
what is currently offered locally.
I have met a ton of people just like you; it really bothers you to see others succeed!
I am not new at this game so the over crazed parent line you typically use
is as worthless as your post.