Associations or AAA in winter?

[SuperStar]

"54"

I do agree with you. Having a option is always good!

Right now the only "option" is the Fire - and it's a good one.

Minnesota winter AAA teams...??Would be nice, but I don't see that happening, but then again what the hell do I know..

[wheels]

Why do so many posters hate MNHockey so much and come up with all of this crap. Our system is the envy of hockey programs around the US. There are several individuals on this board and on the HC board that are part of "private" programs around the country that have stated that they would love to have the system we have. One guy coaches for Assabet Valley MA (perrenial girls national champions at 12U, 14U and 19U) and he consistently has mentioned that he would love it if they had our system. Their kids have to travel all over the east coast to play and we complain about driving to New Prague. Many of them actually play on their travel team and then on a local (I think they call it rep hockey) team.


Regarding the age of the MN Hockey board, I suspect that most of them don't start those positions until their kids have finished their youth hockey years. That will generally mean that they will be over 35. Are we going to discriminate against them due to their age? Hey, I have an idea, let's outsource their positions to CHINA or INDIA ! Many of the coaches and hyper interested parents leave youth hockey as their kids leave bantams so they can watch their kids play on their high school team. When their last kid graduates from high school they tend to drift into more important things like playing in a Texas Hold 'Em league rather than volunteering their time to further the youth program.

You guys are missing the point on this whole discussion. These two are tied together.

Here is what happens in Minnesota Association Hockey.

1st kid in family starts hockey. Dad helps out for first couple years in initiation clinic (he played all the way up to c peewees so he really knows what he is doing). Family gets mad that their 90 pound mite got screwed in mite ratings (even though he can't bend his knees while he is skating). Mom or Dad runs for board along with a few other parents who's "kids got screwed". They get elected and now there is big trouble in board room.

Old boys who have been running board get out voted on some issues. They are ticked off.

The new folks on the board base all their decisions on what would benefit their own kid and with what they are familiar with, usually mites or squirts. Can you see the whole picture coming together yet???

Finally other families see the turmoil around this whole clown show. The Squirt coach is runing off with one of the moms, the evaluations were fixed, the high school coach is running the Bantam coach out of town and taking over the program. Their older kid, whos best friend went to Hill, is caught in the Bantams or Highschool choice, and the PeeWee coach is an idiot who only practices cycling. So Dad says to Little Joey their 2nd son who is going to be a PeeWee, "lets go try the Fire". So off they go. Little Joey gets alot of ice, meets some new friends, and they put 6000 extra miles on the old Caprice Wagon.

Now the other families from the association won't talk to them because they deserted the team.

Many places the hockey boards are run by people who are in their 30's with little or no organized sports experience. I don't know anyone on a single hockey board that doesn't have kids in the program.

So to wrap up my little glimpse into the real world of association hockey I'll say that, Minnesota Hockey is great in some places and is not that great in others, it's not the envy of the hockey world and should not be the only choice people have. It's too easy for the associations to be taken over by the people with the loudest voice instead of the ones with the most thoughtful voice and most sports experience and thats what ruins it for everyone.

So Rocket, after a few kids through hockey from Mites to High School, do you really expect someone to volinteer for more of the hockey board kind of fun rather than, oh I don't know...pick anything??????

[SuperStar]

Wheels - Good point. I am only talking from my little world experience..My kid did leave and play for winter AAA for 3 years, this is his first year back and he loves it. Just like he did with W-AAA. No one has ever given us any grief or "ill will". I do have to the last 3 years have been AWESOME coaching and training and it help did bring out the best in him - Without a doubt, he wouldn't not gotten that from the team we were at. (which is a different program than his current team)

Funny though how some people like to think thier way is the best and thats the way it should be. MN Hockey is envied by alot of folks, yes - So is W-AAA. It's a matter of choice really and the best part is - It's nice to have choices.

[watchdog]

i for one am sick and tierd of hearing about the machine and the blades higher level ect..... who cares let me clue you in their not that good. hell my kid playes for the junior islanders in the summer (they never practice) they get together in the summer for 4 or 5 tourneys and thats it. they played the great blades team at the meltdown and got homerd by the refs or they would have beat the "great ones" without a team practice!!!!! guess that tells you the talent level of the players. next thing is if you take the best peewee and bantam teams in the state association teams they could at any given time beat either one of those so called super teams. all you have their is a good group of players piled on one team and they practice all the time. alot of the summer teams they play dont practice thats the diffrence. the other kids dont get total cohesive and they loose their legs because their not skating 3 or 4 times a week. now if you change to triple a all the time how many teams are you gona make that are considerd triple a? 10 or 12 all in the metro? lets wake up here and get a clue. the other part of all this is alot of parents have little johnny the superstar in the 95 level but when he has to goto peewee this year as a first years hes average. its good for your kid to work alittle he doesnt have to be the super stud all the time. we have the best system in the country and its time to appriciate it and stop whinning.

[SuperStar]

Thanks for that.

I don't think I am whining. I love both systems. It's just nice to be able to do something different - If thats something you want to do.

My kid doesn't play for the machine or the blades. Very good teams though..

[regdunlop77]

i for one am sick and tierd of hearing about the machine and the blades higher level ect..... who cares let me clue you in their not that good. hell my kid playes for the junior islanders in the summer (they never practice) they get together in the summer for 4 or 5 tourneys and thats it. they played the great blades team at the meltdown and got homerd by the refs or they would have beat the "great ones" without a team practice!!!!! guess that tells you the talent level of the players. next thing is if you take the best peewee and bantam teams in the state association teams they could at any given time beat either one of those so called super teams. all you have their is a good group of players piled on one team and they practice all the time. alot of the summer teams they play dont practice thats the diffrence. the other kids dont get total cohesive and they loose their legs because their not skating 3 or 4 times a week. now if you change to triple a all the time how many teams are you gona make that are considerd triple a? 10 or 12 all in the metro? lets wake up here and get a clue. the other part of all this is alot of parents have little johnny the superstar in the 95 level but when he has to goto peewee this year as a first years hes average. its good for your kid to work alittle he doesnt have to be the super stud all the time. we have the best system in the country and its time to appriciate it and stop whinning.

watchdog - feisty today, aren't we. keep on posting your good humour.

[elliott70]

Why do so many posters hate MNHockey so much and come up with all of this crap. Our system is the envy of hockey programs around the US. There are several individuals on this board and on the HC board that are part of "private" programs around the country that have stated that they would love to have the system we have. One guy coaches for Assabet Valley MA (perrenial girls national champions at 12U, 14U and 19U) and he consistently has mentioned that he would love it if they had our system. Their kids have to travel all over the east coast to play and we complain about driving to New Prague. Many of them actually play on their travel team and then on a local (I think they call it rep hockey) team.


Regarding the age of the MN Hockey board, I suspect that most of them don't start those positions until their kids have finished their youth hockey years. That will generally mean that they will be over 35. Are we going to discriminate against them due to their age? Hey, I have an idea, let's outsource their positions to CHINA or INDIA ! Many of the coaches and hyper interested parents leave youth hockey as their kids leave bantams so they can watch their kids play on their high school team. When their last kid graduates from high school they tend to drift into more important things like playing in a Texas Hold 'Em league rather than volunteering their time to further the youth program.

You guys are missing the point on this whole discussion. These two are tied together.

Here is what happens in Minnesota Association Hockey.

1st kid in family starts hockey. Dad helps out for first couple years in initiation clinic (he played all the way up to c peewees so he really knows what he is doing). Family gets mad that their 90 pound mite got screwed in mite ratings (even though he can't bend his knees while he is skating). Mom or Dad runs for board along with a few other parents who's "kids got screwed". They get elected and now there is big trouble in board room.

Old boys who have been running board get out voted on some issues. They are ticked off.

The new folks on the board base all their decisions on what would benefit their own kid and with what they are familiar with, usually mites or squirts. Can you see the whole picture coming together yet???

Finally other families see the turmoil around this whole clown show. The Squirt coach is runing off with one of the moms, the evaluations were fixed, the high school coach is running the Bantam coach out of town and taking over the program. Their older kid, whos best friend went to Hill, is caught in the Bantams or Highschool choice, and the PeeWee coach is an idiot who only practices cycling. So Dad says to Little Joey their 2nd son who is going to be a PeeWee, "lets go try the Fire". So off they go. Little Joey gets alot of ice, meets some new friends, and they put 6000 extra miles on the old Caprice Wagon.

Now the other families from the association won't talk to them because they deserted the team.

Many places the hockey boards are run by people who are in their 30's with little or no organized sports experience. I don't know anyone on a single hockey board that doesn't have kids in the program.

So to wrap up my little glimpse into the real world of association hockey I'll say that, Minnesota Hockey is great in some places and is not that great in others, it's not the envy of the hockey world and should not be the only choice people have. It's too easy for the associations to be taken over by the people with the loudest voice instead of the ones with the most thoughtful voice and most sports experience and thats what ruins it for everyone.

So Rocket, after a few kids through hockey from Mites to High School, do you really expect someone to volinteer for more of the hockey board kind of fun rather than, oh I don't know...pick anything??????

Someone missed the topic of the post(s). (And it was not Rocket.)

[54fighting]

Watchdog,
I ask again, why not have both options available.
I only can only speak of the one situation that I am familiar with but they did not leave MN hockey because little johnny had to work to hard. They left because he did not have to work hard enough.
The one question that I have asked a number of times on this forum and still have not gotten an answer to is this:
If your local association is only capable of skating a team at the B1-B2 level and you happen to be a very skilled player ( talking 2nd year peewee or bantam not squirts) what do you do?
Is it fair to make everyone in the association try to play up at the level of that player or is it fair to make that player skate down at a level that will offer very few challenges in games or practices? Tough call. I know our local association struggles with this scenerio every year and no matter which way they go it always seams to lead to some hard feelings.

This is where I think having the option of a AAA program in MN makes sense.

Again, just my opinion.

[elliott70]

Watchdog,
.....
The one question that I have asked a number of times on this forum and still have not gotten an answer to is this:
If your local association is only capable of skating a team at the B1-B2 level and you happen to be a very skilled player ( talking 2nd year peewee or bantam not squirts) what do you do?
Is it fair to make everyone in the association try to play up at the level of that player or is it fair to make that player skate down at a level that will offer very few challenges in games or practices? Tough call.
.....
This is where I think having the option of a AAA program in MN makes sense.

Again, just my opinion.

Great question.

Finding a solution(s) is not easy.

Is it AAA, can all people afford that?

Is there (are there) another possibility????

Anyone have any thoughts??????

[BoogeyMan]

On a positive note. You have to take a look at the State of hockey. Minnesota is the envy of the entire country. There's no doubt that Minnesota is the number hockey state in the country.

[Mister Hockey]

How can we be the envy when none of our winter teams can compete in a National tournament at the end of the year??? Since some of our players are too old at every level the teams can not travel to a National Tournament. I believe if it is hosted by a Minnesota team they can participate. A friend and myself were just noticing how few Minnesota Players are on our National team and Junior teams anymore. Heck the last Olympic team I think only 1 or 2 were from here.

People around the country don't even think about Minnesota because they never can play them in the Winter. If they do think about Minnesota it is because of the USA Hockey Cup and the Minnesota Meltdown which is AAA hockey. I think it is stupid that Wisconsin has a state tournament for mites and there might be a National tournament for that level also. I hope we never stoop to go that low. There, I said something positive about Minnesota Hockey.

[elliott70]

How can we be the envy when none of our winter teams can compete in a National tournament at the end of the year??? Since some of our players are too old at every level the teams can not travel to a National Tournament. I believe if it is hosted by a Minnesota team they can participate.

Does this mean our High School tournament is a joke also?

The Naitonal tourney is one week (a few days) out of the year. Re-read why they envy us. Quality hockey, low cost (travel) (relatively).

Our local teams do not host. Participation in the national touney is a process that begins in the summer before the event.

MN teams that have attended in the past have spent a lot of money for something that was a let down from participating in our state tourney.
(cost/benefit)

And, again, teams are not 'not traveling' to Nationals because of the MN Hockey age.

[Mister Hockey]

I like our High School Hockey Tournament although it is nothing like it was in the 70's and 80's.

How come there are not as many high level Minnesota players out there compared to other states. One of the USA teams had as many players from Georgia, Florida, and Texas I believe than Minnesota and one level had as many if not more from California.

We used to dominate from about 1976-1992. How can Minnesota get to that level again???

[O-townClown]

How can we be the envy when none of our winter teams can compete in a National tournament at the end of the year???

Because Minnesota operates essentially "on an island" separate from the rest of USA Hockey, it can do whatever it wants. The rest of the country has to follow, with the exception of possibly Detroit and Massachusetts, so their member teams have someone to play.

Since some of our players are too old at every level the teams can not travel to a National Tournament.

And since the rest of the teams are outside of Minnesota they aren't eligible to play in the Minnesota state tournament.

Which is bigger? I went to see Centennial play Edina in the Bantam final 20 months ago and it was PACKED. I've seen "In the Crease" and was not impressed with the MCI Friends & Family audience. If it is such a big deal, how come nobody's there?

I believe if it is hosted by a Minnesota team they can participate. A friend and myself were just noticing how few Minnesota Players are on our National team and Junior teams anymore. Heck the last Olympic team I think only 1 or 2 were from here.

These are two different things. I'll tackle the Olympics first. In 2006 there were 4 Minnesotans (Hedican, Leopold, Blake, Parrish) out of 23 players. Yes, this is low. In 2002 it was very low. Was it just Housley? Herb Brooks was coach!

As for the junior national teams, many kids don't pursue the NTDP because they don't want to go to Ann Arbor. It does look like you can make a case for saying the elite Minnesotans are possibly held back by participating in community-based hockey.

People around the country don't even think about Minnesota because they never can play them in the Winter.

And people in Minnesota shouldn't think about the rest of the country.

http://www.nikebauerinvite.com/

Click the link to see your "AAA hockey" reality. I'm sure it was a great tournament, but the Nike Bauer held last week in Chicago is awful compared to what a Minnesota Pee Wee or Bantam deals with for a schedule. A Twin Cities suburban kid will play 80+% of their games within 30 minutes of home.

Look at these teams participating. Detroit to Chicago is one thing, but the rest of the field came from places a plane ride away. The TPH Thunder team is based in Nashville and also uses Atlanta and Huntsville for practice sites. They have players from other states too. Yikes! The California Wave in the movie "In the Crease" had a kid from Seattle and some that came up from San Diego.

Be careful what you wish for... You know the saying. If Minnesota increases the number of AAA teams and had an in-season season you will soon find that a lot of families that wanted it will be aced out. These teams will travel to Detroit, Windsor, Toronto, Chicago, and other locales. Why? The additional cost for no additional benefit makes it pointless.

Minnesota, flaws and all, still turns out 20% of the Americans participating in Division 1, far more than any other state.

I'm reading about the plight of this mythical superstar in the small program. It isn't like this kid is being hindered. Play with the local association, find better competition in spring, summer, or fall, and attend camps as needed. If they choose to, they can still move away for USHL, NAHL, Russell Stover, or whatever.

Shattuck's Bantams will be competitive nationally this year. Still, they lose some games straight up to normal association teams like Edina, Wayzata, or Eden Prairie. (There may be a disadvantage with the Minnesota teams using older players.) Top kids from other states move away to attend boarding school, usually by 8th grade, in hopes of being on a team as good as the best communities. Yeah, Minnesota's developmental model is the one that's flawed.

[breakout]

i for one am sick and tierd of hearing about the machine and the blades higher level ect..... who cares let me clue you in their not that good. hell my kid playes for the junior islanders in the summer (they never practice) they get together in the summer for 4 or 5 tourneys and thats it. they played the great blades team at the meltdown and got homerd by the refs or they would have beat the "great ones" without a team practice!!!!! guess that tells you the talent level of the players. next thing is if you take the best peewee and bantam teams in the state association teams they could at any given time beat either one of those so called super teams. all you have their is a good group of players piled on one team and they practice all the time. alot of the summer teams they play dont practice thats the diffrence. the other kids dont get total cohesive and they loose their legs because their not skating 3 or 4 times a week. now if you change to triple a all the time how many teams are you gona make that are considerd triple a? 10 or 12 all in the metro? lets wake up here and get a clue. the other part of all this is alot of parents have little johnny the superstar in the 95 level but when he has to goto peewee this year as a first years hes average. its good for your kid to work alittle he doesnt have to be the super stud all the time. we have the best system in the country and its time to appriciate it and stop whinning.

watchdog gets it

[tomASS]

i for one am sick and tierd of hearing about the machine and the blades higher level ect..... who cares let me clue you in their not that good. hell my kid playes for the junior islanders in the summer (they never practice) they get together in the summer for 4 or 5 tourneys and thats it. they played the great blades team at the meltdown and got homerd by the refs or they would have beat the "great ones" without a team practice!!!!! guess that tells you the talent level of the players. next thing is if you take the best peewee and bantam teams in the state association teams they could at any given time beat either one of those so called super teams. all you have their is a good group of players piled on one team and they practice all the time. alot of the summer teams they play dont practice thats the diffrence. the other kids dont get total cohesive and they loose their legs because their not skating 3 or 4 times a week. now if you change to triple a all the time how many teams are you gona make that are considerd triple a? 10 or 12 all in the metro? lets wake up here and get a clue. the other part of all this is alot of parents have little johnny the superstar in the 95 level but when he has to goto peewee this year as a first years hes average. its good for your kid to work alittle he doesnt have to be the super stud all the time. we have the best system in the country and its time to appriciate it and stop whinning.

watchdog gets it

Come On ? even for Mites???

[wheels]

Someone missed the topic of the post(s). (And it was not Rocket.)

Oh really.... I guess I thought it was about winter AAA vs MNHOCK in the winter.

[jancze5]

I don't think changing Minnesota to AAA hockey is the answer...however, I would whole heartedly support a birth year playing system within Minnesota. With the state major year Champion having the option to represent the state in the National tourney at the end of the year. Who cares what you call it...AAAAAAAAAAAA, or C4...

You absolutely cannot compare the current model to AAA winter hockey. The age group changes at the younger ages affect everything (see Puberty). A team of current Minnesota PWA's that's loaded with August 94's, playing a PW AAA team from Timbuktoo with December 95 kids will most likely have a more mature team of players, same for 92's that are playing Bantams still that could match up against 94's...doesn't seem to match up to me...hopefully I'm not the only one that can see this

The option of Minnesota AAA would be nice, but as I believe OTOWNCLOWN down in FLorida has eluded to...the reality to me is that the TC's could realistically support 2-3 AAA teams MAX. And these teams would have to try to get into the MWEHL (based in Detroit/Chicago). So, is the travel in the winter worth it? Or is fielding AAA spring teams like the Blades a better option. And the Blades don't practice all Spring and summer, they practice a 6-9 times prior to a tournament to get they're legs going. Results...see the website. Also, the Fire offer this option to those who choose to use it. The Fire has been able to field teams and usually runs into issues when these boys are 9th graders...who doesn't?

So, for now, play association and if you want to try AAA in the winter, go Fire. If you want to play AAA and go to big national tournaments in the summer, tryout for the Blades. If you want to dominate Minnesota AAA showcase and other local turn-ees, go MM or something else...

Whatever you do...have fun doing it and make it worth while.

[watchdog]

i agree if your association cant provide A level hockey and your child is at the a level i would move him. thats the the best reason ive heard of yet. its really the only reason i can see it. if we move to birth year because the kids maturity level heck we should go to the month and year. because whats gona happen is edina is gona come with a team of jan. feb. 94s while the next team only has a couple and the rest will be summer born or later. its just not fair. lol.... i have three kids that play hockey two were born in june does it get any worse yet the bantam just made the team as a first year all odds against him. on a team that will make a good run on the season no less. im not bragging im just saying its possible if little johnny so good he needs to find triple a he should beable to play "A" level his first year out and you cant tell me the compation isnt strong enough. than the next year he can be one of the leaders of the team and build some confidence. two years ago roseau the "association team squirts" played the fire in a warroad tourney and beat them 2-1 was that enough compatition for them? Maybe it was the fargo flyers that beat them i dont remember either way it was an association based team. i would love to see the fire play the roseau peewees or bantams this year id put bets on the winner of both. triple a hockey is a great thing in the summer i know it helps my kids. they learn to think faster and it helps to get them to the next level of play for the up coming season. that however is as far as it should go. the fire and a few more teams for the kids that dont have the opportunity to play at a top level are great anything above that is getting just plain stupid.

[O-townClown]

The option of Minnesota AAA would be nice, but as I believe OTOWNCLOWN down in FLorida has eluded to...the reality to me is that the TC's could realistically support 2-3 AAA teams MAX. And these teams would have to try to get into the MWEHL (based in Detroit/Chicago). So, is the travel in the winter worth it?

Jancze:

e-mail I received today...

...The travel has been hard on (my son).

From a parent of a AAA player. It is November 6th for Pete's sake!!

[elliott70]

Someone missed the topic of the post(s). (And it was not Rocket.)

Oh really.... I guess I thought it was about winter AAA vs MNHOCK in the winter.

The individual posts, not the theme of the thread, were about the age of the MN HHockey board. Your response to this post was about local boards and why volunteer. You stated Rocket (you guys, actually, but quoted Rocket) missed the point.

But you missed the point of Rockets post. You may have brought another argument to the thread topic. Not a valid one because it is not the standard of what happens but what you perceive happened (happens) in your local association.

[FromDetroit]

A couple of points from someone who is outside of MN.

Just got back from the Nike Bauer Tournament and what a blast it was. The best competition, further grouped into regular and elite AAA groupings. Everyone there, including kids from CA, FL, TX were having a time of their life and clearly did not mind the travel. The level of competition was exceptional. The tournament speaks to the effectiveness of AAA across the country. People like the ability to choose where to play and I can't imagine being locked into one association forever, and not have a choice of where you go. I see all sorts of issues with the coaches and the directions of the association, because they have a captive audience there may not be a lot of accountability.

Shattuck stays competitive because they recruit (and pay for) the kids from other states.

Lastly, on the subject of envy......... please do not overestimate the desirability of MN hockey. People move to Detroit, Toronto and Chicago for their kids hockey. If MN was offering something tremendous, people would be moving their kids / families in droves, but they don't.

[watchdog]

detroit- yeah right what rock are you living under?

[Neutron 14]

Which is bigger? I went to see Centennial play Edina in the Bantam final 20 months ago and it was PACKED.

Holy Angels coaching staff was there in force...

True!

[TTpuckster]

Which is bigger? I went to see Centennial play Edina in the Bantam final 20 months ago and it was PACKED.

Holy Angels coaching staff was there in force...

True!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...............HA..HA..HA..HA

Knock it off Neuty, You're makin' me fall on the floor at work!!!!