How did it all get so messed up

[jancze5]

Breakout,

re-read my original post, still don't get your reference to me being the know it all god of hockey or where you can even consider that...especially since you seem to be the one posting your .02 on everything and everywhere. Who are you? I can't believe how many posts you are on and how many opinions you have. You seem to live everywhere and know every kid and every team from Faribault to Roseau, both in youth and high school hockey, you are indeed the MELROSE of Minnesota.
Please change your handle to MELROSEminnesota.

Hey, at least that's funny..has kind of a ring to it...happy Wednesday!

[elliott70]

Breakout,

re-read my original post, still don't get your reference to me being the know it all god of hockey or where you can even consider that...especially since you seem to be the one posting your .02 on everything and everywhere. Who are you? I can't believe how many posts you are on and how many opinions you have. You seem to live everywhere and know every kid and every team from Faribault to Roseau, both in youth and high school hockey, you are indeed the MELROSE of Minnesota.
Please change your handle to MELROSEminnesota.

Hey, at least that's funny..has kind of a ring to it...happy Wednesday!

Who is Mel Rose???
I have heard of Pete Rose and Mel Ott.
Mel Rose???

[jancze5]

Elliott...Barry Melrose....as in "the source" of hockey information.

It's just a joke, Breakout actually has many insightful and knowledgeable posts, it's just he has a tendency to routinely be quick to drop the "you know it all" title on others...with the amount, frequency and variety of posts he is on, he just should be the last one of us to drop bombs on others, know what I mean. Read the history of my posts and you'll see that I usually am not on any side of anything, I tend to just ask questions to get both sides of a story...I want to hear what others have to say.
Like on this post, it's very unusual to have this kind of fallout from one organization...why did it happen?

[54fighting]

Jancze5

I could not agree more. My kids have played many years and levels of association hockey and one has also played for the Fire program. If you ask him where he had the most fun he will tell you the Fire hands down. He did have more time for homework because he was not going to a shared ice practice every night. I can't say that there are no downsides to the Fire program but for us the positives outweighed the negatives by quite a bit.
Breakout just likes to stir the pot. Not sure why. He either has a player who had a bad experience with them or he is a MN hockey apologist who gets defensive when ever something different is presented.

-Elliott70- Are you saying there is something that the Fire is doing that is not within USA hockey rules. I hope you have some sort of proof and not just more of the same old Fire bashing that MN Hockey is famous for. At our district wide meeting 2 years ago the director for our MN hockey district was so stupid he came right out and said that no teams in our district could play any Fire teams.

Bottom line is if someone decides to try something different, wish them luck and if does not work out welcome them back. End of story.

[elliott70]

Elliott...Barry Melrose....as in "the source" of hockey information.

It's just a joke, Breakout actually has many insightful and knowledgeable posts, it's just he has a tendency to routinely be quick to drop the "you know it all" title on others...with the amount, frequency and variety of posts he is on, he just should be the last one of us to drop bombs on others, know what I mean. Read the history of my posts and you'll see that I usually am not on any side of anything, I tend to just ask questions to get both sides of a story...I want to hear what others have to say.
Like on this post, it's very unusual to have this kind of fallout from one organization...why did it happen?

Yes, I know.
And, yes, I know.
And, again, yes, I know.

I have been reading these pages (all the forums) for a little while.

And why did it happen, I am pretty sure I know.

[LesHabs]

Same thing is happening in Chaska. They seemed to be building a power house program, now this year, the Bantam program is a mess and I understand there was even talk of not fielding an "A" team but instead just going with a "B1" team because of all the kids that have left for "greener" pastures.

[elliott70]

-Elliott70- Are you saying there is something that the Fire is doing that is not within USA hockey rules. I hope you have some sort of proof and not just more of the same old Fire bashing that MN Hockey is famous for. At our district wide meeting 2 years ago the director for our MN hockey district was so stupid he came right out and said that no teams in our district could play any Fire teams.

Bottom line is if someone decides to try something different, wish them luck and if does not work out welcome them back. End of story.

In reverse order, the DD can control teams from outside of the USAHockey district teams withinhis district play.

Second, as in the past the Fire play with Minnesota players and play within Minnesota. To follwo the rules they have to be within the guidelines of what USAHockey says is a Wisconsin team based on the number of Wisconsin players and the number of home events held in Wisconsin.
This obviously cannot be measured at the beginning of the year. Based on early information for this year, they may be in violation at some point.

Since this has been an ongoing problem it is being monitored. If your child is palying with them I would sugest you be familiar with the rule and what is occurring and make sure it does not become a problem. as I stated you have a responsibility if you are a parent - a responsibility to your child.

And as stated before, as a MN Hockey board member, I do not have a probelm with the Fire. As long as they stay within the rules.
If not, they are essentially a MN hockey program disguised as a Wisconsin program.

As a Lakeville parent said above, those palyers can go. The ones that stayed will be fine.

And I hope the Fire have success and a good year.

[54fighting]

Elliott
I do not claim to know anything about how the Fire registers it's teams. All I know is the same thing comes up every year and every year nothing happens.
As for our district director, you prove my point. Why would he be so offended by the Fire program that he would ban teams from his district from playing them. He also told managers and coaches to tell the tournaments that they were interested in that they could not invite the Fire or our team would not be coming.

I personally think that this is a good exaple of why families leave association hockey. Who is this guy to tell them who they can play and who they can't. Seems odd that teams from all over the country play the Fire teams but teams from this district can't?

[HOFam'r]

-Elliott70- Are you saying there is something that the Fire is doing that is not within USA hockey rules. I hope you have some sort of proof and not just more of the same old Fire bashing that MN Hockey is famous for. At our district wide meeting 2 years ago the director for our MN hockey district was so stupid he came right out and said that no teams in our district could play any Fire teams.

Bottom line is if someone decides to try something different, wish them luck and if does not work out welcome them back. End of story.

In reverse order, the DD can control teams from outside of the USAHockey district teams withinhis district play.

Second, as in the past the Fire play with Minnesota players and play within Minnesota. To follwo the rules they have to be within the guidelines of what USAHockey says is a Wisconsin team based on the number of Wisconsin players and the number of home events held in Wisconsin.
This obviously cannot be measured at the beginning of the year. Based on early information for this year, they may be in violation at some point.

Since this has been an ongoing problem it is being monitored. If your child is palying with them I would sugest you be familiar with the rule and what is occurring and make sure it does not become a problem. as I stated you have a responsibility if you are a parent - a responsibility to your child.

And as stated before, as a MN Hockey board member, I do not have a probelm with the Fire. As long as they stay within the rules.
If not, they are essentially a MN hockey program disguised as a Wisconsin program.

As a Lakeville parent said above, those palyers can go. The ones that stayed will be fine.

And I hope the Fire have success and a good year.

E70...could you be anymore politically correct?

Here is my perception of the real deal:

Minnesota Hockey will do everything within their power to disrupt and defunct the Fire. Of course, they will have to create a rule or a loophole but they have and will attempt to shut it down. This is a competitive league to their own...think about it. Plus, Minnesota Hockey is the "Ma Bell" of hockey...

What side of the fence do I stand on?

Well...like in everything there are good and bad about both. The bad is the way the Fire sell themselves...and the good is that the competition will make things better for all involved.

The good with MN Hock is that there is not an Association anywhere as experienced, organized and some ways dedicated to the game of Hockey. The bad is that at times it appears like a money grab without much value.

Bottom Line it is good to have choices I just don't think the Fire choice is all that good.

[gerryodrowski]

Read the history of my posts and you'll see that I usually am not on any side of anything, I tend to just ask questions to get both sides of a story...I want to hear what others have to say.

jancze5: Aren't opinions precisely what you are seeking when you "just ask questions"? You said you want to hear what others have to say, now you're blasting breakout for giving his opinions. What the hell? If everyone on this board was "not on the side of anything" like you claim to be it wouldn't be worth reading.

[ANKLESKATER]

Elliott,

I’m not trying to bash you but you always talk about following the rules.
But you at MN hockey pick and choose what rules to follow. For instance the age cut off rule. And when asked you say that MN hockey is geared to the High School level. But as a rule you must play for the youth association in where you live.

Then please address to me about the Stillwater situation with the Hill Murray Kids. At tryouts if you said you where going to try out for Hill you didn’t make the A team. And this is why the Head bantam coach resigned, exact reverse of what happened last year. I guessing that someone from MN hockey told Housley that you can’t discriminate on the kids’ choice of what High School they will attend. This year the Head coach didn’t want the Hill Murray kids, But Housley said to have to take them. Coach got mad and resigned, then somebody comes on here and says it’s about an ice bill. Ya right. Who makes these people follow the rules? We are talking about kids that are 14-15 years old what a kick in the nuts. And these people call themselves adults. Way to crush a kid. Lets face it some of the best athletes in this state will never get the chance to lace them up, because it cost to much.

[breakout]

Read the history of my posts and you'll see that I usually am not on any side of anything, I tend to just ask questions to get both sides of a story...I want to hear what others have to say.

jancze5: Aren't opinions precisely what you are seeking when you "just ask questions"? You said you want to hear what others have to say, now you're blasting breakout for giving his opinions. What the hell? If everyone on this board was "not on the side of anything" like you claim to be it wouldn't be worth reading.

Personally, I found jancze 1 thru 4 to be more sincere in their communication attempts.............V5 seems to be hypocritical

I am honored that he/she would take the time to read through my posts.

Hope everyone enjoys their day!

[jackstraw]

The one side you are forgetting is that perhaps the DD involved told the teams in his district that, thinking the Fire was in violation of USA Hockey rules, which in turn, teams playing them might be in violation also, in other words, just looking out for his districts teams? I hope people aren't arguing that teams should just bag rules and do what they wish. Mn Hockey, like other institutions, has flaws, but is USA Hockeys Top Dog.

[elliott70]

-Elliott70- Are you saying there is something that the Fire is doing that is
In reverse order, the DD can control teams from outside of the USAHockey district teams withinhis district play.

Second, as in the past the Fire play with Minnesota players and play within Minnesota. To follwo the rules they have to be within the guidelines of what USAHockey says is a Wisconsin team based on the number of Wisconsin players and the number of home events held in Wisconsin.
This obviously cannot be measured at the beginning of the year. Based on early information for this year, they may be in violation at some point.

Since this has been an ongoing problem it is being monitored. If your child is palying with them I would sugest you be familiar with the rule and what is occurring and make sure it does not become a problem. as I stated you have a responsibility if you are a parent - a responsibility to your child.

And as stated before, as a MN Hockey board member, I do not have a probelm with the Fire. As long as they stay within the rules.
If not, they are essentially a MN hockey program disguised as a Wisconsin program.

As a Lakeville parent said above, those palyers can go. The ones that stayed will be fine.

And I hope the Fire have success and a good year.

E70...could you be anymore politically correct?

I don't know if supporting the Fire is PC, Homer, but I support there right to exist.

Here is my perception of the real deal:
Minnesota Hockey will do everything within their power to disrupt and defunct the Fire. Of course, they will have to create a rule or a loophole but they have and will attempt to shut it down.

MN Hockey did not create the rule.
It is a USA HOckey rule that has been in place for a long, long time.

This is a competitive league to their own...think about it. Plus, Minnesota Hockey is the "Ma Bell" of hockey...

USA Hockey would be the MA BELL... MN Hockey is just small bell.
And this monopoly was created a long time ago by Congress.

What side of the fence do I stand on?
Well...like in everything there are good and bad about both. The bad is the way the Fire sell themselves...and the good is that the competition will make things better for all involved.

The good with MN Hock is that there is not an Association anywhere as experienced, organized and some ways dedicated to the game of Hockey. The bad is that at times it appears like a money grab without much value.

Bottom Line it is good to have choices I just don't think the Fire choice is all that good.

But, alas, Homer and I agree on somethings.

And I need to add, a nice PC answer.

For a couple of guys who disagree alot, we sure talk alot; and agree on things more than we should.

[elliott70]

Elliott,

I’m not trying to bash you but you always talk about following the rules.
But you at MN hockey pick and choose what rules to follow. For instance the age cut off rule. And when asked you say that MN hockey is geared to the High School level. But as a rule you must play for the youth association in where you live.

Age cut-off rule - MN Hockey follows USA Hockey rules. You, as most people associatied with MN Hockey, or if you prefer, mn hockey, do not understand this. Once your child is registered and rostered to a team, look at the offical roster.

Then please address to me about the Stillwater situation with the Hill Murray Kids. At tryouts if you said you where going to try out for Hill you didn’t make the A team. And this is why the Head bantam coach resigned, exact reverse of what happened last year. I guessing that someone from MN hockey told Housley that you can’t discriminate on the kids’ choice of what High School they will attend. This year the Head coach didn’t want the Hill Murray kids, But Housley said to have to take them. Coach got mad and resigned, then somebody comes on here and says it’s about an ice bill. Ya right. Who makes these people follow the rules? We are talking about kids that are 14-15 years old what a kick in the nuts. And these people call themselves adults. Way to crush a kid. Lets face it some of the best athletes in this state will never get the chance to lace them up, because it cost to much.

This is a local association matter.
If someone files a grievance, then it becomes a district matter. If it is appealed it becomes a MN Hockey grievance committee matter.
It is not about following USA Hockey or MN HOckey rules regarding selection of captains.
From what I have read on here, it sounds like a real mess that should be straightened out by someone at the local level. But that is what it sounds like here. I like both (all) sides to present their arguments before I make a decision.

[elliott70]

Elliott,

But as a rule you must play for the youth association in where you live.

USA Hockey rule allows local affiliates such as MH (formerly Minnkota) to establish boundary/registration rules. MN Hockey has established community based hockey with allowances for waivers. Since there is a disparity in MN between areas, MH has allowed districts to develop waiver policies.

[regdunlop77]

Read the history of my posts and you'll see that I usually am not on any side of anything, I tend to just ask questions to get both sides of a story...I want to hear what others have to say.

jancze5: Aren't opinions precisely what you are seeking when you "just ask questions"? You said you want to hear what others have to say, now you're blasting breakout for giving his opinions. What the hell? If everyone on this board was "not on the side of anything" like you claim to be it wouldn't be worth reading.

Personally, I found jancze 1 thru 4 to be more sincere in their communication attempts.............V5 seems to be hypocritical




I am honored that he/she would take the time to read through my posts.

Hope everyone enjoys their day!

Jancze5 = skillbuilder? = ? = ? = ? Wow

Jancze, good luck with the Fire

[Northland]

Elliott,

But as a rule you must play for the youth association in where you live.

USA Hockey rule allows local affiliates such as MH (formerly Minnkota) to establish boundary/registration rules. MN Hockey has established community based hockey with allowances for waivers. Since there is a disparity in MN between areas, MH has allowed districts to develop waiver policies.

Yes you are suppose to play for the association where you live unless you get a waiver. I have see waivers denied, and ugly things happen after that.

You all know this ... you can play for any high school if you start there in 9th grade, move into the district, sit out a year, or file for exception.

We all need to remember it's about the kids... not us.


.

[elliott70]

Elliott,

But as a rule you must play for the youth association in where you live.

USA Hockey rule allows local affiliates such as MH (formerly Minnkota) to establish boundary/registration rules. MN Hockey has established community based hockey with allowances for waivers. Since there is a disparity in MN between areas, MH has allowed districts to develop waiver policies.

Yes you are suppose to play for the association where you live unless you get a waiver. I have see waivers denied, and ugly things happen after that.

You all know this ... you can play for any high school if you start there in 9th grade, move into the district, sit out a year, or file for exception.

We all need to remember it's about the kids... not us.


.

Not just one kid.
Decisions that effect one kid may have ramifications beyond that one child.
Somethings are difficult because both sides can be right.
Finding what is 'righter' can be difficult.

[elliott70]

Elliott
I do not claim to know anything about how the Fire registers it's teams. All I know is the same thing comes up every year and every year nothing happens.

What happens to the Fire is a matter for Wisconsin Hockey or USA Hockey. The last time it came up they were in violation, but they were given a chance to prove it was an honest mistake. I believe it was (at the minimum a good chance it was). But not anymore. They know the rules and the people that enforce the rules are monitoring it.

As for our district director, you prove my point. Why would he be so offended by the Fire program that he would ban teams from his district from playing them. He also told managers and coaches to tell the tournaments that they were interested in that they could not invite the Fire or our team would not be coming.

There can be many reasons 'why'. To assume the man is stupid or offended is a very long stretch.
As stated in another post, the possibility of them being non-sanctioned would create all sorts of ramifications. That is precisely why I told associations in D16 to be careful in non-district game srimmages and
in invitational tournaments with out-of-state teams. And I did tell tehm to be careful and double check with me, if the Fire were involved in any event they were attending.

I personally think that this is a good exaple of why families leave association hockey. Who is this guy to tell them who they can play and who they can't. Seems odd that teams from all over the country play the Fire teams but teams from this district can't?

"Who is this guy?" He is the guy they answer to, anarchy is not a solution.
Having rules, having a vote on your representation, being able to change rules is the system that works.

[jancze5]

Not quite on the skillbuilder remark, but

I do have one my kids playing with the Fire this year. He loves his coach's philosophy and enjoys playing with his friends on the team.
I also have 2 kids playing association. So I do see both sides of the fence and am not for or against either. Trust me, I ask my own affiliates "why does the Fire even exist?". I ask that because I am aware that in Minnesota you don't need the Fire to play good hockey. Good hockey is everywhere here. Or is it, why is there a need for an "elite bantam" underground schedule? Is it because 90% of the teams in the state stink and don't provide competition for 70% of the schedule??

that's why I ask Breakout, what is his affiliation?
I don't hide behind any BS name on here.
I am happy to give you the whole rundown if you wish, but MANUP
youself and compare apples to apples.

Breakout, what organization(s)/high schools/colleges do you/your players play with/for/have competed as?

simple question...let's see if we get an honest simple answer, I have a bet that what I will get is a slam against the Fire, and a putdown...

hit the waiting music....

[54fighting]

Elliott-
I do not mean this to be an attack on you personally. I respect your willingness to get on this board and ask for opinions and solutions from the masses.
That being said I do not believe that all districts are run in the same manor as yours appears to be. Maybe that is why there always seems to be the number of great players that come out of the north in relation to the overall numbers.
In this particular district I know of a number of people who have asked the DD to look into a situation and the response has always been " I don't get involved in association buisness". Then if it is brought beyond the DD up the chain the response has been " Sorry we allow the districts to set there own rules and policys". Where is the accountability up the ladder?

I now longer have children playing in the youth hockey system but that was the one thing that always burned me. It seemed that the DD could do or say whatever he wanted and there was no accountability.

Anyway, just my two cents on why programs like the Fire and the AAA programs in the summer seem to be getting more and more popular.

[jancze5]

furthermore...

There is no right or wrong here when it comes to hockey. You can argue both sides of the fence for/against assocation or AAA. But you will rarely get a fair comparison because they are 2 different evils.

Just be willing to ante up while speaking your humble opinion.

[breakout]

I do have one my kids playing with the Fire this year.

[breakout]

Not quite on the skillbuilder remark, but

I do have one my kids playing with the Fire this year. He loves his coach's philosophy and enjoys playing with his friends on the team.
I also have 2 kids playing association. So I do see both sides of the fence and am not for or against either. Trust me, I ask my own affiliates "why does the Fire even exist?". I ask that because I am aware that in Minnesota you don't need the Fire to play good hockey. Good hockey is everywhere here. Or is it, why is there a need for an "elite bantam" underground schedule? Is it because 90% of the teams in the state stink and don't provide competition for 70% of the schedule??

that's why I ask Breakout, what is his affiliation?
I don't hide behind any BS name on here.
I am happy to give you the whole rundown if you wish, but MANUP
youself and compare apples to apples.

Breakout, what organization(s)/high schools/colleges do you/your players play with/for/have competed as?

simple question...let's see if we get an honest simple answer, I have a bet that what I will get is a slam against the Fire, and a putdown...

hit the waiting music....

Went to get a physical the other day. My Doctor told me their is great value in fruits, nuts and whine (misspell?).

Not sure that I agree.