Barry Bonds

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:53 pm

The big 4 sports and the NCAA care little about the health of their players, they care for the money they bring in. If steroids helped bring major league baseball back from the brink of death then baseball not only allowed it but also probably encouraged it. The NFL sent a convicted and suspended steroid user in Shawn Merriman to the Pro Bowl, that alone says volumes about what the NFL thinks of the problem. Merriman is one of the stars of the NFL, oh it just so happens he also uses steroids. It's pure speculation but generally 32 year old men don't suffer strokes unless they use a certain illegal performance enhancing drug, but a certain Patriot did suffer such a stroke and the NFL celebrated his return. An aside to the whole thing is coming out of college this player was rated by scouts as too undersized to play linebacker, but it appears he had a growth spurt, many observers see a clear parallel between him and Alzado. A Twin releiver who tested positive for steroids hasn't been the same since, a radio station speculates on whether steroids helped be the dominant reliever he once was and the Twins and MLB cry foul.

*Conspiracy Alert* If MLB and the NFL actually teseted everybody and made the results public people would be shocked how many are really guilty. The leagues would have to shut down due to lack of quality players. The leagues know that if they throw the public a bone every now and then they keep up the appearances of actually enforcing a rule they would rather not enforce at all.

One last point, kids don't look at an overweight man and think "Geez, if I just eat 4 Big Macs a day I too can be a lard butt" or see a drunk on corner, hear about a guy killing 4 while driving drunk and aspire to be like them. Kids do see Shawn Merriman make millions though, watch Juan Rincon pitch, or Barry Bonds coming up on one of the greatest feats in all of sports and think if I can just get that extra edge that can be me. Steroids kill and unfortunatly the major sports don't really care what message they their fans as long as they keep paying to see them.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:03 pm

You're right, and that is very unfortunate. Bonds should be made an example of. Kicked out to never return. Players should be told they will be tested monthly and anyone who fails will be kicked out and not allowed to return. Just my opinion.

theref · Post by **theref** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:47 am

packerboy wrote:Knowlzee makes a good point which was that the "punishment" of Bonds will take care of itself. There is no need for us to do anything.

The rest of Knowlzees post is his typical ultra liberal , hippie , "if it feels good do it " easy rider approach to life which should be rejected by all God fearng , conservative , Americans.

Why would anyone fear God, thought He was suppose to be our Father and a teacher to us. Yeah, He does have to power to wipe us off the face of the universe if He so chooses, but you can't fear death, especially if it's God's will. I've always found the whole God fearing thing a little wierd. Don't think He'd put us here just to be scared of Him. But guess that's just a difference it religions, though I was brought up Catholic.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:38 am

ref, A lot of what is posted here should not be taken too literally.

However, as you know from being a good Catholic, a healthy respect for eternal damnation can be of some assistance to us.

gopherhockey33 · Post by **gopherhockey33** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:08 pm

at the moment Bonds is the best player of all time. do steriods make you hit the ball 415 feet? very very very doubtful. he hasnt been proven of taking illegal substances yet so why do people get on his case. the balco stuff wasnt illegal at the time. all in all babe ruth is still the homerun king. he had liek 4000 less atbats and like 6500 less plate appearances than aaron.

Goldy Gopher · Post by **Goldy Gopher** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:52 am

gopherhockey33 wrote:at the moment Bonds is the best player of all time. do steriods make you hit the ball 415 feet? very very very doubtful. he hasnt been proven of taking illegal substances yet so why do people get on his case. the balco stuff wasnt illegal at the time. all in all babe ruth is still the homerun king. he had liek 4000 less atbats and like 6500 less plate appearances than aaron.

Best player of all time is a little bold.

gopherhockey33 · Post by **gopherhockey33** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:34 am

Goldy Gopher wrote:
gopherhockey33 wrote:at the moment Bonds is the best player of all time. do steriods make you hit the ball 415 feet? very very very doubtful. he hasnt been proven of taking illegal substances yet so why do people get on his case. the balco stuff wasnt illegal at the time. all in all babe ruth is still the homerun king. he had liek 4000 less atbats and like 6500 less plate appearances than aaron.
Best player of all time is a little bold.

hows it a little bold? more than 750 homers. 7 mvp more than a handle ful of gold gloves. and gets intenionally walked more than any other player in the history of the game. also has more than 500 steals.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:08 am

Bonds is one of the greatest.

But the greatest is still Ruth.

pucknstick10 · Post by **pucknstick10** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:27 pm

Bonds may or may not be the greatest of all time but I think he is easily the most feared hitter in the history of baseball.

ChrisK · Post by **ChrisK** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 2:42 pm

packerboy wrote:Bonds is one of the greatest.

But the greatest is still Ruth.

Ruth followed by Willie Mays. Think about it, Ruth was one of the top pitchers in the league before he started hitting home runs. Mays had Bonds' power with Torii Hunter's glove and a great arm.

Any Pittsburgh Pirate fan will tell you about the time that Bonds couldn't throw out Sid freakin' Bream from left field with a World Series berth on the line. There's no question that Bonds has been the most feared hitter of this generation but he's no Ruth or Mays.

You might even be able to make a good argument that he's not the home run hitter that Aaron was, Aaron hit most of his homers during a period when the pitchers were dominating to the point that the mound had to be lowered. I'd love to see Bonds face Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson or Juan Marichal, are there any pitchers that he's faced that would compare to those guys?

State Champ 97 · Post by **State Champ 97** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:08 pm

ChrisK wrote:
packerboy wrote:Bonds is one of the greatest.

But the greatest is still Ruth.
Ruth followed by Willie Mays. Think about it, Ruth was one of the top pitchers in the league before he started hitting home runs. Mays had Bonds' power with Torii Hunter's glove and a great arm.

Any Pittsburgh Pirate fan will tell you about the time that Bonds couldn't throw out Sid freakin' Bream from left field with a World Series berth on the line. There's no question that Bonds has been the most feared hitter of this generation but he's no Ruth or Mays.

You might even be able to make a good argument that he's not the home run hitter that Aaron was, Aaron hit most of his homers during a period when the pitchers were dominating to the point that the mound had to be lowered. I'd love to see Bonds face Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson or Juan Marichal, are there any pitchers that he's faced that would compare to those guys?

Imagine the armor Bonds would wear to the plate if he did face some of those guys. None of them were afraid of coming up and in to make a hitter uncomfortable.

gopherhockey33 · Post by **gopherhockey33** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:11 pm

its not like bonds hits his homers off college pitchers. hes hitting them off guys that throw 95+ MPH and have curves that break 2 1/2 feet.

ChrisK · Post by **ChrisK** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:49 pm

State Champ, that's exactly what I was thinking, Gibson in particular was ruthless.

True gopherhockey, Bonds is facing major league pitchers, but look at the numbers from the '60s in particular. It was tough sledding for the batters, facing the pitchers on a higher mound not afraid to pitch inside, with a flapless batting helmet as the only protection. Would Bonds still be able to hammer those outside pitches so easily under those conditions? One advantage that the batters in the '60s might have had was that they didn't have to face the closers of today. Still, they had to change the dimensions of the mound to counter the pitchers' dominance.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:34 pm

gopherhockey33, that point has been brought up again and again. You're right, no one is saying he isn't a talented player, he was a great player for his first ten years. But many of his home runs could easily be fly outs without the roids. Think of how many Morneau has hit that have be caught feet from the fence. A little stronger and he has more HRs and our record is much, much better right now. That's what roids do, they don't help you hit the ball better, you're right, they make it so when you do hit the ball you have more options with it.

With roids, someone like myself would just swing and miss faster, but with roids an already good baseball player becomes so much better.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:42 pm

HShockeywatcher wrote:With roids, someone like myself would just swing and miss faster...

Please don't take roids. You swing and miss faster than anyone already.

gopherhockey33 · Post by **gopherhockey33** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:21 am

but he still hasnt been prooven guilty of taking illegal substances. the steriods he took we not illegal so you cant rip on him

Can't Never Tried · Post by **Can't Never Tried** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:26 am

gopherhockey33 wrote:but he still hasnt been prooven guilty of taking illegal substances. the steriods he took we not illegal so you cant rip on him

You know who hasn't been proven guilty of talking in circles either

but we still rip on him

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:54 am

Its difficult to compare players in different eras.

But by any comparison, Bonds is not the greatest.

Again, carreer numbers can have more to do with a players longetivity as greatness.

These are the 162 game averages of the players discussed:

HR RBI BA SLG %

Ruth 46 143 .342 .690 (unbelievable)

Aaron 37 113 .305 .555

Bonds 41 109 .298 .607

Mays 36 103 .302 .557

If we got a game to play today. I'll take The Babe

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:45 pm

gopherhockey33 wrote:its not like bonds hits his homers off college pitchers. hes hitting them off guys that throw 95+ MPH and have curves that break 2 1/2 feet.

Garbage, expansion has made it possible for guys with little more than the ability to throw a a ball 90mph to be in the majors. Very very few can throw it 95+, those that can are largely relievers and only throw an inning at most. Look at the staff ERA's now compared to before Colorado and Arizona came into the league, let alone what the staff ERA's were during Aaaron's run let alone Mantle's or Ruth's.

Add to that San Fransico's ball park is smaller than most High School fields. 309' down the line and it doesn't drop off much from there until past the power alley unlike Fenway.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:31 pm

gopherhockey33 wrote:but he still hasnt been prooven guilty of taking illegal substances. the steriods he took we not illegal so you cant rip on him

Steroids have been illegal in the United States since 1981, the steroids he took (THG) are illegal. The place he got them from (BALCO) had him listed as a customer and the owners of Balco received prison time. No, Bonds hasn't been proven guilty, but you're not correct about much else.

packerboy · Post by **packerboy** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:56 pm

goldy, I agree but there is a lot we dont know. How fast did the top pitchers throw in Ruth's era? Did they change speeds better or were their curve balls as sharp?

When Ruth hit 60 only one other team hit that many.

Is that because the pitchers were better or because there werent any Barry Bonds around?

Ball players, as a groupp , are better today, much better.

ChrisK · Post by **ChrisK** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:05 pm

gopherhockey33 wrote:but he still hasnt been prooven guilty of taking illegal substances. the steriods he took we not illegal so you cant rip on him

And that's a matter of semantics. The use of steroids was illegal in every other sport plus they are illegal in the U.S. unless prescribed by a physician for a medical condition. And based on the increase in his head size, it's also possible that Barry indulged in human growth hormone, which is also illegal without a valid prescription.

In addition to the increase in strength that steroids can provide, they can help the fast-twitch muscles and increase endurance. The last is particularly important because the 162 game season can be a grind and feeling fresh at 140 games into the season can give you an advantage over someone who's not using. It's one of the reasons that amphetamines have been popular among players.

I don't think there's any question that Bonds is a great player but his legacy will forever be tarnished by the steroid suspicions.

goldy313 · Post by **goldy313** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:30 pm

Comparing eras is tough.....on the Braves game last night on TBS they brought up these facts: prior to 1931 if the umpire lost track of the ball it was a foul ball, if the ball left the field of play in fair territory but landed in the stands in foul territory it was a foul - (imagine a ball curves around the foul pole) if you hit what would now be considered a walk off home run it only counted for the bases it took to win the game i.e. if a runner was on second even though the ball left the park you were credited with a double.

Babe Ruth ended his career with 714 home runs, but only the last 4 years of his career were the rules concerning what was and what wasn't a home run the same as what they are now.

HShockeywatcher · Post by **HShockeywatcher** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:25 am

You're not supposed to take a performance enhancer. There isn't a list of what you can and can't take. There may be a list of what they can test for. So don't defend him saying he may be taking something they can't test for. It's still illegal if it's a steroid or acts as one. Just because it can't be proven that he's guilty doesn't mean he's innocent. This is an example of where being innocent until proven guilty sucks. We know he's guilty, we just can't prove it. If he's so innocent like you say gopher, why doesn't he prove it?

He's a jerk to the media and has nothing to say for himself. Having a good OBP because pitchers don't want you to homer off them because you've tainted the sport isn't a good way to have it that way. If his team was any good it might be for a good cause, but his team is 4th to last in the NL. The ONLY reason he's talked about at all is because he's close to this record. Aside from that, there's nothing to talk about the guy; maybe why he's still in a uniform.

Neutron 14 · Post by **Neutron 14** » Thu Jul 26, 2007 5:32 pm

From Fox Sports on MSN...

A day after Barry Bonds called him a "little midget man who knows (nothing) about baseball," broadcaster Bob Costas said he wasn't upset with the San Francisco Giants slugger and responded with a jab of his own.

"As anyone can plainly see, I'm 5-6 1/2 and a strapping 150, and unlike some people, I came by all of it naturally," Costas said Thursday in a telephone interview.

Well done Mr. Costas.