Barry Bonds

[dangla.]

alright i like him i dont think he took steroids im a fan of him and i want him to break hank aaron's record.

[Bash Brother]

You're not gonna be real popular around here.

[Irishmans Shanty]

I don't care enough about the National League or the sanctity of records to really have a strong opinion about Bonds. I believe that steriod use was rampant by 100's of players over many years. I refuse to beat up Bonds because it's too easy. I have doubts about a majority of Jr's and A-Rod's bombs, but they and many, many, many, many, many others seem to avoid the scrutiny only because their head isn't swollen and they aren't near 755 YET.

One thing is for sure, Bonds will break the record and keep hacking. When you see his hands and bat speed from the first base camera at full speed, you can see he isn't close to being done as one of the League's most dangerous hitters. I see it as not the march to 755, but rather 855.

Like I said, I don't like him or hate him, but I have to admit can't help but stay up late to watch those West Coast Giants games.

[NumberCruncher]

Well didn't he say he took steroids but unknowingly? I thought his trainer just gave him steriods and told him to take them without him knowing or something. So it's like: What do we do about all those homers?

I don't mind Bonds as much as everyone else does. A point was brought up that if he was hitting all of these homers for YOUR favorite team, you wouldn't be acting like this and I strongly agree with that. A lot of people like to make signs about how he's ruined baseball and it doesn't do a whole lotta good except obstruct the view of the fan sitting behind you.

[HShockeywatcher]

Okay, Barry Bonds WAS a great player on his own. Was consistently hitting 20+ HRs a season for his first 10 years. His stats were steadily declining, not in a bad way, but as stats do as people age. Then his next ten seasons he was hitting 40+ HRs a season, his body, especially his head like doubled in size and apparently all he's doing is lifting? I'd like to get on that lifting program.

Okay, I've heard that if you aren't diabetic and you take insulin it acts like a steroid. I've heard of many other drugs that act like a steroid if you don't need it. It's also possible that he's been off them for quite some time now. But the simple fact is that one way or another he violated the idea of the rule and should not be eligible for the record. I still don't get why some pitcher doesn't take one for the country and hit him in the knee; he'd be done.

How the hell did he get voted into the All Star game? Sure, he's on the verge of breaking the record, but aside from that what does he have going for him? His OBP? Yeah, just because people don't want him to homer; that doesn't make for an all star. His fielding? I won't even comment on that. He's got nothing and doesn't not deserve to be there, let alone start.

[grindiangrad-80]

Love him or hate him-
Illegal or not-
You still have to hit that little white ball.
He gets one pitch a game, at the most, and does not miss it very often.
Pretty tough to do.

[HShockeywatcher]

That is one thing pitchers have said on ESPN. That they would pitch to him and such, but with an OBP like him obviously pitchers aren't. You're right, you have to hit that little ball. But if you take a good player (like he was, not taking that away from him) and give him roids he'll hit them out of the park instead of doubles and such. Take the Twins for example, you give Moreneau, Mauer, Hunter, Cuddayer, or Kubel whatever Bonds is juicin' up on (that is maybe legal but still against the idea of the rule) and they would be up there. All those single and double RBIs Moreneau and Mauer are getting would now be homers. The twins would be amazing.

Take one for the team. Hit him in the knee.

He was a great player. And he ruined what the had.

[theref]

That's fine, he can break the record. By the time he is finished with his career, A-Rod will have surpassed it anyway. He doesn't even juice, he just whines a lot and is paid too much, but aren't all pro athlethes? (Well except hockey players.)

[goldy313]

Up until the mid 70's the scientific community thought of steroids only as muscle builders not performance enhancers per se. In studies they worked no better than placebos, so unless you were a body builder or a power lifter there was no need to use them. In the late 70's through the 80's steroids became popular in the horse racing community to help race horses recover from injuries, the side effect of steroids was that the horse gained weight thereby slowing them down so the horse racing industry started putting little symbols on the Daily Racing Form indicating that the horse was on steroids and or on Lasix - a diuretic used for horses on steroids so that they wouldn't gain weight.

During this time athletes other than body builders, power lifters, and weight men started using steroids, but the steroids they used were largely horse steroids gotten from vetrenarians. Heck even I tried a cycle in 1984, but being a defensive back the weight gain slowed me down thereby negating any positive gain in muscle mass and strength. That has always been the catch-22 of steroids; how do you gain muscle mass and strength while keeping your quickness.

Chemists worked on this problem and obviously have had some effect because the list of athletes caught using them falls generally into 2 categories: 1) the big and burly - linemen, weight lifters, etc. 2) the small but quick - sprinters. The other thing is that tests to detect steroids are only usefull once the steroid has been out there for a while for a test to be successfully developed. You can't develop a test for a product that doesn't exist. And Chemists have been a couple steps ahead of the "police" in this area for some time. Saying Bonds never tested positive isn't entirely accurate, also Bonds said he would take a test publically but then backed out. Also there is no evidence that Bonds has ever been tested, just a hunch but the last thing MLB wants is Bonds actually tested, the chance he comes up positive would ruin the game. Baseball would then have to admit that not only Bonds but probably a great majority of records from the past 20 years are dirty.

The ironic thing is given the human condition is variable why would some athletes take the risk? Ben Johnson was already one of the fastest men on earth, there is no way to prove steroids helped him take that last .05 of a second of his 100m dash. Same with Barry Bonds, he already was a fantastic hitter, there is no way to prove steroids helped him hit 1 more home run. But they both are guilty of cheating, Johnson by failing a test and Bonds by his own admission.

The scarry part is that even though scientifically you can't prove that steroids helped either Bonds or Johnson in their accomplishments there are thousands of athletes who look at them and people like them and don't see it that way, they only see the success and the link those athletes have with steroids and follow the same path. A real fear has to be that when the truth comes out and it always will there will be a ton of record holders that are dirty. The AP filed a lawsuit this month to make the names from the search warrant in the Jason Grimsley steroid case public. The people most opposed to this are MLB and the MLBPA, why? Because it is rumored that among the names on the list of Grimsley customers are Roger Clemens, Andy Petit, Sammy Sosa, Rafael Palmeiro, and others.

Someday some player will come forward and make a deathbed confession, Lyle Alzado did and it stung the NFL. Unfortunatly Bud Selig will be gone.

[Knowlzee]

Hasn't Jose Canseco already made the confession. It was hardly "deathbed",.....and Alzado's announcent really didn't sting too much either (NFL has much larger problems).

Everyone knows many players use (or have used) steroids,.....do we care,.....not really, it appears?

It is almost as though, people don't care if an athlete wants to risk the quality of life after 40, for the potential glory in their 20's and 30's. And, if they don't care,.....why should we? It's their body (life), right.

Do we consider an athlete that lifts weights more vigorously that the average player in the off season, as cheating? Do we consider an athlete that takes vitamins to improve his body and performance, as cheating? Isn't anything done for improvement beyond what is average, cheating against the other average players?

No, this posts is not about justifying that steriod use is right,....because it is wrong. It is wrong because it is against the rules,.....but should it be against the rules? What responsibility does society have,...or baseball have,....to protect the future quality of life of an individual?

The steriod issue will not damage baseball,.....baseball is much, much bigger than that.

P.S. Personally, I think the small zone (seems about 12" x 12") that Bonds has had throughout his career has been more of an influence in the number of home runs, than steriods. The steriods, however, have probably been an influence to the magnitude (distance).

[HShockeywatcher]

You're right that Canseco admitted taking steroids. But he did them when they were not against the rules and admitted to it.

Everyone is right that many people do use steroids, probably. But we don't want records tainted. Which is why we only really care about people that are "amazing" using.

It is my understanding that they are illegal as a safety measure and because they are illegal. I could be wrong and there is probably partially because of the "taintedness" but steroids are illegal period, so they wouldn't be allowed for players to use, and then they are also because of looking out for the well being of the players.

The thing I don't get is what Bonds has to say for what has happened. Knowlzee can say that he could just be lifting more and hitting another, but the trend he followed isn't one that you would (read my earlier post) without some form of help. And if he is totally legit, he should just come out and market his work out program cuz I would love to get that much stronger.

When they have pitchers talk on ESPN and such shows they ask if they'd pitch to him. A typical response is "no matter how strong, he still has to hit the little ball." Totally true. But no one is debating the great player he was. But being that much stronger can be the difference between a ball being caught in the outfield and being over the fence.

All in all, players shouldn't be allowed to use a performance enhancer that isn't containing of naturally occurring in the body ingredients. If they do, they are breaking the rules of their job (which is what it is), they should be fined and not let to play professional baseball again.

[Knowlzee]

For the record,....Knowlzee did not say, "he could just be lifting more". Whether Bonds has admitted it or not, or ever will, doesn't matter,.....everyone KNOWS he has. Can or will it ever be proved,.....who knows,.....who cares?

However, if Barry Bonds doesn't care about the risk that his heart may explode in the future,......why should we? Why should baseball? Why should society?

Frankly, if the irresponsible media would focus a little more on the lives of steroid user after their prime, rather than on the magnificent home runs,....this problem may be nonexistant.

P.S. Watcher, please, if you are going to use Knowlzee in your posts,....get it right, or don't use it. Knowlzee doesn't appreciate being a false part of your mumbo jumbo.

[HShockeywatcher]

Knowlzee, I wasn't quoting you or putting you down, but it was something you said. But if you're going to ask something of someone else maybe you should do the same yourself first.

Good point about what the media should be focused on, which was my point initially. Bonds was a great player before the roids. Maybe could've held on long enough to be close to where he is now without them, who knows? But the point is when things started going REALLY well for him.

[boblee]

I'm just going to say I would have rather seen Ken Griffey Jr. stay healthy and challenge Hank.

[HShockeywatcher]

Yeah, this is true. Maybe he'll still be able to get close. He looks good. And then there's A Rod who most definitely will just breeze by the record in a bit if he stays healthy. Maybe he'll do it in a Twins uniform

[rbkhockey]

i could see A rod hitting 1000 in his career.

[tomASS]

Bring back Harmon!

[Goldy Gopher]

That's fine, he can break the record. By the time he is finished with his career, A-Rod will have surpassed it anyway. He doesn't even juice, he just whines a lot and is paid too much, but aren't all pro athlethes? (Well except hockey players.)

No pro athlete is overpaid. If you've ever taken any sort of economics class you would know that.

[theref]

Actually, I've taken two economic classes, though they weren't at the U so they probably weren't up to your standards. Don't believe that we'd ever gone over inflated salaries. For the amount of work they do compared to some people, they make way too much money.

Of course since you want to talk economically about it, yes, owners do make lots of money of the marketability of the players, which comes from us the consumer, so since we are all so dumb to pay $100 to watch the Wild win a defensive battle 1-0 against some team with no real stars, we are the fools and they should make the kind of money they do. Is that the point you were so arrogantly trying to make?

Wow, guess you probably thought I was just another dumb ref. Talk about people underpaid. If I had to listen to a bunch of millionaires bitching like they do in the NBA or the way Sid the Kid does, I'd request twice what any of the players make.

[HShockeywatcher]

Wow, this topic has taken a major turn. I think someone should just down his throat for changing the topic since no one but myself is ever guilty of doing that.

As for athletes being overpaid, BASEketball did it right. Probably one of the only ones to do it. Well, I could say tennis or golf too. But yes, you can find ways with economics to argue that athletes can get money, a lot of it at that. Anyone who has taken who knows the classic example of say why day care providers will make $12 an hour and doctors a lot. Or athletes, since doctors may deserve it. But that doesn't mean it's right just because it's there.

[Neutron 14]

I think Bonds should have an ass trick next to all his records.

[HShockeywatcher]

I think no one should've hired him back. Just my opinion. He seems like a jerk and the only reason they have him is because he's so close to the HR record. Aside from that, what value is he to the team? He's not helping them get to the playoffs. He sucks in the outfield. The only reason his OBP is so high is because he has been walked almost twice as many times as the guy with the 2nd most walks. I guess he's a money maker because he seems to put fans in the seats, but couldn't his salary (not sure what it is) have been put to much better use? Just my two cents.

[SotaH0ck14]

Love him or hate him-
Illegal or not-
You still have to hit that little white ball.
He gets one pitch a game, at the most, and does not miss it very often.
Pretty tough to do.

couldn't agree with you more
and also note that little white thing is coming at an average of 90 miles per hour... how long does it take a ball to travel 70 feet at 90 mph?
exactly my point.. you still have to react and hit the ball with or without steroids

[rbkhockey]

70? dude come on. i get your point but its not really even close to 70 feet.

[HShockeywatcher]

If it's right in the middle, it would be 63.6 feet. Close enough.

We've been over this plenty of times before. He was a great player before he started using. Yes, he still has to hit the ball, but the ones he makes contact with will go farther when you're stronger. A perfect example is Mornaeu's pop fly to center last night that with 4 more feet would've given us a chance last night.

Yes you still have to hit the ball, but what you do with it is much different.