NDP Hon. Men.

[ghshockeyfan]

OK - this is the way I think is appropriate to give positive feedback about those players that you feel were deserving of consideration but didn't quite make the cut.

I'll save mine for now as I'm truly biased on some. We can't look at career alone, so hopefully if you mention someone you'll have actually watched the tryout and believe that that warranted mention vs. bias or career. Or, if you have a player in mind that didn't go to Phase 1, it would be good to know if these players weren't at Phase 1 due to actually declining the opportunity or if a Sr might have been too old (88's are too old).

[rwb1351]

I'll give it a go.

Out of the East 89/90, i am slightly appalled at the goalie selection. Altmann was best of site, yet Grogan, who played injured, got selected.

So i suppose my HM choice would be Altmann.

Nothing against Grogan, but her injury def. showed in her tryout so i had assumed they would go in a different direction.

[boblee]

North '92 Honorable Mention:

Goalie Bessie Havel (GRG)

[xwildfan]

Agree about Altmann. She played great. Also, surprised that Berreman didn't advance. I think both of these players will receive D1 scholarships and be prime examples that a player does not have to be a NDT player to be a D1 player.

[ghshockeyfan]

Did Altmann and Berreman advance past P1 before?

[rwb1351]

Did Altmann and Berreman advance past P1 before?

I want to say Altmann advanced last year, but i could be mistaken.

[xwildfan]

I think Altmann advanced to P2 last year; I'm also pretty sure she allowed the fewest goals by a substatntial margin and still was not selected to go to Rochester.

[falcons89]

Did Kacy Ambroz or Taylor Jenkins Tryout? Looks like some very talented groups.

[ghshockeyfan]

I think Altmann advanced to P2 last year; I'm also pretty sure she allowed the fewest goals by a substatntial margin and still was not selected to go to Rochester.

I want to say that both Altmann and Berreman were P2 last year. I'd have to go back and check the lists though to be certain... If so, and both go D1, they still hold to the idea that it's a pretty safe bet that kids don't go D1 if they don't at least achieve P2+ (if not P3/NY).

[hshockeyfan91]

Eagan's Grogan and Altmann have to be the best 1-2 goalie combination in the state - both are outstanding goalies. Alyssa Grogan absolutely deserves to move on to P2 - she is one of the best goalies I've seen in the past year. But Altmann could easily have been there too.

I also agree on Lisa Berreman. When I didn't see her name on the P2 list I assumed she must not have tried out. I am very surprised that she didn't get selected. I have seen her play a number of times. She is big, strong, fast, sees the game well, a good stickhandler, etc. In other words, I would absolutely want her to be one of my defenders if I was putting together a team. The East must have 6 unbelievably good defenders for Berreman not to have made P2.

[Bensonmum]

I'm breaking the rules since I didn't see the tryouts, but it would be shocking to me if any of the following players tried out and didn't make it:

Marlee Wheelhouse JR Crookston
Liz Orke JR Wayzata
Kari Hunter JR Kennedy
Rachel Ripley JR Farmington
Kayla Capistrant FR Roseville
Ellen Swinkowski JR Breck

Anything can happen at tryouts, but these would seem to be slam dunks.

[Melvin44]

Kayla Capistrant was on vacation and didn't try out. Others who weren't at tryouts who I feel were deserving.

Lisa Turri
Amanda Cartone
Cassandra Solomen

All from Stillwater all played 92 selects 2+ years with my daughter and were not at phase 1. All play hard heads up hockey and are great kids.

I'm not from Stillwater but like how they play.

[Sioux Rule]

I think Altmann advanced to P2 last year; I'm also pretty sure she allowed the fewest goals by a substatntial margin and still was not selected to go to Rochester.

I want to say that both Altmann and Berreman were P2 last year. I'd have to go back and check the lists though to be certain... If so, and both go D1, they still hold to the idea that it's a pretty safe bet that kids don't go D1 if they don't at least achieve P2+ (if not P3/NY).

That is a crock!! I, along with others, don't agree with that assment at all. There are players out there who will play D1 without making P2 tryouts.
Some players are lousy, "practice," players but put them in a "game situation" and you would think it was a totally different player, they excell. I'm not sure how the "grading" system works to advance beyond P1 to P2, but I think there's plenty of parents/fans out there that will agree with me when I say when it comes to the P2 tryouts, it's VERY POLITICAL. Don't tell me otherwise! I know of players whom did not make it through the P2 tryout, yet are an all-state player and a player who can carry a team........so I hope no one is going to tell me it's not POLITICAL, at least not in part!!!!! To say that you will most likely not play D1 if you do not make it to the P2 tryout is a crock! I also know of girls who WILL NOT tryout for this program. You do not need this program to further your hockey career. If you're good enough, D1 coaches WILL FIND YOU!!
So, girls, if you do not make it to P2, do not give up on your hockey career.[/url]

[xwildfan]

Totally agree with Sioux Rule. Also, I always wondered how do you put previous quotes in the white boxes? Obviously, I don't work with WP programs too much.

[Sioux Rule]

Totally agree with Sioux Rule. Also, I always wondered how do you put previous quotes in the white boxes? Obviously, I don't work with WP programs too much.

Just click on the "quote" button on the upper right corner of the box of the quote you want to include.

[Sioux Rule]

I'm breaking the rules since I didn't see the tryouts, but it would be shocking to me if any of the following players tried out and didn't make it:

Marlee Wheelhouse JR Crookston
Liz Orke JR Wayzata
Kari Hunter JR Kennedy
Rachel Ripley JR Farmington
Kayla Capistrant FR Roseville
Ellen Swinkowski JR Breck

Anything can happen at tryouts, but these would seem to be slam dunks.

There are no "slam dunks" when it comes to this program.
For example, I know of a set of twins who were automatically put into the P2 tryouts (couple of years ago) because they couldn't make it to the P1 tryouts. So, tell me again how "fair," the NDP tryouts are again?!

[ghshockeyfan]

I'm breaking the rules since I didn't see the tryouts, but it would be shocking to me if any of the following players tried out and didn't make it:

Marlee Wheelhouse JR Crookston
Liz Orke JR Wayzata
Kari Hunter JR Kennedy
Rachel Ripley JR Farmington
Kayla Capistrant FR Roseville
Ellen Swinkowski JR Breck

Anything can happen at tryouts, but these would seem to be slam dunks.

There are no "slam dunks" when it comes to this program.
For example, I know of a set of twins who were automatically put into the P2 tryouts (couple of years ago) because they couldn't make it to the P1 tryouts. So, tell me again how "fair," the NDP tryouts are again?!

I did not know this happened. Are we sure they didn't try out in a different P1 region???

[falcons89]

You must be referring to the Shattuck twins. Very talented and probably two of the best in the state. I do not know whether they tried out or not either.

However; it will be interesting to see whether P2+ s are the only ones that get D1 full rides. I assume GHShockeyfan refers that sometime in their career they were P2+. I am more familiar with this Junior group of girls than the others, so out of curiousity, I will be seeing if any break this mold. I know for a fact, (not hear say, from career contacts), that some of the girls listed , that did not qualify this year, will be getting offers July 1.
You are right, that many college scouts see players differently, as do all scouts. I believe that the root of good college/professional teams, is superior scouting. It is being able to pick the right players.

[Sioux Rule]

I'm breaking the rules since I didn't see the tryouts, but it would be shocking to me if any of the following players tried out and didn't make it:

Marlee Wheelhouse JR Crookston
Liz Orke JR Wayzata
Kari Hunter JR Kennedy
Rachel Ripley JR Farmington
Kayla Capistrant FR Roseville
Ellen Swinkowski JR Breck

Anything can happen at tryouts, but these would seem to be slam dunks.

There are no "slam dunks" when it comes to this program.
For example, I know of a set of twins who were automatically put into the P2 tryouts (couple of years ago) because they couldn't make it to the P1 tryouts. So, tell me again how "fair," the NDP tryouts are again?!

I did not know this happened. Are we sure they didn't try out in a different P1 region???

95% sure they didn't. If I remember right, I believe they were in a out of state tournament at the time of P1 tryouts. I believe they asked for some kind of variance to skip P1, and received it.

[ghshockeyfan]

There are no "slam dunks" when it comes to this program.
For example, I know of a set of twins who were automatically put into the P2 tryouts (couple of years ago) because they couldn't make it to the P1 tryouts. So, tell me again how "fair," the NDP tryouts are again?!

I did not know this happened. Are we sure they didn't try out in a different P1 region???

95% sure they didn't. If I remember right, I believe they were in a out of state tournament at the time of P1 tryouts. I believe they asked for some kind of variance to skip P1, and received it.

That "out-of-state" tourney may have been called "nationals..." And so maybe they did get a pass to P2, which, we could argue, is maybe better than a free pass straight from nowhere (i.e. not even P1 or nomination) to NY/P3 via at large???

But, again, I don't want to speculate about what happened. I know the first year the twins played they made it to P2 as I was there and laughed at how weak the N team would be that year. I wish I could find the roster as that team won the whole event and had some of the best names that we now recognize as some of the very best players. Funny how that works, but the point is that they were P2+ that first year. Now, the 2nd year & 3rd year (the last two) I assume are the issue as far as the claim that they didn't skate P1. And, this leads me to ask if maybe there wasn't some direction from USA H or Olympic coach re: the situaiton, and again, I'm still not sold that they may not have had a tryout in another region before being placed on the P2 team...

[ghshockeyfan]

You must be referring to the Shattuck twins. Very talented and probably two of the best in the state. I do not know whether they tried out or not either.

However; it will be interesting to see whether P2+ s are the only ones that get D1 full rides. I assume GHShockeyfan refers that sometime in their career they were P2+. I am more familiar with this Junior group of girls than the others, so out of curiousity, I will be seeing if any break this mold. I know for a fact, (not hear say, from career contacts), that some of the girls listed , that did not qualify this year, will be getting offers July 1.
You are right, that many college scouts see players differently, as do all scouts. I believe that the root of good college/professional teams, is superior scouting. It is being able to pick the right players.

My guess is that the SSM twins could not tryout and likely count on an At-Large if they really wanted to, but, they seem to have followed/respected the process as best they can. I don't think we know for certain what actually happened, so before I start to claim that they've been given special treatment I will reserve that judgement and statement for some actual proof.

As to the D1 claim, again, this is more an observation that should make a ton of logical sense to those that think about it. Is it 100%? Maybe for certain classes of kids, etc., but there are always exceptions I'm sure. I think that some just may have unrealistic ideas about playing D1. I encourage all my kids to shoot for the very top, but I also tell them the indicators and realistic stats on what the odds are and that they NEED TO BE PREPARED TO N O T make D1 posibily. I also though explain to them that they likely won't regret working as hard as they can to see how far they can go and what they can achieve. But, I think we need to be realistic as well. Don't set a kid/family up to have unrealistic expectations of if they work hard that they will for sure be D1, etc. I think it's fair to say that NDP is a good indicator of D1 possibility based on how far you make it at any point over your career.

[OntheEdge]

As with anything in life there politics and people who try to work the system. I have heard stories and I have seen the tryouts. Obviously there are some funny things happening and nothing is perfect. My observations lead me to believe: (1) girls that have had a good reputation in the past get more votes than late bloomers; (2) overall the P1 group was very good and only the bottom 5-7 players were open to question; and (3) at least at the 92 level, girls that played high school had more opportunity than the girls that didn't.

I also think some great players were missing for whatever reason (e.g. not selected, conflict in schedule, didn't care). We just have to deal with it the best we can. In my opinion mistakes are made. I disagree with GHS when he says that the best end up at P3. As with any athletic venue, the best are the ones performing at D1 etc not the wanna bees. What was Tom Brady of the Patriots, a seventh round draft choice? Judging talent is imperfect.

What I don't like is for people to talk about chances of making it to D1 or D3 based on how you did in P1, P2, or P3. Especially at the younger levels, no one knows how different girls are going to develop. People have a difference in opinion on talent. Also, there are a lot of college programs that want girls that are academic superstars as well as good hockey players. Not everyone needs to be on the first line and scholarships are limited. Most programs want good players that are well rounded students.

Fortunately, I believe that there is more opportunity for girl hockey players with academic talents as well as hockey talent to play at D1 or D3, then is true for the boys. Do you think the Ivy league is going to pursue many B students with average SATs? I think there are lots of factors to consider before someone can make the call about a college career.

So lets chill out. NDP doesn't determine your lot in life or your daughter's lot in life. For those with the opportunity, congratulations. For those who weren't selected its disappointing but what can you do? Nothing except that your daughter can keep working hard and have fun playing hockey. My daughter wants to play college hockey, a worthy goal to which I will try to help her, but I'm more proud that she is an academic superstar with a bright future, with or without hockey.

[ghshockeyfan]

If I had to propose a few considerations moving forward that I've heard voiced to me:

1) Possibility of Open Tryout to get all the U14 & HS "15's" on the ice together as this group seems to be the toughest to compare? My thought - This is based on age/youth (harder to pick when they're young obviously) and also due to the nerves I think (some get too nervous even at P1) - as well as the meshing of HS/U14 experienced kids.

2) Consider the value of having current Seniors. My thought - My guess is that we are losing sight of this as an identification process so when people propose this - removing seniors - they also forget that those current seniors are still probably in the running for Olympic/USA consideration and they are "young" by those standards. I have mixed emotions on this one as a result as while some want the current seniors NOT to be involved as they think it hinders the progression of underclassmen, I also realize, again, that seniors are still young in the Olympic/USA/Nat'l context and some "late bloomers" may develop into that level of player I suppose between a solid NDP showing and the end of their college career?

3) Would there be value in an open pre-P1 tryout at all age levels to give those that may feel they were missed from P1 selection a chance to tryout for a final few spots held aside for players that do this open tryout? My thought - This may end a lot of the procedural complaints I suppose, or create more, relative to how you get to P1. This way, no one can say the nomination/road to P1 is what did them in??? This proposal seems to mesh the current selection process to determine the majority of P1 participants plus a small number of open tryout spots for P1...


I want to be clear, this is just hockey. No child or parent should use this to determine their kid's future I don't believe, and NDP as a 15 year old is NOT what is going to make or break the rest of any kid's young life. I will say it once more though, I don't think that many realize how hard it is to be a D1 athlete. This is no different for women, nor for hockey, etc. The odds are against everyone from the start just as there are so few spots to begin with and so many going after those spots from around the WORLD and not just in the North America, the US, or even in MN for that matter.

I often get asked what is the best indicator of potential success re: playing D1 hockey. I still believe that the NDP is a good measuring stick. And, for now, I'll stick by the observation that it seems there is a logical connection between advancing past P1 (if not to P3) AT SOME POINT IN A PLAYER'S CAREER and the odds of playing D1. And, let's remember, that this observation is based on the Player's Career, and not just the first year (15's) or any single year in-between that and graduation.

Re: Best getting to P3 always... I agree that there are differences in what different people look for, and we all see these things differently (thank goodness). Thus, this will always be an opinion. So, it all depends on how we each see it I guess. But if the NDP opinion is that you never move past P1, the odds of D1 are not good.

Lastly, I had 35 kids in my hockey program last year (counting 2 managers). All but 5 were on the B honor roll or higher. Over half were A honor roll students I believe. This is what is most important, hopefully quite common, and many programs far exceed this even. "Student-Athlete" is phrased as such for a certain reason (order of words - student before athlete). Similarly, I think we all strive to create winners in the classroom, community, as well as on the playing field (probably something closer to that order too might I add). I would also hope that we're getting kids to follow a certain priority list in life. It would seem that physical health, family & faith, as well as education/academics should all come before athletics. To me, this is the point of HS athletics, to teach these things as well as many of the life lessons that will guide our kids through their adult lives. NDP, College athletics, state championships, winning, statistics, and everything else are just the "icing on the cake" I believe and entirely secondary. It's unfortunate that we don't recognize academic excellence as much as we place emphasis on athletics. Can you imagine if we spent as much effort, time, and money on emphasizing and improving our kids academics as we do their athletics? Not as much "fun" though I suppose would be the argument...

[spr air 210]

Cassi Carpenter comes to mind as an 1988/89 p2 goalie last year from the East but didn't have the opportunity to try out do to a separated shoulder injury in early january. That would have made the goalie situation more interesting.

[jumpstart]

Hon. Mention from 92 East: Melissa Doyle. Had a great tryout in all sessions -- worked very hard. Thought she should have had a shot at Phase II.