Should they get rid of the HEP point?

[demongoed]

otherguy-
Sounds like those teams did well, but I assure you that, especially this year, whether or not a team retained a HEP point was heavily determined by who was reffing, not necessarily by the quality of play. In D6, there were many games, especially at the beginning of the season, where 10-20 penalties were called. I have to say, towards the end of the season, far fewer were called, probably a combination of greater compliance by teams and an easing up by the refs on those minor infractions.

I like the idea of dangerous, injury-potential penalties being the ones that decide HEP. Let the others just be penalties. I'm sure we've all seen games in past years where certain teams have been unnecessarily rough, even dangerously so. I've seen less of this these past two years and that's good. What's not good is taking away the flow of the game and the legitimate physical play simply to get an extra point.

[findme]

In response to theotherguy...in my District the top 4 B1 teams have the same record-two teams are 15-1-1 and the other two are 15-2-0 so your arguement has lost all its crediability. The only thing that seperates these teams in the final standings is FFP's. And I also can assure you that whether or not a team retained a FFP was heavily determined by who was reffing-not by quality of play. Take for instance that there were 4-5 teams at the very end of the year that were on the bubble of whether or not their team would make playoffs. It all came down to FFP's.

In defense of UWhockey88-there is an issue with FFP's. (period) Mn Hockey and the District Representatives will not consider the opinions of the coaches or anyone involved with youth hockey before or after making decisions. The last thing we need is "a violation system." I bet the CEO of Medtronics did not walk into the operating room and tell the heart surgeon to change the way he does open heart surgery!!

[QuackerTracker]

Take for instance that there were 4-5 teams at the very end of the year that were on the bubble of whether or not their team would make playoffs. It all came down to FFP's.

And you blame this on the refs? ok then

[tomASS]

Actually the referees are caught in the middle of the system.

Referees have control over what they call and interpret to be penalities.

They have no control over the implementation, reward, or deduction of the hep point. If they are thinking about teams losing hep points and it is influencing their calls then the hep point has another disadvantage attached to it.


The hep point system is the cause of problems - not the referees. Now the inconsistencies of interpretation and application of the new levels of enforcement have caused the FFP system to be more unfair in how it rewards and penalizes team. We can blame the referees, but in actuallity the system did not adjust to the level of new enforcement and plan for the level of inconsistency.

It's like having 3 of your 4 wheels on 18 inch rims and one on a 15 inch rim - it will eventually cause you major problems if driven in that condition too long.

the other guy said, "Mayo Clinic is involved to try to reduce the number of injuries and increase the skill level of hockey".

I can see why they would have a concern for the injuries side, but why would the Mayo have any interest in skill development? Or was that statement just mis-written?

[QuackerTracker]

Referees have control over what they call and interpret to be penalities.

If they are thinking about teams losing hep points and it is influencing their calls then the hep point has another disadvantage attached to it.

First line - but it should be more cut an dry now what is and is not a penalty. From what I have seen/heard/read it is getting more (not completly) consistant.

Second Line - I hope most refs don't know/care about the total penalties needed for this. I was told from a former WCHA ref to never count total penalties and just call what you see. It can be very hard after 3-4 penalties in a row on one team but you really need to do it. I can tell you that when I am done with a game I will have no idea how many penalties I called cause it is not the job of the refs to worry about totals. Just to call what he sees. Any ref who does not call penalties cause a team might lose a fair play point has not buisness being on the ice!

[tomASS]

Referees have control over what they call and interpret to be penalities.

If they are thinking about teams losing hep points and it is influencing their calls then the hep point has another disadvantage attached to it.

First line - but it should be more cut an dry now what is and is not a penalty. From what I have seen/heard/read it is getting more (not completly) consistant.

Second Line - I hope most refs don't know/care about the total penalties needed for this. I was told from a former WCHA ref to never count total penalties and just call what you see. It can be very hard after 3-4 penalties in a row on one team but you really need to do it. I can tell you that when I am done with a game I will have no idea how many penalties I called cause it is not the job of the refs to worry about totals. Just to call what he sees. Any ref who does not call penalties cause a team might lose a fair play point has not buisness being on the ice!

1) all except interference - still way too much disparity of what is and isn't called which led me to my second comment/consideration.

2) I would agree with experience referees like yourself but the less experience ref might let this thought float through their mind a little more often. You guys claim to be human. I believe you guys to be human most of the time so it is something that could come across the mind especially if you have a coach talking about it. I think that is why the interference call might be so inconsistent, because of the bigger leeway a referee has in applying his interpretation of that penalty. I say that because it is the call that has had the largest degree of inconsistency this year.

just remember I'm supporting the referees as not being the cause of the FPP problem.

[findme]

QuakerTracker,

Did I SAY I blamed the officials? The HEP point is the cause of the problems.

The issue is that 4-5 teams were dependent upon a FFP to advance to the playoffs. The issue is that the refs are caught in the middle and the issue is the interpretation of penalties and the enforcement from one game to another is very inconsistent! That is were teams like the 4-5 I addressed earlier get into trouble.

Unfortunetly, Mn Hockey has not given the officials the proper training and/or support to institute a change like this. Like I stated earlier-would the CEO from Medtronics (quote from theotherguy) walk into the operating room and tell the heart surgeon to change the way he does open heart surgery? That is what Mn Hockey has done to the Officials, the Associations, the coaches and expecially the players.

[whockeyguy]

just look at all the ways to change this from people,, lets do it the simple way MOST GOALS WINS...... end of story and end of fair play. enough is enough

[QuackerTracker]

QuakerTracker,

Did I SAY I blamed the officials? The HEP point is the cause of the problems.

The issue is that 4-5 teams were dependent upon a FFP to advance to the playoffs. The issue is that the refs are caught in the middle and the issue is the interpretation of penalties and the enforcement from one game to another is very inconsistent! That is were teams like the 4-5 I addressed earlier get into trouble.

Unfortunetly, Mn Hockey has not given the officials the proper training and/or support to institute a change like this.You must have enought time then to train officials? You could take 2 weeks off of work before the season to teach them? It's a part time job for AMATURE youth hockey. No one has the time to run the proper training classes to teach things the way you want them to. Unless you pay a few thousand dollars more for your kid to play hockey and we can do this full time, which I would love...

The teams that missed the playoff cause of a few points maybe should have won more games and then they would not have to worry about the FPP. I don't like the rule, and any time a coach says something about it to me I play stupid like I don't know what they are talking about cause I just don't care about them.

[Stealth]

Does allot of the comments on here deal with Bantam A?

The kids training to are faster now a days.
Why not go with TWO Ref's and one linesman like in high school for Bantam A.
Keep all the other levels the same way they are. Note: For example, Bantam B the Two officails which can call anything anyway allready.

Drop the HEP, then call it with the enforcement of the rules and if need be penalize a team to the rule book. Not to the system of HEP.
It will take a year to cleanse the system like Pro hockey. But educate the inforcement of consistancy in the Ref's and the coaches/kids will need ajust / educate at the team level. Not vibrate about a fair play point recking the year, compared to our team took too many penialty calls against us. We are our own worst enemy thought.

One ref cannot keep up with the calls ahead of the play (racing down to determine if it's a goal or not) and defenatly not behind the play at the same time.

[QuackerTracker]

Why not go with TWO Ref's and one linesman like in high school for Bantam A.

This is the worst system for reffing hockey. If you think that calls are inconsisten from game to game at the Bantam level now then you would be in for a shock. First the officiating in high school is terible (all you have to do is show up for a 2 hour meeting and they never find out if a guy can acctually skate) and second the calls are inconsistant from ref to ref and guys at the high school level or youth level are not good enough to work together this way.

Keep all the other levels the same way they are. Note: For example, Bantam B the Two officails which can call anything anyway allready.

Bantam B2 uses the 2 man system. B1 uses the 3 man system. In my district 6.

One ref cannot keep up with the calls ahead of the play (racing down to determine if it's a goal or not) and defenatly not behind the play at the same time.

I think you may be confused on what the ref does in this situation. If there is a fast breakaway or odd man rush coming from a zone the linesman is responsible to go to the goal line and signal the goal for the ref. But at least you did not call him the head ref... [/quote]

[live for hockey]

i say just get rid of it because it is not going to change the way teams play and it doesnt refelect the best team.

[inthebox]

hep is pretty unfair. tartan went 12-1-1 in districts and mv went 11-3 and got the #1 seed for playoffs.

[tomASS]

I agree with Quacker about the 2 man referee system.
It sucks in soccer and it would suck in hockey.

I hated refereeing soccer in a two man system, because you could easily have two stories going on at the same time.

[theotherguy]

What if the HEP Committee changed their scoring to lower the number of menalty minutes but count only the "injury potential" penalties? Holding and Interference would not count against your HEP minutes. This way you wouldn't lose a FPP over a bench minor because you got caught with an extra skater on the ice.

[sniper96369]

i think they should get rid of the hep point because we would of been first in our district nd won the regular season if it wasnt for the hep poit

[wingman]

Demongoed said it best back on 2/11/2006--it has now become even more inconsistent and seeding is affected. If anyone saw District 2 in November and then again at the Playoffs in Feb, it was so apparent that in and of itself it has become the "unfair" play point. Case in point, I watched a WCHA calibur ref at Dist.2 peewee and bantam play, call what was easily a call in Novmeber, then in Feb., he called a penalty and everyone was like "what the ..." and then exactly 2 minutes later a player with out the puck is hauled down in front of him and he lets it go('Hauled down is being very very -VERY conservative). Now even though this paticular ref has no business refing peewee's let alone WCHA, he at least has the experience(or one would be so incline to agree by looking at his resume) yet even he can't call it consistent. Obstruction is ....ed if it isn't consistent. Case in point --off the face offs alone they (all refs) never called it like the 'USA VIDEO' portrayed it to be called except in the first week of the season. Again---and you let that decide districts, which decides seeding, which gives unfair advantage. It was poorly adminstered. LASTLY and MORE IMPORTANT THAN ALL THOSE ....heads that need to make more rules to insure their own jobs, if your going to do something that all of you knew was going to slow the game down, why not ad the 'TOUCH UP' offsides??? Makes no sense AT ALL!!!! I supose they'll say that peewee's is too young to use it--yea thats why they use it all over america in AAA tourneys at ages younger than minnesota peewee's. It makes for a fantastically fast game. And on top of it--the refs can't control it like they can inconsistent obstruction.

[slapper5]

I hate that rule