tomASS wrote:typical MN attitude - everybody deserves a point ........or a gold star
I think it was sarcasm (I had to read it twice before concluding this).
But your earlier point about game ejection for a dangerous check is right on. Another way to eliminate reckless play and injury would be to call contact to the head as it is already written in the rule book. There are way too many forearm smashes to the cage in youth hockey and not enough of a premium on the skill of checking with shoulders and hips. Unlike the obstructions, USAH/MinnHockey will have to take the lead on this one because it is not a prevalent problem in the NHL -- they have the old school means of dealing with this problem
The fair play point is an indirect solution and indirect solutions do not work in the long run (see recent thread on stop signs). The penalty is the time served for the infraction. Call the game as the rules are written and things will be fine on the ice. Spend the HEP energy and $$$ on education and awareness for players, coaches, officials and parents. The video that introduced the new standard of play was very well done and educated a lot of people -- same thing could and should be done for dangerous play.
Last edited by PanthersIn2011 on Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And don't come up with something stupid like "AFTER THE 14th MINUTE PENILTY YOU PLACE TWO PLAYERS IN THE BOX TO GIVE CLEAN TEAM A 5 ON 3!" "AFTER THE 20th MINUTE YOU DO THE SAME AGAIN, 5 ON 3"
Do have on question thou? Has the number of injuries gone down?
Does any other sport have a screwed up system like this ? MOST GOALS WIN........................... end of story...................this has to be the most STUPID thing anybody in sports has thought up, but then again it came from the same people who gave us the STOP patch and the BLUE puck, what will be next is really what people should be worried about. how a point for best decor by hockey moms
Fair play points take away from hockey's physicalness, not all teams are built for speed, and those teams struggle now because they are picking up more penalties with the new rules, which eventully will make them lose a point. I think they need to get rid of them all together, or AT LEAST raise the amount of penalties a team can get before losing their point.
whockeyguy wrote:Does any other sport have a screwed up system like this ? MOST GOALS WIN........................... end of story...................this has to be the most STUPID thing anybody in sports has thought up, but then again it came from the same people who gave us the STOP patch and the BLUE puck, what will be next is really what people should be worried about. how a point for best decor by hockey moms
Too funny and too correct!
next thing we know they will want the teams to hold hands at the end of the game and sing Kumbya (sp? since I never sing it)
yes the blue puck is USA , but like other things MN Hockey does not have to go along with it, {ex. age classes} and i do believe the higher upsthought this was so great when introduced . and some still do
Age classification - MN Hockeypeewees are actually registered as bantams, bantams as midgets.
It is not as easy to by-pass USA Hockey as some think.
Blue Puck issue has gone back and forth in mandatory for squirts, recommended, etc....
As far as using them in mites, MN Hockey does not have mites traveling all over playing in sanctioned events. So what the local association does for practice and in-house games is their business, not USA Hockey or Mn Hockey when it ocmes to practice/house games.
Upon talking with a District Bantam Director last week he indicated that no one likes the FFP's however they are here to stay. This director proceded to inform us that HEP is based on a Mayo Clinic study and there are "stats" that show that penalties and injuries have been reduced from game one of this season to the last. After suggesting that maybe the FFP's weigh too heavily upon the final standings and that all officials are human and make mistakes and possibly there needs to be some kind of accountability with these officials we were told by this Director that he thinks reducing the 2/10 (checking from behind) to a 2/2 penality is a good idea because if a team gets a 2/10 early in a game then they only have one more penalty b/f they lose their FFP. WHAT?? How about official training and accountability or adjusting the FFP penalties or getting rid of the FFP? Or how about admitting that MN Hockey has micro managed this game to the point that it is almost an embarrassement. FYI-this Director has never played hockey in his life and he sits on the Mn Hockey Hep Committe and will be introducing the 2/2 penality at the next meeting!
Last edited by UWhockey88 on Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I would like to know where they get these "stats". I have a hard time believing that penalties are down this year, also, how are they able to track reduction of injuries, last I checked they don't put them on the scoresheets. My feeling is that this is all made up BS from the powers at be in order to keep this unnecessary program going.
Again, a word to MN hockey, ask the coaches for imput before making these game changing decisions.
I look at it this way! Should 3 tripping and 3 hooking penalty's have that much impact on the game? There is no way that a team should loose a point because of these infractions. Checking from behind, Roughing, Fighting ... Yes you should loose a point of there is a certain number of these infractions. But come on IT IS A SPORT. I know of coaches who have purposely chose to loose their fair play point. Not in a violent way but in getting penaltys in the ways of Trips and hooks. WHY you may ask? Well how about at the end of the year a coach looks at the standings and says if we win and get our fair play point we will finish in Spot # 3 but coach likes the idea of finishing in the 5 spot because of who will finish there because the team in the # 4 spot is a weaker team but is a team that got all or a majority of it's fair play points.
DumpandChase1 wrote:I would like to know where they get these "stats". I have a hard time believing that penalties are down this year, also, how are they able to track reduction of injuries, last I checked they don't put them on the scoresheets. My feeling is that this is all made up BS from the powers at be in order to keep this unnecessary program going.
Again, a word to MN hockey, ask the coaches for imput before making these game changing decisions.
yep i could tell a long winded soccer example but the bottom line. Let the people that know the game, who support and respect its past and want to help improve the present make the decisions in the best interest of the sport. If soccer hadn't done that, today's players would now all be required to wear padded headgear and shoot the ball against padded goal posts. Thank god the soccer moms didn't win those battles! Hey the goal posts are hard! don't run into them and if you do it will hurt.
boy did those headgear manufacturers ( one inventor being a non-soccer playing doctor) initially sell the national soccer associstion a bill of B as in B and S as in S.
How you coaches liking the helmets because of a few incidents?
We all know the fair play came from the money that Mayo threw out to a leech{MN Hockey}, but now to say the penalties are down , what a joke,.. anybody remember the new rules of enforcement this year,,, Next question is how you can have a scientific study when you change the perimeters during your study,,,,, we all talk about crazy parents in hockey but maybe the so called leaders should look in the mirror because they are the old crazed parent, but they hide behind their title and never get out to the rink any longer. Elliot i sympothize with you on this one,, how can one get some of these old directors out of thier rocking chair and see the real world,,, Only the directors get the hands on that needed..
The district directors have a decent handle on what is going on...
The others ...
I am introducing a plan that would call for all positions (other than senior men, women, boys HS, girls HS and refs) to be elected by the local associations..
In addition, a change to HEP, where we concentrate on the parents education... probbaly using a form for them to read and sign... which a lot of associations already use... Fair Play will be an enforcement used for vicious, cheap panalties against the player(possibly coaches) not the team.
Well said Elliot, its the OTHERS that hold their spot to be so called expert when thier own hockey days have passed them by 30 years ago, thier must be a great perk plan for staying on so long, but the longer they staythe more bizzare stuff gets mandated...I wonder what they would have said if they had this in place when their kids or themselves were playing,,,,and believe me some of the parents back then were high strong also,,,,, MOST GOALS WIN
According to this District Bantam Director he has personally looked at every scoresheet from every game (last year and this year) in his District and has included every penalty in a spreadsheet. He stated that penalties (especially major) have declined. Which in turn we informed him that we thought the reason why penalties have declined is two reasons. 1. Officiating has been more relaxed toward the end of the season (less penalties called) 2. Players and Coaches know that their team has to play "nice" in order to make the playoffs-it really has nothing to do with the New Standards of Play-they are just playing the "system". If anything Mn Hockey is teaching our young adults if they don't like something they should conduct themselves in a manipulative manner and they will get what they want!
I would like to respond to UWhockey88's comment posted on 2-15 after his discussion with a District Bantam Director. I was present in that discussion and I think you misinterpreted what was said. What I heard... Everyone disliked FPP when they came out, there are several coaches who understand why they are there and are adjusting the way they teach the kids. Mayo Clinic is involved to try to reduce the number of injuries and increase the skill level of hockey. He said he was going to bring up a different way of calculating the FPP. He suggested a violation system instead of minutes. Today 7 minor violations equals the 14 minutes. A checking from behind penalty is a single act that consists of 2 penalties and 85% of the FPPs allowed. I would guess he will bringing this up for discussion at the next HEP meeting. Has he ever played hockey, don't know. He is an administrator. Was the CEO of Medtronic a heart surgeon? ...or the district manager of UPS a former truck driver? Totally irrelevant comment on whether or not he has played organized hockey as he doesn't coach or ref.
UWhockey88 wrote:How about official training and accountability
Who are you going to get to have this extra training and accountability? If you would like to volunteer I am sure there are a lot of local officials associations that could use the help. I would recommend contacting them and seeing what you can do to make things better.
UWhockey88 wrote:How about official training and accountability
Who are you going to get to have this extra training and accountability? If you would like to volunteer I am sure there are a lot of local officials associations that could use the help. I would recommend contacting them and seeing what you can do to make things better.
I think accountability is possible. I think MH could do something similiar to the system used by the MSHSL, which allows the coaches to evaluate referees based on a 5 point system 1 low/5 high, after every game. The system is effective and it would help official associations see which officials are consistantly getting good marks, and vica versa. There are different area's of officiating to critique. Game Management, Communication, Consistancy, etc. I think such a system would not only help officials recognize who may or may not need work, and who should be officiating playoff games, it also gives coaches a forum to be heard which would most likely help control some of the rants that we all hear coaches go on during the game.
Duluth East Hockey Fan wrote:I think accountability is possible. I think MH could do something similiar to the system used by the MSHSL, which allows the coaches to evaluate referees based on a 5 point system 1 low/5 high, after every game. The system is effective and it would help official associations see which officials are consistantly getting good marks, and vica versa. There are different area's of officiating to critique. Game Management, Communication, Consistancy, etc. I think such a system would not only help officials recognize who may or may not need work, and who should be officiating playoff games, it also gives coaches a forum to be heard which would most likely help control some of the rants that we all hear coaches go on during the game.
Ok, first the MSHSL is a joke. The home coaches pick the refs they want for each game during the regular season so they should be getting good rating from one coach every game. Anyway back on task. I know that the association that I work in has a ref review form right on it's site that coaches can fill out good or bad. The problem is that it is only filled out when there is a problem.
I will remind you that it is armature hockey and you have armature officials. A lot of the officials associations have a hard enough time retaining refs with the abuse that is taken. That and there are as many as 40 games a night and more on weekends in one association and you just can't have enough good officials to do that many games.
In the association I belong to there is a rating system and the refs that are rated the highest (based on years and evaluations) are given the playoff games.
As Elliot has stated on the dangerous and cheap penalties, why not just count the injury potential penalties, those penalties which can go from minor to major to game misconduct and include the behavior ones, the misconduct and game misc? Other penalties such as holding,interferance, delay of game, too many men, tripping would be that just penalties, these are in the category of game penalties.
The problem would be with the volunteers keeping the score book, there are some who have trouble now this would increase some of the problems.
On injuries not being on the score sheet correct, but do you really think that a parent or coach who has a player injuried doesn't make a call to some one involved with the league and I also believe that most Districts have a form to fill out. I also find it hard to believe that there are officials that would not call a major penalty at this point in the season, if that is true,reports should be filed with the Supervisor of Officials for that District and hopefully that official will have a vacation for a while.
greybeard58 has a good point! HEP was never intended to take out the physical part of hockey. Part of its goal is intended to take the dangerous, injury potential hits out of the game. A successful program needs to be constantly honed to keep that sharp edge. A successful program that is not worked will eventually be cast aside.
Try this for an arguement... our district champions at the A Bantam, B1 Bantam, A PeeWee, and B1 PeeWee lost a total of 4 FPPs combined! This is about 75 games. Are these the best teams or not? Congratulations to these coaches for teaching hockey within the guidelines they were given. Congratulations to the kids for being smart and coachable! The MOST goals won.
