Should they get rid of the HEP point?

[buckeyehockey17]

In Bantam A this year Jefferson has a better record than Chaska and Minnetonka however they are behind them in the standings because of the fair play point. I am also under the impression that Birnsville is in the same situation

Thoughts?

[bantamA01]

lol, that sucks for teams who earned their spots up top but its good for the lower teams who arent as good so they have a chance at getting a top spot

[Eastonhockey16]

In my opinion, the point stops you from playing to your full potential. If you've got 6 or 7 penalties, all of a sudden you can't play aggressively or else you'll lose the extra point you need.

But then again, it keeps a lot of teams from cheap-shotting if the refs are at least decent.

[Bash Brother]

The Hep point is a disgrace to hockey

[demongoed]

I like the HEP point. It has really brought to the forefront the need for teams, especially the coaches, to focus on skills and quit cheap, sometimes dangerous play. Keep in mind this is youth hockey, with one of the primary goals of teaching kids the skills they need to be successful as they move on.

The problem I have, especially this year, is that success on the ice, which is supposed to be under the kids' control, is now, more than ever, in the hands of subjective, inconsistent refs. The kids don't know from game to game what interference is, what hooking is, etc. They get called for something in one game, but not in another. What are they learning with that? USA Hockey put in place these new standards of play, that directly impact HEP, but Minnesota Hockey hasn't, in my opinion done their part to make sure the standards are administered in any consistent manner.

Now you have teams in the above situation that lose ground in their district standings not because of poor play but because of bad reffing. I assume that things will even out next year, as the refs get better at enforcing the new standards and teams get better at adhering to them. I just wish that Minnesota Hockey would have suspended HEP this year. Being down one or two skaters due to penalties is punishment enough, especially when it happens 6,7,8, or 10 times in a game.

[buckeyehockey17]

i agree with what demon said plus a bad call could loose a teams hep point and their chane of winning a game

[ice00breaker]

I dont like the idea of it at all. When a player gets a penalty, his team is already punished by him having to sit in the box while killing the penalty. Another point as stated by demongoed is that inconsistent refs can ultimately dictate a district's standings. With the inconsistency the HEP system basically comes down to a roulette.

[Pucknutz69]

They don't matter in District Playoffs, Regionals or State. A couple of teams didn't care about them anyways and played smash-mouth hockey all season. Case in point.......Tartan. Didn't care about HEP points played physical and will still win districts and might make a trip to state.

Some of you are talking about 2 different things HEP points and the enforcement of the new rules. Make the calls on the new rules but get rid of the HEP points, they just put bad soft teams higher in the standings.

[SotaH0ck14]

the hep point should be taken out it is just an embarassment to district play

[southernfool]

The other problem with HEP points especially as you near the end of the year is that in a lot of cases 1 or 2 points are separating teams in the standings. Teams are focused on earning the HEP point rather than playing hockey. I've seen some teams play hard the first periods (they get a few penalties) and once they had a lead they coasted. It was very obvious that the coach told them between periods to not play physical, don't go in hard to the corners and make sure you don't risk getting a bad call against you.

What are kids learning from that? How to work the system to get a point or how to play hockey? It's a shame because even good teams are having to play a totally different game in some situations just to avoid the 'bad' call of a ref on a check. I like the enforcement of the rules but HEP points in standings needs to go or be devalued a lot more.

[takespaceaway]

HEP POINTS SHOULD GO. THE LAST TIME I CHECKED(NO PUN HERE) THE SPORT OF HOCKEY IS A PHYSICAL SPORT. YOU SHOULDN'T LOSE ONE OR TWO SPOTS IN THE SEEDINGS BECAUSE YOU ARE PLAYING THE SPORT. NOW IF YOU INCUR MAJOR PENALTIES MAYBE SOME POINTS SHOULD BE TAKEN AWAY BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT PLAYING THE SPORT,YOU ARE TRYING TO HURT OR INJURE A PLAYER.

WHAT WOULD CARY EADES HAVE DONE AT WARROAD IF THEY WOULD HAVE HAD HEP POINTS WHEN HE COACHED? WARROAD WOULD HAVE BEEN SEEDED 9 OUT OF 8 TEAMS BECAUSE OF THEIR CHEAP PLAY!!!!

[tomASS]

This year the mistake was not adjusting the benchmark for earning the "barney point" to rise to the same level of the expected increase in penalty calls with the new focus of enforcement of penalties that were not applied or interpreted the same in past years. It needed to be raised this year by at least 2, and probably 4 minutes.

They also did not take in consideration the wide inconsistencies of how the new enforcement of current penalties would be applied game to game or district to district. No one seems to be on the same page which is the biggest problem as many stated above.

Sometimes you can teach these young men all you want about keeping things above board but in the heat of action it doesn't help.

Instead of penalizing a team's league points, penalize the player like they do in soccer.

I would almost prefer to see a checking from behind be an instant ejection if it was severe with intent. Careless one in the main ice area the same penalty as it is currently = 2/10 but only count this as 4-8 minutes worth of penalty time toward the barney point (although most referees will call cross-checking on this one) Along the boards with more possibility for injury gone (like a red card in soccer) and then the player also has to serve a minimum 1 game suspension or if extremely bad - 3 games - That will teach the player involved. Hurts the team without the player's service but not directly the hep point.

I know it creates more administrative work - but a coach, team, parent, can't always control a player's action on a particular play.

the hep point this year loses it's purpose plain and simple.

[lessercountryfolk]

i absolutely hate it. players who lost their teams headpoint over a real bad call feel embaressed and might get sat by their coaches. Someone said this before, but Majors and Misconducts should be the only reason to lose this point. a Checking from behind is a maybe, a definate Misconduct to the refs is cause for losing it. there is a reason why the NHL doesnt have that rule, the more penalties there are, the better and exciting the game is.

[andy5]

In my opinion, the point stops you from playing to your full potential. If you've got 6 or 7 penalties, all of a sudden you can't play aggressively or else you'll lose the extra point you need.

But then again, it keeps a lot of teams from cheap-shotting if the refs are at least decent.

The new rules ruin the game altogether. You can hardly play aggresive anymore without getting a penelty.

[Duluth East Hockey Fan]

Mr. Elliott,

I know you asked for questions or concerns prior to the last Minnesota Hockey Board meeting. I can't remember all of them, but I believe HEP points were talked about on this message board under that thread.

If you have already addressed this i apologize, but did anything come about concerning HEP points and the program as a whole? I am of the same opinion of most of the poster's on this board, that HEP is not only a waste of money, it is an unfair evaluation technique to determine end of the year standings.

My understanding is, and correct me if I'm wrong, this program was a big push by Mark Jorgenson. I know the year prior to the HEP program taking shape, his magazine, Minnesota Hockey Journal wrote an article concerning the rough play at the Eden Praire Bantam/PeeWee A tournament. I have heard him speak and he is a big proponent of deminishing the amount of contact in youth hockey. The new standards of play seem to help with some of his concerns (which were not ALL completely unfounded) and the game is starting to get back to what it was intended for, skill and skating. So with all these new things that are in place now that were not when the HEP program started here, is there a chance that HEP will go away. I have to believe that the program has not worked as it was intended to. What are your feelings.

[elliott70]

HEP - Hockey Education Program is multi-faceted. Fair Play Points was just to be a measuring tool of how well the education process was working.

This was started by Ted Brill several years ago. After his death Dennis Green, Dave Bakke, Tom Slaird, Dave Margenau, and others brought it all together.

The idea was to educate all people involved in the hope that a cultural change could be achieved. Have less rowdy fans/parents; have coaches that stress skill development, have a program devised for everyone to bring kids along and to measure that growth, and have referees involved. Somewhere along the line teh sports medicine division of Mayo became involved led by Dr. Ainsly Smith. This is when fair play points were introduced to the program. I do not remember one District Director favoring the idea completely at that time. But, as with a lot of things, it became politically correct to support fair play points.

I am out spoken against the fair play point and may use it for games but not in deermining final seedings in District 16 next season. Basic reason is becauses in unfairly punishes the teams that have a change because of those above losing fair play points. An example.... Team #1 in the district , obviously the best team; #2, #3 & #4 are somewhat equal.
#1 drops to #2 because of fair play points. Now #3 has to play #1 in the semis and possibly losing a chance to advance. #3 should play #2 - no question about that. And I know in some parts of the state just making the playoffs depends on seeding. The #5 or #6 team may not be in the playoffs. Fair play points ARE NOT FAIR.

And then add all the reasoning above.

My idea is to revamp HEP to gear it toward sportsmanship education for parents, coaches, players, referees.
Make it effective yet simple to administer and monitor. Make it easier for all involved.

But I have not yet been able to put it all together, but appreciate all ideas.
I am working on restructure ideas for MN Hockey in its entirety. Including possibilties of an A1 A2 league, where A1 would be a higher level, maybe multi-associations and done in season with players being able to multi-roster.
Lots of cons to it, but we need to work on something.

Mark Elliott
Bemidji
Please post replys here or PM or email me.

[wannagototherink]

So Mr. Elliott, do you think HEP points will be repealed?

[elliott70]

If we (ME) can come up with an adequate plan to keep (revitalize the HEP program), the the Fair Play Points may go.

If you are against the Point, have your association and coaches notify your district director.
Grass roots, ground swell does not mean a lot at Mn Hockey, but it is needed to instigate a change.

emails are at www.minnesotahockey.org

[BP_Hockey]

I feel the A1/A2 idea is a very bad idea. Minnesota hockey has been just fine with the "A" level. Why do we need to change this? And if the answer is so lower associations can compete, that is garbage. Thats part of life, you are not always going to be the best. How long do we need to hold "little jonny's" hand???

[Reality Check]

I don't see anything wrong with Fair Play Points.
Coon Rapids gets crushed by Centennial 20-0 and gets a point.
Andover loses to Elk River in OT, loses there fair play, so they also get one point.

What's so unfair about that?

[denied xx]

it takes away from the top teams..
sure the worse teams can get points too..but whats 1 point going to do in the end?
HEP points should not be a part of the game.

[goldy313]

If you're going to use it, use it as a tiebreaker only. 1 kid gets a checking from behind penalty and the whole team loses a point. That's a lot of emphisis on 1 play. I have no problem sitting a kid for 12 minutes for such a foul, but it seems unreasonably harsh to penalize an entire team for that. Add to that often times depending on who is officiating the game the same play may be called entirely differently. Some see a minor hit from behind where little forcefull or intentional contact was made and will call a crosscheck others will automatically call a check from behind.

Has anyone ever seen a team lose a HEP point because of fan behavior? I haven't.

[wo wo wo kenny woo]

i think that the hep point is good because it rewards the teams that play hockey and not cheap. A team should be able to go into a game playing aggressive without getting a penalty. The point is eliminating all the cheap crap that used to be in the game. I think it is good because if a player does get a checking from behind 2 and 10 or a 5 minute major that should penalize the whole team. A player is part of a team, it is not a individual that wins a championship or playoffs.

[tomASS]

I don't see anything wrong with Fair Play Points.
Coon Rapids gets crushed by Centennial 20-0 and gets a point.
Andover loses to Elk River in OT, loses there fair play, so they also get one point.

What's so unfair about that?

typical MN attitude - everybody deserves a point ........or a gold star

[denied xx]

hahhahahhaha.