Rochester Youth Hockey...
Moderators: Mitch Hawker, east hockey, karl(east)
Rochester Youth Hockey...
In my opinion I really wished they would Split the A's and B's into 3 teams. One team strictly kids going to Century the other with kids going to Mayo and the other John Marshall with kids going to Lourdes being split up to the public school they would attend. This way getting the varsity coaches to explain to the head coaches their style of play so when they go to the high school level they have a good idea of whats happening.
Does anyone agree with this?
Does anyone agree with this?
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That would certainly be better for the highschools, but the bottom kids on the A team would be out of place, and all B teams and below would get killed in district play. Just think about the average amount of kids in each class, usually between 5-12 and chances are, at the youth level not all of those 5-12 kids will be able to compete at the A level let alone form a full team. Which then means that some kids will not be able to develop as much as if they were on the appropriate team. That would eventually catch up to them at the highschool level, and defeat the purpose of school specific teams. Rochester simply isn't big enough to support 3 competitive A and B teams. I don't know what RYHA needs to do, but something definatly needs to be changed in the coming years, with numbers only decreasing.
I think that the kids would do fine if you let them figure out that they had a real chance to be a player. Good A and B coaches and lots of ice time in Rochester until they are 2nd year pee wees and I guarantee that they would fair just fine in District play. They should be in District 4 anyways and not be traveling to the cities this would help build up the other programs in the area too! As sometimes their teams would be the best and beat the Rochester teams just like in High School.
I think that not moving forward to make more kids believe that if they work hard and get a good opportunity to play that they are going to have a good chance to be top players in High School and beyond.
To think that some adults and administrators can determine at squirt and pee wee level who are going to be good athletes in High School and beyond is humorous also by telling kids they are not any good and pushing them to other sports they are lost forever. Kids know what High School they will be attending and they can see if they work hard they will have a good chance to be good varsity players at thier high schools and maybe even more.
To think that getting beat as B pee wees or Bantams is that bad of a thing.
If you need to work harder and develop your skills to be a part of your high school team you need a chance to play against the best competition you can for the most years possible. I find that a lot of the players who never were A players end up being pretty darn good High School players and I know if they would have been playing A hockey for pee wees and bantams they may have even gotten better.
What do you think?
I thnk Rochester is a reverse inverted triangle. Upside down from what is needed. Good coaches and skills drills and handbooks for coaches and most importantly much more ice time for young players squirts pee wees
mites at the rinks for most of the days on Saturday and Sunday in the rinks...Outdoor ice is not available. Girls and Boys can play together until pee wees. You can have 3 on 3 games crossrink at the 4 rinks all day on Saturday and Sunday. You can have tournaments and then 4 times a year take your Mayo JM or Century Pee Wees Bantams to tournaments and measure the progress. I am sure they would do well.
You can also have district games for 2nd year pee wees and bantams
A and B Teams....
Tell me why we cannot make it cheaper and more fun and more open for more players. Why we cannot get rid of tryouts and stress to start the season for everyone until 2nd year Pee Wees. Make it fun and also make it important that the players know the skating skills puck handling skills and shooting skills and drills they should be trying to master at each level.
Make it simple fun and inviting. Hockey is fun!!!!!!
I think that not moving forward to make more kids believe that if they work hard and get a good opportunity to play that they are going to have a good chance to be top players in High School and beyond.
To think that some adults and administrators can determine at squirt and pee wee level who are going to be good athletes in High School and beyond is humorous also by telling kids they are not any good and pushing them to other sports they are lost forever. Kids know what High School they will be attending and they can see if they work hard they will have a good chance to be good varsity players at thier high schools and maybe even more.
To think that getting beat as B pee wees or Bantams is that bad of a thing.
If you need to work harder and develop your skills to be a part of your high school team you need a chance to play against the best competition you can for the most years possible. I find that a lot of the players who never were A players end up being pretty darn good High School players and I know if they would have been playing A hockey for pee wees and bantams they may have even gotten better.
What do you think?
I thnk Rochester is a reverse inverted triangle. Upside down from what is needed. Good coaches and skills drills and handbooks for coaches and most importantly much more ice time for young players squirts pee wees
mites at the rinks for most of the days on Saturday and Sunday in the rinks...Outdoor ice is not available. Girls and Boys can play together until pee wees. You can have 3 on 3 games crossrink at the 4 rinks all day on Saturday and Sunday. You can have tournaments and then 4 times a year take your Mayo JM or Century Pee Wees Bantams to tournaments and measure the progress. I am sure they would do well.
You can also have district games for 2nd year pee wees and bantams
A and B Teams....
Tell me why we cannot make it cheaper and more fun and more open for more players. Why we cannot get rid of tryouts and stress to start the season for everyone until 2nd year Pee Wees. Make it fun and also make it important that the players know the skating skills puck handling skills and shooting skills and drills they should be trying to master at each level.
Make it simple fun and inviting. Hockey is fun!!!!!!
Fighting Sioux Forever
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Rochester
Soiux Fan,
You have some excellent ideas there hopefully someone in the RYHA will buy into it. I have heard good thing of Zmolek, sounds like he works alot on skill with his kids. How are the other coaches? If You look back when Rochester had their hay-day, there were alot of ex Mustang dads involved in the program 70s and early 80s. What kind of people are coaching these days?
You have some excellent ideas there hopefully someone in the RYHA will buy into it. I have heard good thing of Zmolek, sounds like he works alot on skill with his kids. How are the other coaches? If You look back when Rochester had their hay-day, there were alot of ex Mustang dads involved in the program 70s and early 80s. What kind of people are coaching these days?
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Sioux Fan more later but quickly....what are your ideas to make it cheaper? We already have some of the lowest fee's around. I think the real stigma is early morning practice.
Secondly Hey Day's of RYHA are over. The city has grown beyond belief. That growth has come from non-traditional hockey country.
Secondly Hey Day's of RYHA are over. The city has grown beyond belief. That growth has come from non-traditional hockey country.
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Let's not make this a finger pointing thread like St. Cloud.
It's simple, life & demographics change everything. Why isn't Grand Rapids, Bloomington, Richfield, Eveleth hockey powerhouse like the 70's & 80's? They were booming towns with young families. Now they are made up of mostly 50 + people or non-white hockey people.
Rochesters numbers according to the 2000 census: 85,000 people but only 32% of households had children under 18. There were only 12,000 kids under the age 14 with approximately 15% of them being non-white.
Times have changed. Playstation, Steeplechase & Text Messaging are in, physical activity is out. It's time we stop trying to be like the old days and move forward with what we have.
Somewhere in an earlier post someone mentioned High School coaches involvement. Outside of Haskins, no high school coach shows any interest in the kids. Everyone can't point fingers as to why, but if it were truely about the kids and not about egos, they would be at the rink helping out. But on the other hand you can't blame the HS coaches when their school board and leadership don't do a thing to help alleviate an ice shortage. Yea Ha they will buy more ice once the new rink is up. How about build one like Apple Valley or Lakeville and many others.
In closing there are many people working hard to give kids the chance to play the greatest game on earth. Let the kid's be kids and If you don't like what you see get involved. Times have changed, I bet 80% of Rochesters current population doesn't know of the Mustang glory days. Maybe a great donor can be found and banners be put up in the new rink to bring Rochester hockey history and lore to our children.
It's simple, life & demographics change everything. Why isn't Grand Rapids, Bloomington, Richfield, Eveleth hockey powerhouse like the 70's & 80's? They were booming towns with young families. Now they are made up of mostly 50 + people or non-white hockey people.
Rochesters numbers according to the 2000 census: 85,000 people but only 32% of households had children under 18. There were only 12,000 kids under the age 14 with approximately 15% of them being non-white.
Times have changed. Playstation, Steeplechase & Text Messaging are in, physical activity is out. It's time we stop trying to be like the old days and move forward with what we have.
Somewhere in an earlier post someone mentioned High School coaches involvement. Outside of Haskins, no high school coach shows any interest in the kids. Everyone can't point fingers as to why, but if it were truely about the kids and not about egos, they would be at the rink helping out. But on the other hand you can't blame the HS coaches when their school board and leadership don't do a thing to help alleviate an ice shortage. Yea Ha they will buy more ice once the new rink is up. How about build one like Apple Valley or Lakeville and many others.
In closing there are many people working hard to give kids the chance to play the greatest game on earth. Let the kid's be kids and If you don't like what you see get involved. Times have changed, I bet 80% of Rochesters current population doesn't know of the Mustang glory days. Maybe a great donor can be found and banners be put up in the new rink to bring Rochester hockey history and lore to our children.
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well first of all... they shouldnt have combined rochester north and rochester south to make one team... second of all.. do u think the rest of the d8 teams want to drive 1 hour down to rochester to play? personally i dont.. they should change districts.. go play albert lea and owatanna.. the teams that r closer to them
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Got this off stickstats.com what are peoples thoughts on this
On January 10th, 2007, District Director Rich Rakness put forward a proposal to form a new InterDistrict league format with District 4. The proposal is a starting point for discussions and has been received and discussed in District 4, as well.
The proposal would form three geographical leagues for the two districts. The North, South, and West leagues could be applied to any appropriate level of play. The main idea is to help curb the extensive travel times that are found in these two large districts.
There is also a discussion that would divide District 8 into three geographic league areas. As example we could form an East (Cottage Grove, Hastings, Hudson, River Falls, South St Paul, Woodbury), a West (Eagan, Lakeville North, Lakeville South, Farmington, Rosemount, West St. Paul, Inver Grove Heights), and a South (Dodge County, La Crescent, Northfield, Red Wing, Rochester, Winona). Based on number of teams at each level, teams would play the other teams in their division twice and fill in their schedule with games from the other two divisions. Once again, the main idea is to help curb the travel times.
Rich has asked that the District 8 Associations discuss these proposals and get any feedback to him by February 1, 2007. He would like to arrange a meeting with the folks from District 4 for sometime in February, 2007. The meeting would include the two District Directors, members of the two District Boards, and representatives of the various District Associations.
Once again, please forward any questions/feedback to Rich by February 1, 2007.
On January 10th, 2007, District Director Rich Rakness put forward a proposal to form a new InterDistrict league format with District 4. The proposal is a starting point for discussions and has been received and discussed in District 4, as well.
The proposal would form three geographical leagues for the two districts. The North, South, and West leagues could be applied to any appropriate level of play. The main idea is to help curb the extensive travel times that are found in these two large districts.
There is also a discussion that would divide District 8 into three geographic league areas. As example we could form an East (Cottage Grove, Hastings, Hudson, River Falls, South St Paul, Woodbury), a West (Eagan, Lakeville North, Lakeville South, Farmington, Rosemount, West St. Paul, Inver Grove Heights), and a South (Dodge County, La Crescent, Northfield, Red Wing, Rochester, Winona). Based on number of teams at each level, teams would play the other teams in their division twice and fill in their schedule with games from the other two divisions. Once again, the main idea is to help curb the travel times.
Rich has asked that the District 8 Associations discuss these proposals and get any feedback to him by February 1, 2007. He would like to arrange a meeting with the folks from District 4 for sometime in February, 2007. The meeting would include the two District Directors, members of the two District Boards, and representatives of the various District Associations.
Once again, please forward any questions/feedback to Rich by February 1, 2007.
Last night in a 5-2 vote the Olmstead County Board may have put a stake in the future of hockey in Rochester. The RYHA is funding a new arena in Rochester primarily through proceeds from charitable gambling; pulltabs. 2/3 of the arenas 6 million dollar price tag is being funded by RYHA, which said it would not raise fees to pay for the rink, instead it would be paid for by tourament fees, charitable gambling, and user fees. Prior to approval the Olmsted County Board worried what would happen if the charitable gambling revenue tailed off, but RYHA assured the board that that wouldn't happen. Worried about funding the Rochester School District refused to put any money into the new arena.
From the Jan. 16th Post Bulletin:
Money spent on pull-tabs helps at local bars helps support local orginizations like Rochester Youth Hockey. The Association has spent 2.3 million over the years to help build hockey arenas says Tom Konakowitz who runs the gambling program.
Pull-tab revenue fell 15% the first year after Olmsted County adopted its restraunt based smoking ban, and Konakowitz worries about a repeat if the ew proposed ordinance is passed. The association depends on the $215,000 per year revenue to repay its obligation on Graham Arena IV.
"If I lose (another) 15-40% I don't know if I can meet our obligation." Konakowitz said. -end-
The Minnesota Gambling Contorl Board which regulates all gambling in Minesota shows a charitable gambling revenue decline of 25% in communities with a smoking ban. Bloomington shows a 70% decline, people don't stop gambling they just go where they can smoke like outside of Henepin County or to Mystic Lake or Treasure Island. Anoka County with no smoking ban saw its revenues rise.
From the PB Jan. 17 in weighing the pros and Cons of a smoking ban:
-Tavern owners predict a 15% drop in pull-tab gambling and payouts to charities. They predict individual player fees to nearly double should a ban cut into pull tab revenue. They also suggest that if charitable gambling loses its ability to fund the Graham Complex taxes will be needed to offset the losses. -end-
I'm neither for or against a ban, I'm just showing the likely consequences of their latest fiasco. In an association with decling numbers the last thing they need is a doubling of fees. The less kids playing hockey the more the burden will fall on others, the more burden the less kids play because they can't afford it. The RYHA, Rochester City Council -Denny "I never met a building program I didn't support ( hey Ziggy he'll build you a stadium)" Hanson in particular, and the Olmsted Couty Board - led by an RYHA board member really screwed this one up.
From the Jan. 16th Post Bulletin:
Money spent on pull-tabs helps at local bars helps support local orginizations like Rochester Youth Hockey. The Association has spent 2.3 million over the years to help build hockey arenas says Tom Konakowitz who runs the gambling program.
Pull-tab revenue fell 15% the first year after Olmsted County adopted its restraunt based smoking ban, and Konakowitz worries about a repeat if the ew proposed ordinance is passed. The association depends on the $215,000 per year revenue to repay its obligation on Graham Arena IV.
"If I lose (another) 15-40% I don't know if I can meet our obligation." Konakowitz said. -end-
The Minnesota Gambling Contorl Board which regulates all gambling in Minesota shows a charitable gambling revenue decline of 25% in communities with a smoking ban. Bloomington shows a 70% decline, people don't stop gambling they just go where they can smoke like outside of Henepin County or to Mystic Lake or Treasure Island. Anoka County with no smoking ban saw its revenues rise.
From the PB Jan. 17 in weighing the pros and Cons of a smoking ban:
-Tavern owners predict a 15% drop in pull-tab gambling and payouts to charities. They predict individual player fees to nearly double should a ban cut into pull tab revenue. They also suggest that if charitable gambling loses its ability to fund the Graham Complex taxes will be needed to offset the losses. -end-
I'm neither for or against a ban, I'm just showing the likely consequences of their latest fiasco. In an association with decling numbers the last thing they need is a doubling of fees. The less kids playing hockey the more the burden will fall on others, the more burden the less kids play because they can't afford it. The RYHA, Rochester City Council -Denny "I never met a building program I didn't support ( hey Ziggy he'll build you a stadium)" Hanson in particular, and the Olmsted Couty Board - led by an RYHA board member really screwed this one up.
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ReDistricting
This idea stinks also. RF and Hudson suck and SSP will be lucky to have a team at each level.freighttrain wrote:Got this off stickstats.com what are peoples thoughts on this
On January 10th, 2007, District Director Rich Rakness put forward a proposal to form a new InterDistrict league format with District 4. The proposal is a starting point for discussions and has been received and discussed in District 4, as well.
The proposal would form three geographical leagues for the two districts. The North, South, and West leagues could be applied to any appropriate level of play. The main idea is to help curb the extensive travel times that are found in these two large districts.
There is also a discussion that would divide District 8 into three geographic league areas. As example we could form an East (Cottage Grove, Hastings, Hudson, River Falls, South St Paul, Woodbury), a West (Eagan, Lakeville North, Lakeville South, Farmington, Rosemount, West St. Paul, Inver Grove Heights), and a South (Dodge County, La Crescent, Northfield, Red Wing, Rochester, Winona). Based on number of teams at each level, teams would play the other teams in their division twice and fill in their schedule with games from the other two divisions. Once again, the main idea is to help curb the travel times.
Rich has asked that the District 8 Associations discuss these proposals and get any feedback to him by February 1, 2007. He would like to arrange a meeting with the folks from District 4 for sometime in February, 2007. The meeting would include the two District Directors, members of the two District Boards, and representatives of the various District Associations.
Once again, please forward any questions/feedback to Rich by February 1, 2007.
Why do teams in D8 drive through and around teams in D6 to get to one another? IE; Lakeville to Woodbury you drive through AV, Burnsville and Eastview. I think CG and Woodbury should be put in D2.
How does this look?
D6
Bloom Jeff
Bloom Ken
Chaska
EP
Edina
Minnetonka
PL
Shakopee
Waconia
ADD
Eagan, WSP and River Heights (IGH/SSP)
D8
Dodge County
Farmington
Lacresent - make them join with Winona
Lakeville North and South
Northfield
Red Wing
Rochester
Rosemount
Winona - see Lacresent
ADD
Burnsville, Eastview and Apple Valley
D2
Forest Lake
Mahtomedi
Mounds View
North St Paul
Roseville
Stillwater
Tartan
White Bear Lake
ADD
Cottage Grove, Hastings and Woodbury
It would even the Districts out 2 with 12 teams and 1 with 11, it would also spread the top teams around instead of D6 being so strong, D8 only having 4 to 5 top teams and D2 adding some of each ( Woodbury Strong , CG middle and Hastings middle. ) It would also spread some of the travel around a little. All these teams see each other in tournaments so you wouldn't get sick of playing the same teams all the time.
What do you think?
You'd be better off adding Owatonna, Faribault, Austin and Albert Lea - everyone on or East of I35 to District 8 and leaving the South Metro schools up in 6. Farmington, Lakeville and maybe Hastings are all quasi metro and should stay in 8. Lakeville to Owatonna and Faribault is about a 30 minute trip, probably less than Hudson or Woodbury. Getting Rochester out of the alignment their in now might be the kick in the pants needed to get them to go to 3 teams/programs. It also follows fairly closely the current high school section alignment.
Rakness is trying to keep away from a lawsuit from RYHA, that's all.
Rakness is trying to keep away from a lawsuit from RYHA, that's all.
Realignment
Pucknutz:
Good start but I would tweek you D6 teams a little and not add WSP and River Heights. They're closer to D2 teams like Tartan.
Good start but I would tweek you D6 teams a little and not add WSP and River Heights. They're closer to D2 teams like Tartan.
Sounds Like Rich Rakness has a good idea and a great thing for Rochester even if the current leadership cannot see the future is to make more kids know that if they work hard and practice they will have a good future in hockey.
Where would you put Mankato, New Ulm St. Peter etc...?
I think that the Western schools should have their own district like Rakness has. Makes great sense. Rochester breaks program to 3 teams
Mayo, JM, Century joins with Lakeville South North, Austin Albert Lea Winona LeCrescent Owatonna Faribault Dodge County This would be a good natural district.
I love this idea and I think it would be good for hockey players over the whole region. I just heard on the All-Star game that Patick Marleau is from a town of 75. That is what we need an organizational structure that the young players know that if they come to the rink and practice hard they will get a chance to play and get better. I love this. Way to go Mr Rakness. Good Luck.....
Where would you put Mankato, New Ulm St. Peter etc...?
I think that the Western schools should have their own district like Rakness has. Makes great sense. Rochester breaks program to 3 teams
Mayo, JM, Century joins with Lakeville South North, Austin Albert Lea Winona LeCrescent Owatonna Faribault Dodge County This would be a good natural district.
I love this idea and I think it would be good for hockey players over the whole region. I just heard on the All-Star game that Patick Marleau is from a town of 75. That is what we need an organizational structure that the young players know that if they come to the rink and practice hard they will get a chance to play and get better. I love this. Way to go Mr Rakness. Good Luck.....
Fighting Sioux Forever
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Re: Realignment
Do you mean by talent or location?blueblood wrote:Pucknutz:
Good start but I would tweek you D6 teams a little and not add WSP and River Heights. They're closer to D2 teams like Tartan.
Also I missed the Owatonna , Faribault teams you could add them to D8 just based on the population size is about the same a Red Wing and Farmington.
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What would be there reasoning? What is stopping any team from sueing then? Do what is right for the majority, Rac. If Rochester wants to play the city teams then break up 1 A team for every high school, build a rink in Cannon Falls for all thier home games, so we aren't driving down on a Tuesday night for an 9pm Bantam A game and we aren't home until 11:45 pm. They play in all the tournaments up here why do they need to play all there district games with us?goldy313 wrote:You'd be better off adding Owatonna, Faribault, Austin and Albert Lea - everyone on or East of I35 to District 8 and leaving the South Metro schools up in 6. Farmington, Lakeville and maybe Hastings are all quasi metro and should stay in 8. Lakeville to Owatonna and Faribault is about a 30 minute trip, probably less than Hudson or Woodbury. Getting Rochester out of the alignment their in now might be the kick in the pants needed to get them to go to 3 teams/programs. It also follows fairly closely the current high school section alignment.
Rakness is trying to keep away from a lawsuit from RYHA, that's all.
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What's wrong with you city folk that can't drive an hour to a game. Check out the drive times for district's 10-16. I agree with the 9pm week day game being a crazy idea but we should look at what others are doing
Yes we need to redistrict but quit using drive times as the excuse. There are some great ideas posted here and I don't know why MN Hockey hasn't stepped to the plate and made something happen. Like RYHA will sue, with what money?
Yes we need to redistrict but quit using drive times as the excuse. There are some great ideas posted here and I don't know why MN Hockey hasn't stepped to the plate and made something happen. Like RYHA will sue, with what money?
Being from D6 there is no way I would swap Eagan, WSP, River Heights for AV, Eastview, Burnsville. You could make a new district that has:
Eagan
WSP
River Heights
AV
Eastview
Rosemount
Burnsville
PL
Shakopee
Most of those teams are south of the river.
Just kick Rochester out of District8. If they want Metro competition then drive to the Metro. I agree, let them sue.
Eagan
WSP
River Heights
AV
Eastview
Rosemount
Burnsville
PL
Shakopee
Most of those teams are south of the river.
Just kick Rochester out of District8. If they want Metro competition then drive to the Metro. I agree, let them sue.
Redistricting
Pucknutz:
Closer in location. The teams I been associated with for the past 6 years have never played WSP or River Hts, so I can't comment on their talent.
Closer in location. The teams I been associated with for the past 6 years have never played WSP or River Hts, so I can't comment on their talent.
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Why in all these senarios does Lakeville end up stuck in district 8. There are no fewer than a dozen teams located within 20 minutes of lakeville and somehow we still drive to albert lea and owatonna and rochester. Just bite the bullet, put rochester in district four ...where they belong...and very little needs to change. Smaller programs like farmington and northfield are a much better fit in district 4. Lakeville is a large and growing program which should compete with similar programs in the south metro. Yes, there is some tweaking to be done but the solutions seem far more palatable when you remove rochester from the mix.
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Why is Rochester such an island. It's a quick easy drive down 52 for everyone except Lakeville.
This was in the thread where it belonged but I'll put it here because this is where this thread is: Simple is good. Sections like High School with two classes. You play an open schedule from Nov. through Jan. In Feb. there is a sectional tourney. Top two teams from each section and class move forward to the State tourney. You finish with A playing AA for the Brooks Cup.
It would be cool to put levels all over the state but think of the whole thing at the Super Rink or better yet. All Championship games at the U or X.
There will never be a perfect district set up so I think the about would be a nice answer.
I saw this too and didn't think it was too bad except Lakeville. I would add Eagan also.
D8
Dodge County
Farmington
Lacresent - make them join with Winona
Lakeville North and South
Northfield
Red Wing
Rochester
Rosemount
Winona - see Lacresent
ADD
Burnsville, Eastview and Apple Valley
This was in the thread where it belonged but I'll put it here because this is where this thread is: Simple is good. Sections like High School with two classes. You play an open schedule from Nov. through Jan. In Feb. there is a sectional tourney. Top two teams from each section and class move forward to the State tourney. You finish with A playing AA for the Brooks Cup.
It would be cool to put levels all over the state but think of the whole thing at the Super Rink or better yet. All Championship games at the U or X.
There will never be a perfect district set up so I think the about would be a nice answer.
I saw this too and didn't think it was too bad except Lakeville. I would add Eagan also.
D8
Dodge County
Farmington
Lacresent - make them join with Winona
Lakeville North and South
Northfield
Red Wing
Rochester
Rosemount
Winona - see Lacresent
ADD
Burnsville, Eastview and Apple Valley
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All you south metro people quit whining get in your Lexus, BMW or Mercedes and Enjoy a talk with your kid on the way down to Rochester. You don't hear Lakeville
whining about getting out of Section one in High School. Rochester
always puts good quality team on the ice. Get rid of Hudson and River Falls both long drives for poor quality team.
whining about getting out of Section one in High School. Rochester
always puts good quality team on the ice. Get rid of Hudson and River Falls both long drives for poor quality team.